318 "Rebuild ish"

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prorac1

prorac1

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We recently posted a thread titled, "interesting discovery inside 318", reguarding finding a mis matched piston inside the engine upon tear down.

Thanks to the vast knowledge of members here on a FABO, we believe that it is a service replacement piston, and although looks different, is comparable in weight and compression.

The engine is a 1983 318 out of my uncles Ramcharger plow truck.

This engine is being "freshened" for use in our grand father, father, and son/grandson restoration project. A 1963 Plymouth Valiant Signet 200 2 door hardtop.

The restoration thread can be found here for those interested.

Father, Son, and Grand Father project. 1963 Valiant

Upon looking up parts, we have discovered that, with careful spending, for about $350 - $400 we can get a gasket kit, piston rings, rod bearings, main bearings, timing chain, oil pump, camshaft, lifters, and valve springs.

We pulled a couple main and rod Bearing caps and everything looked really good.

Here's the plan. Deglaze the cylinders with a three finger hone. Throughly clean the block and rotating assembly, and assemble with new rings and bearings.

For the cylinder heads, were planing on disassembling them and cleaning them throughly, than doing a couple scrubs with a hand lapper to confirm valve to seat relationship and replacing the valve stem seals. Than measuring between the stem seal and retainer to see how much lift we can run without making things complicated.

For a camshaft we're considering going with this grind from summit racing

Summit Racing® Classic Cam and Lifter Kits SUM-K6901

There was a local guy with a nice Engle/ Hughes grind, but at almost .500 lift on a factory rocker, I'm afraid it would be a little hard on a cheap valve spring and the factory push rods.

The rest of the engine will consist of a Holley street dominator intake donated by Uncle Geoff, Cosgig!, a Holley 390 4bbl (could be changed out for other carbs we have), and factory 1964-1966 exhaust manifolds.

Any thoughts or input is welcomed.

Jason is very excited to rebuild ish his first engine.

Thanks for reading. Eric and Jason.

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One of the first orders of business is to eliminate the exhaust rotators.

From what we're reading you can replace the exhaust retainers with intake retainers and that's it.

Is there any difference in the spring pocket or seat?

Thanks
 
Id probably go one step down cam wise.
What gears and stall ?
 
We're looking at the melling VS-1120 valve springs.

Planing on using them with stock 1983 intake retainers on both sides to eliminate rotators.

Anybody have any experience with these springs?

Thanks. Eric and Jason.
 
Way too much cam... I usually don't do cam recommendations since there are people who do that for a living.... here comes the 'but'. But I wouldn't use one of those cheap catalog cams. Your oem cam was designed to use the Mopar .904 diameter lifter but those are Chevy grinds for a smaller Chevy diameter lifter. Take advantage of what Ma Mopar gave you and use a cam that optimizes your built in Mopar advantage. Call a cam expert... Jones Cams, Erson, Camcraft, Racer Brown. Tell them you want a Mopar cam for a .904 lifter.

Even Howard's has Mopar grinds... or Hughes. You'll pay a little more but quality is worth it.

Forget the big cam outfits or online retailers. Those guys only know what they see on their screens for the most part. Plus I'd ask about the cam core they are selling you... there is a big difference in quality.

You can get your oem cam reground, too.

One tip... be careful when cleaning those gasket surfaces with those small, round surfacing pads. They DO remove material... they are a no no in my shop.
 
prorac1 said:
We're looking at the melling VS-1120 valve springs.

Planing on using them with stock 1983 intake retainers on both sides to eliminate rotators.

Anybody have any experience with these springs?

Thanks. Eric and Jason.
Click to expand...

I think those springs are too big in diameter for you heads... better check. I think you need something more like a 1.437... better look into that. And the retainer has to match the spring diameter, too.

I have a couple sets of new sbm springs on hand... I'll look to see what size they are.
 
Krooser said:
I think those springs are too big in diameter for you heads... better check. I think you need something more like a 1.437... better look into that. And the retainer has to match the spring diameter, too.

I have a couple sets of new sbm springs on hand... I'll look to see what size they are.
Click to expand...

Ok. Thank you very much.

We haven't taken the springs off the heads and measured yet, but rock auto and melling recommend them for small cams in 273-360 small block mopars. But you are correct. We need to measure.
 
The springs I have are 1.437... very common. I would think you'd need a spring around 110 closed maybe 250-275 open pressure. You dont want more than your juice lifters can handle.

Im going to pm you...
 
With that one piston being replaced the bores are questionable. If you have excess taper and out-of-roundness in the bores and wear in the ring grooves, then the piston ring seal is going to be questionable/variable and the new rings will wear out quickly. So if this motor is for long term, trouble-free use, then you need to:
- Check all cylinder bores for taper and out-of-roundness
- Check ring grooves for width and for side clearance to new rings.

If the limits for taper and out of roundness are exceeded, then it is time for boring the block and new pistons.

BTW, there are better hones to use, and if you reuse the pistons, then you have to make sure you scrape the grooves clean. The square end of an old ring broken in pieces can be used or there are specific tools for that.
 
Thank you very much for all the help and advice guys.

I wouldn't say this engine is for the long term, as much as we are doing this to hedge our bets. Lol.

It will be a good learning experience for jason, and will make it better than it was.

But I'm trying to be very careful with this build since a lot of the money is Jason's, and he's on a tight budget.

So a custom cam is kinda out of the question. Lol
 
Not sure if you are aware with the early A manifolds you will need to grind on the left manifold and head below the port to allow it to bolt flush and not break the manifold.
 
I lot of engines just get re-ringed but just be aware that it can be a total crapshoot as to how it turns out. I've done it (when young and with little money) and had 'meh-OK' to not very good results. Pushing more HP through a worn block usually just makes the problem areas even more obvious and vexing.
 
That's kinda why I called the thread rebuild ish. Lol

This is more of s reason to pull an internal combustion engine apart. Let jason touch and clean (I will make sure to keep the wire and fiber wheels out of Dad and Jason's hands. Lol) all the parts , and try to make it a little better/more reliable, than it was when we started.

I would love to do it properly, but that's not in his budget for now. So I figured this would be a good compromise.

Thank you very very much. I greatly appreciate all the information and insite. I just wanted to explain where we were coming from.

Thank you again. Eric And Jason
 
chryslerfat said:
Not sure if you are aware with the early A manifolds you will need to grind on the left manifold and head below the port to allow it to bolt flush and not break the manifold.
Click to expand...

Yes sir. We already clearanced the head and manifold when we test fit the engine and manifolds in the car.

Thank you for looking out for us bro.

Thanks, Eric and Jason
 
nm9stheham said:
I lot of engines just get re-ringed but just be aware that it can be a total crapshoot as to how it turns out. I've done it (when young and with little money) and had 'meh-OK' to not very good results. Pushing more HP through a worn block usually just makes the problem areas even more obvious and vexing.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I've explained that to him and Dad. It's a crap shoot for sure.

I've also given thought to leaving the rings and bearings alone since it was a decent running engine (it just sat for a really really long time) and even leaving the original cam and lifters in it, slathering everything in assembly lube and putting it back together with a new timing chain and oil pump and crossing our fingers.

Maybe that would be a better choice?

I think it would be cool to put a small cam and valve springs in it, but maybe we are just inviting disaster?

That's what makes doing an engine in this fashion tricky. Where do you make the cut point?
 
Another suggestion... you might want to check the cam bearings.... some have pulled cams out to find the old bearing material flaking out of the shells.
 
nm9stheham said:
Another suggestion... you might want to check the cam bearings.... some have pulled cams out to find the old bearing material flaking out of the shells.
Click to expand...

Yeah. That's another concern. I've never installed my own cam bearings before. I've heard they are really tricky.

Just really hoping this dosent snowball. Lol

Avalanche!
 
I see what you're after and I think it's a viable idea. Actually I think it's a great idea. Let the kid get his hands dirty;learn some things; work with his Pops and hopefully be able see ;hear;and enjoy a satisfying result.
Cool!!
A while back I read an article in Hot Rod they did what you are doing with a 318. Took a used but not abused 318 motor and freshened it up. No machine work. Seems like after 60000 miles the engine was still going strong and it became the engine for their 400 hp build.
I personally would change very little. The engine is a system and one change leads to another and another $$$. You know the tune.

As far as camshafts; I'd be inclined to reuse the existing one. Make a tray to hold the lifters and pushrods so they go back in the exact same location.
If changing cams (I'd be suspicious of the cam bearings too) perhaps a factory 340 cam?
 
Rather than use a 3 finger stone glaze breaker, get yourself a "dingle ball", "blueberry", "ball flex hone", call it what you will, hone. It will be far superior for deglazing your cylinders than an old 3 finger, and you will have options for grit that 3 fingers generally don't give you. 30 seconds a cylinder and you are good to go.
 
Anybody have any good places to buy a cheap dingleberry? Grit recommendations?

Thanks again for all the help. Thank you so much
 
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