360 Rotating assembly

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doopdoop67

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So I have a 360 from a 75 power wagon. I’m going to have a machine shop clean up the cylinders but I have a feeling they will need to bore it. What’s a good upgrade for pistons? I’ve heard the stock rotating assembly is good but since I will be boring it is like to upgrade but don’t want to get too carried away. Any recommendations? I plan on running Edelbrock heads Edelbrock Performer RPM Cylinder Heads 60779
 
First, you should define your performance objective. Remember that your setup works as a system. I typically only bore the cylinders as much as necessary, if 0.030 over cleans them up that's all I'd bore it. 65'
 
First, you should define your performance objective. Remember that your setup works as a system. I typically only bore the cylinders as much as necessary, if 0.030 over cleans them up that's all I'd bore it. 65'
I just want to clean them up. It’s a car street motor maybe hit strip sometimes. Not looking to make more than 450 horse or anything. I’ve heard you can make 400 horse with a 360 pretty easily
 
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400 HP is obtainable with a stock stroke 360. I'd recommend a 93/91 octane pump gas build. 10:1 CR, performance camshaft, 2500-3500 stall converter and a 3:55 rear gear. Camshaft selection is a whole topic in itself. Vehicle weight, tire diameter, etc... 65'
 
400 HP is obtainable with a stock stroke 360. I'd recommend a 93/91 octane pump gas build. 10:1 CR, performance camshaft, 2500-3500 stall converter and a 3:55 rear gear. Camshaft selection is a whole topic in itself. Vehicle weight, tire diameter, etc... 65'
Still going to need to bore the block.
 
I used these on my last 360 la Speed-Pro Hypereutectic Pistons H116CP 30
Great upgrade piston. Compression can be around 9.5 to 1 maybe more if you have to deck your block and what you heads cc out too. The best part was when I had the shop check the balance they told me that they were so close to the same weight as stock pistons not much work needed to balance the assembley.
 
I used these on my last 360 la Speed-Pro Hypereutectic Pistons H116CP 30
Great upgrade piston. Compression can be around 9.5 to 1 maybe more if you have to deck your block and what you heads cc out too. The best part was when I had the shop check the balance they told me that they were so close to the same weight as stock pistons not much work needed to balance the assembley.
Seems like a good option, thank you
 
Well if yur going aluminum heads, then you IMO, need to crank up the compression ratio. In which case KB107s or similar pistons will drop in with about .012 deck height. That together with an .028 gasket will get you .040quench pretty near perfect.
That will get you a total chamber size of about 74.2cc, and therefore a compression ratio ( At .030 overbore) of about 11.1 perfect for aluminum heads.
This combo will like an Intake closing angle around 64*(+/-4*), and will pull like a freightrain. You could install up to 68*and not lose too much low-speed torque, while gaining significant top-end power.
A streeter does not need a ton of top-end power, because it usually has to be band-aided with gears and a hi-stall to get out of it's own way below 20 mph. Without performance gears the power doesn't usually arrive until about 40 mph at no tireslip.
A streeter doesn't need gobs of off-idle torque either, it just lights up the tires. and spinning ain't winning....... but it can sure be fun, if yur car is set up for it.
IMO, a streeter needs midrange torque at a comfortable roadspeed, to go hammer down in first gear.(comfortable means not so fast that the daymn car gets sideways and spins you out all the time.) For me that is about 30 mph. If I have to shift almost right away after that; it sucks. If it is able to hold that gear to 50mph, that also sucks. If the cam falls off too soon or doesn't come in soon enough, that also sucks.
Yur gonna want at least a 750 to go with that 64*Ica. And I highly recommend a mechanical secondary carb that opens all 4 barrels to atmosphere without respect to rpm or airflow; this puts you in charge of tirespin, cuz yur gonna have a lotta "trouble" with tirespin.
When you go cam-shopping, I highly recommend to get one with the fastest clearance ramps you can find. The difference between the fastest and the slower ones can be the equivalent of 1 or more camsizes at .050. Depending on the combo, the difference can be more than 20 horsepower. This too sucks when you find out about it .
If you are a streeter,and you buy a cam for the sound, well,in the end, that usually sucks too.
The difference in fuel usage at hiway speeds between 64* and 68*Icas on 110LSA cams, also sucks.

So if you go for the 68* Ica, And I highly recommend that you don't, make it on a 108LSA; you'll pick up around 6 or more degrees of power extraction, to help plump up fuel-economy on the hiway. Just make sure your hiway rpm is high enough that yur cruise vacuum has plateaued, or, about 2400, which requires about a minimum rear gear of 3.23s. No problem. No problem because to get that 68* cam, is gonna take about a 284* advertised cam. And that 284 is gonna torque-peak at around 3500, and for oh-chit! performance, that is gonna want 4.10s to hit 27mph at that 3500 ... so it will cruise at 65@3300@zero-slip, and no problem.. No you don't have to run 4.10s,lol. You can run the 3.23s and wait, and wait, and wait, for the power peak to hit at about 5000rpm/48mph, and shift at about 5300@50mph........ and watch the guy in the fast lane, motor on by you,lol.
The point is, that IMO that 68*Ica is way too big for a street-360. Even the 64* cam is pushing the limit. I've run both in about the same combo as you are now building, and of the two, the smaller 64*was the better choice.
IMO, 60/62* on a 108, would be even better, allowing a civilized 3.23 with an automatic and about a 2400TC about like a stock 340 convertor. Tighten yur seatbelt brother. With headers and for mostly street use, I would even tighten up the LSA to 106.
Ok this would allow you to run a 272/276/106+0 cam with compression duration of 118*, and extraction of 116*. The pressure might come in at 190psi, and that my friend will make your car into a rocket! Sorta just like mine. The power-peak might come in at around 5200/5300, making the torque peak around 3800, so just gear the car to hit that at whatever speed that you want it to be; 3.23s will make it 37mph. 3.55s (what I run) will get you 33. Badaboom!

BTW with those 116* of extraction,(of the 62*Ica cam) your point-to-point fuel economy should be better than any smogger-teen. This 116* is only 4* less than the 318LA cam, and they ran at 8.0 max compression ratio, generating about 135psi. If one of them can make 20mpg with that sorry-azz pressure, imagine if it had 190psi or more.
BTW2, mine likes a minimum running temperature of 207*F.Work up to it slowly, and you won't be disappointed.

Course you could build it up as a stocker, it won't cost any more,and probably no less either, lol.
As soon as you said aluminum heads, I got excited.
 
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Well if yur going aluminum heads, then you IMO, need to crank up the compression ratio. In which case KB107s or similar pistons will drop in with about .012 deck height. That together with an .028 gasket will get you .040quench pretty near perfect.
That will get you a total chamber size of about 74.2cc, and therefore a compression ratio ( At .030 overbore) of about 11.1 perfect for aluminum heads.
This combo will like an Intake closing angle around 64*, and will pull like a freightrain. You could install up to 68*and not lose too much low-speed torque, while gaining significant top-end power.
A streeter does not need a ton of top-end power, because it usually has to be band-aided with gears and a hi-stall to get out of it's own way below 20 mph. Without performance gears the power doesn't usually arrive until about 40 mph at no tireslip.
A streeter doesn't need gobs of off-idle torque either, it just lights up the tires. and spinning ain't winning....... but it can sure be fun, if yur car is set up for it.
IMO, a streeter needs midrange torque at a comfortable speed, to go hammer down in first gear. For me that is about 30 mph. If I have to shift almost right away after that; it sucks. If it is able to hold that gear to 50mph, that also sucks. If the cam falls off too soon or doesn't come in soon enough, that also sucks.
Yur gonna want at least a 750 to go with that 64*Ica. And I highly recommend a mechanical secondary carb that opens all 4 barrels to atmosphere without respect to rpm or airflow; this puts you in charge of tirespin, cuz yur gonna have a lotta "trouble" with tirespin.
When you go cam-shopping, I highly recommend to get one with the fastest clearance ramps you can find. The difference between the fastest and the slower ones can be the equivalent of 1 or more camsizes at .050. Depending on the combo, the difference can be more than n20 horsepower. This too sucks when you find out about it .
If you are a streeter,and you buy a cam for the sound, well,in the end, that usually sucks too.
The difference in fuel usage at hiway speeds between 64* and 68*Icas on 110LSA cams, also sucks.

So if you go for the 68* Ica, And I higly recommend that you don't, make it on a 108LSA; you'll pick up around 6 or more degrees of power extraction, to help plump up fuel-economy on the hiway. Just make sure your hiway rpm is high enough that yur cruise vacuum has plateaued, or, about 2400, which requires about a minimum rear gear of 3.23s. No problem. No problem because to get that 68* cam, is gonna take about a 284* advertised cam. And that 284 is gonna torque-peak at around 3500, and for oh-chit! performance, that is gonna want 4.10s to hit 27mph at that 3500 ... so it will cruise at 65@3300@zero-slip, and no problem.. No you don't have to run 4.10s,lol. You can run the 3.23s and wait, and wait, and wait, for the power peak to hit at about 5000rpm/48mph, and shift at about 5300@50mph........ and watch the guy in the fast lane, motor on by you,lol.
The point is, that IMO that 68*Ica is way too big for a streeter. Even the 64* cam is pushing the limit. I've run both in about the same combo as you are now building, and of the two, the smaller 64*was the better choice.
60/62* on a 108, IMO would be even better, allowing a civilized 3.23 with an automatic and about a 2400TC about like a stock 340 convertor. Tighten yur seatbelt brother.
Thank you buddy lol that was like a different language for me. Maybe the machine shop will get it lol
 
Thank you buddy lol that was like a different language for me. Maybe the machine shop will get it lol


FWIW, I'm sick of typing this, but compression ratio should not be based on cylinder head materiel. It doesn't matter. Aluminum is no more resistant to detonation than cast iron is. That's an ignorant wives tale tha needs to be strangled out of existence.

If you build you CI headed engine with less compression than an aluminum you're just giving up power.

Detonation resistance is affected more by spark plug location and heat range, quench (although I don't get excited about it...under .070 and you're golden unless we are talking GM crap) and cam timing.

Get that stuff correct and you run the same CR no matter what the head is made of.
 
If you build you CI headed engine with less compression than an aluminum you're just giving up power.
Without animosity;
are you suggesting that I could run near 200psi cylinder pressure, with XJOWU heads (got several of those) and a fast-rate 262/270* FTH cam?
If yes, then, that very much interests me. I might just have to swap my Eddies off, but you'll have to let me in on your secret. I'm thinking someone here will want my,(again without malice aforethought), my obsolete OOTB Eddies.
 
You dont need to crank up the compression, most off the shelf pistons in the performance relm are 9.5 -10. Anyways.
Keep it between 9.5-10.1 static and 7.9-8.4 dynamic is my advice. If you like to make changes , a lot, then run it up higher and you'll find a few ponies from it.

Best of luck
 
You dont need to crank up the compression, most off the shelf pistons in the performance relm are 9.5 -10. Anyways.
Keep it between 9.5-10.1 static and 7.9-8.4 dynamic is my advice. If you like to make changes , a lot, then run it up higher and you'll find a few ponies from it.

Best of luck
Sounds good thanks!
 
FWIW, I'm sick of typing this, but compression ratio should not be based on cylinder head materiel. It doesn't matter. Aluminum is no more resistant to detonation than cast iron is. That's an ignorant wives tale tha needs to be strangled out of existence.

If you build you CI headed engine with less compression than an aluminum you're just giving up power.

Detonation resistance is affected more by spark plug location and heat range, quench (although I don't get excited about it...under .070 and you're golden unless we are talking GM crap) and cam timing.

Get that stuff correct and you run the same CR no matter what the head is made of.
This is what I am not getting about this info.....2 or 3 of the 4 things mentioned as 'effecting detonation more' are related to keepiing the unburned mixture from getting as hot while it is waiting to be burned, and so better avoiding detonation. Heads, pistons, and cylinder walls are other heating contributors to the unburned mixture. So why would a hotter CI head not heat the unburned mixture more than a cooler AL one?
 
To build a 9.5 360 @.030 o/s
is 748.3cc of swept so, the total chamber volume will need to be 748.3/(9.5 less 1.0)=88cc
With KB107s , down .012(2.5cc) and 5cc eyebrows, this totals 7.5cc, leaving you 80.5 for the gasket plus chamber.
Op is gonna run the 63cc Eddies, so 80.5 less 63=
17.5cc for the gasket.

To build a 10.1, the total chamber size needs to be 748.3/(10.1 less 1)=82.2cc
Subtracting 7.5 for under the gasket leaves 74.7 for chamber plus gasket, and subtracting the 63cc heads we get 11.7 for the gasket

This combo falls together at about 2.5+5+63+6.4 (.028 gasket to achieve .040 Quench)=76.9cc total chamber volume... no machining required.
And the Scr falls together at (748.3+76.9)/76.9=10.73
With a nice street cam of 62* Ica, this makes

Static compression ratio of 10.73:1.
Ica of 62* @100 ft elevation
Effective stroke is 2.84 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is................................. 8.72:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is ............................... 182.42
PSI
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is................................ 159VP
Obviously, this combo will handle more cam.... but not much less. It has a built-in growth factor.


This pressure has run for me on 87E10, since 1999, and even still at over 100,000 miles.
A cam with a 62* Ica could be about 270* advertised duration.
This is a fall-together combo. Easy-peasy, quick, and cheap
The only thing I did different, on my final iteration, was to machine the decks for .005 pop-up and switch to .039 gaskets , to achieve .034 Quench. And the Scr rose to a tic under 11/1, so I installed the next bigger cam, for an Ica of 64*
This makes my current combo
Static compression ratio of 10.95:1.
Ica of 64* @930ft elevation
Effective stroke is 2.79 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is ............................... 8.75:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is................................ 178.62
PSI. a lil less pressure
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is ................................154VP

Hyup still runs on 87E10@34* all-in @3200/3400
 
This is what I am not getting about this info.....2 or 3 of the 4 things mentioned as 'effecting detonation more' are related to keepiing the unburned mixture from getting as hot while it is waiting to be burned, and so better avoiding detonation. Heads, pistons, and cylinder walls are other heating contributors to the unburned mixture. So why would a hotter CI head not heat the unburned mixture more than a cooler AL one?


Because the head can only shed as much heat as the COOLANT allows.

This isn't news. This is one of those idiotic interweb things (like Holley, for decades telling people to set power valve opening by idle vacuum) that is based on what feels good and not what's factual.
 
Without animosity;
are you suggesting that I could run near 200psi cylinder pressure, with XJOWU heads (got several of those) and a fast-rate 262/270* FTH cam?
If yes, then, that very much interests me. I might just have to swap my Eddies off, but you'll have to let me in on your secret. I'm thinking someone here will want my,(again without malice aforethought), my obsolete OOTB Eddies.


Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Your cranking compression numbers mean exactly zero. Nothing.

I've posted this before. I've done 200 cranking compression and it didn't detonate. I've seen engines that had 160 cranking compression that would rattle your teeth out.


All your math means zero if you base everything you do from cranking compression.
 
Thank you YR.

Wake the heck up AJ. I said it before half a million times, get your head out of the calculators. Reach beyond ....

And stop writing essays!!!
 
Because the head can only shed as much heat as the COOLANT allows.
Mmmmmm.... No making sense nor supported by the info that I can see. Not being contentious at all but wanting to get down to actual facts and understand what is correct. I honestly DON'T care if I am right or wrong, but want to delve into this. I'm open to good info or ideas that I have not grasped, but hand-waving should not be convincing to anyone.

As I understand it, the main thermal barriers in the cooling system are the head, the rad and the cooling flow out to the air... not the coolant. It is all seen in the in-vs-out temps of each part of the cooling flow... the coolant has the lowest temp delta.

Overall, the coolant and rad-air have not changed their thermal resistance, but the head has gone to a much lower thermal resistance so the whole system has lower thermal resistance and so higher heat flow; the coolant temps go up a to reflect that. But the head interior surface temps ARE going to be lower because thermal resistance of the the heat transfer to the head surface has not changed. (What I don't have is how the temps would be if the t-stat is out of the system....but it is not going to change the fundamentals.)

Does that sound reasonable or is there something about hot spots that enters into this, or...???
 
Overall, the coolant and rad-air have not changed their thermal resistance, but the head has gone to a much lower thermal resistance so the whole system has lower thermal resistance and so higher heat flow; the coolant temps go up a to reflect that. But the head interior surface temps ARE going to be lower because thermal resistance of the the heat transfer to the head surface has not changed. (What I don't have is how the temps would be if the t-stat is out of the system....but it is not going to change the fundamentals.)
Let’s take the radiator out of the picture first.
The aluminum will transfer heat quicker out of the chamber.
The internal heat hasn’t changed. Or very little. Because of that, a good octane is still required. Squeeze is squeeze. On that alone, it will need a certain amount of octane to prevent detonation. An 11-1 engine iron headed or aluminum headed (built the same otherwise) will still produce the same heat in the chamber.

Now the dynamic cylinder pressure is the next issue. Coupled with cam timing, this will produce a certain amount of pressure. As we know, this can and often will change the octane requirements.

Being that aluminum will transfer heat faster, there is wiggle room to allow more compression and octane required. BUT for best results, the octane requirement hasn’t changed because *** amount of PSI will still require YYY amount of octane to run at its peak lower making ability.

All the above is more so from a point of view of maximum return for peak power. Not what you can get away with. As a few member(s) here and one fella I sat down with in my back yard discussing this issue, you can run a aluminum headed pump gas engine all day @ a 11-1 ratio on 93 octane even with small cams.

If you could remove heat as quickly as aluminum with an iron head, it would be the same. But since we can not..... iron gets the bad rap. Take a little heat away from the iron, (drop the compression ratio a point or so - reduce cylinder pressure) and it is fine.

A lot has been written above the two metals and this topic. I decided to use the kiss method on it and not worry about it. *** octane has a certain amount of detonation resistance so the engine build will not push that threshold. While this may leave power in the table, it is far better than having issues when you push it to far.

Everyone can push there pencils, slide there abacus were around and punch calculator key pads all they want and retort with the scientific replies, that’s fine. Sometimes pushing it and running the science is an effort that isn’t really worth the 5-7 street HP you get in return. Race HP is all about pushing it.
 
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Does that sound reasonable
IDK,but I can tell you this;
I run my aluminum-headed combo at a minimum coolant temp of 205*F by the IR gun.
at low rpm/low mph the engine has one very nice personality. As the rpm rises it seems to make more power progressively than it should. By the time she goes thru the Eighth mile traps, she is charging way harder than I anticipated. IOW the power is not linear, as you see on typical dyno graphs.
My theory for this phenomenon has always been that at low rpm those aluminum head chambers are running "cold", but that as the rpm rises the heads have less time to get rid of the heat, so the chambers run progressively warmer, and the engine responds accordingly.That's been my theory.
This theory is partly supported by another phenomenon; When I leave the house, it is only 2 minutes to the hiway. When I get there I boot it up normally (being nice to the engine), and leveling off at 60mph. Then over the course of about the next three miles, the engine will gain 3 to 4 mph, with no throttle change. She has no choke, and my idle circuit is slightly rich. The terrain is about dead-flat. In another direction, the Hiway elevation goes uphill, and the phenomenon persists. The rpm is 2240 by the math. My theory is that as the chambers come up to temp, the engine makes more power, even at 2240 rpm.
The combo is as stated in post 16 and in the sig.
Car has gone 93 in the Eighth at 3467 pounds at 950ft, with an HE3038 Hughes FTH, which is 230/237/110+4
The Wallace calculator makes this out to be nearly 440 hp IIRC. The engine is exactly 368 cubes.
Now my question has always been, how does such a tame combo go so fast?
BTW, I was shifting like I always do at 7000 rpm, which Rumble will explain, is insanely high for that cam. No nevermind it went what it went. The trap rpm for that mph is 6140; but the tach was reading 7000... nearly right from the starter box. My clutch was not slipping, and one of the track officials came over on the return road and said the tires were still hazing thru the traps. Ok I get it's a crappy track, but 93 is still 93.
 
Hey AJ! Did you dyno that engine?
Where did peak HP power drop off.
 
IDK,but I can tell you this;
I run my aluminum-headed combo at a minimum coolant temp of 205*F by the IR gun.
...................
I could have sworn that you previously stated that your minimum coolant temp was 207°F. What made you cool it down 2 degree's, and how much power did you gain from the change? :D
 
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