360 runs strange, lifters??

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MopaR&D

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I've been trying to figure out a weird issue with the 360 in my D200 pickup for years. Basically what happens is on rapid decel or when free-revving it, when the revs fall it sounds and feels like it's not running on a few cylinders for a few seconds. Does it worse when it's cold. I went through the ignition and upgraded some things, no change. I thought it might be a phantom vacuum leak, I just installed an Edelbrock 2732 adapter plate to make sure the carb was fully sealing to the Performer intake but it still does it. I recently replaced the timing chain which was badly worn, definitely runs better but still has the same issue. I did notice that if I shut it off while it's running funky then go to restart it kinda sounds like a few cylinders don't have compression. All I can think of now is maybe some of the lifters are pumping down on decel? Idk how the heck that would work but I'm stumped. It does still have the original cam and lifters afaik, according to the odometer the truck has 133k miles on it (had 122k when I got it). Runs like a champ otherwise but this annoys the heck out of me and keeps me up at night lol.
 
Interesting… I have a similar issue on the 5.9 in my Barracuda. I am pretty sure it is due to collapsing lifters when revving past 4500 then decelerating. In my case it is my fault because I did the pushrod measurements wrong before ordering new Smith Bros. Pushrods…urgh…. So I used the stock ones which are a bit to long .
Your issue might just be dirty clogged lifters ? Take them apart and clean them .
 
Interesting… I have a similar issue on the 5.9 in my Barracuda. I am pretty sure it is due to collapsing lifters when revving past 4500 then decelerating. In my case it is my fault because I did the pushrod measurements wrong before ordering new Smith Bros. Pushrods…urgh…. So I used the stock ones which are a bit to long .
Your issue might just be dirty clogged lifters ? Take them apart and clean them .

That's a good idea, they can be removed through the cylinder head on an LA engine right?
 

That's a good idea, they can be removed through the cylinder head on an LA engine right?
yes.

i'm wracking my brain right now, because i want to say there's *some* aftermarket headgaskets that inhibit this but i'm coming up empty. but that's something you'd realize straight away.
 
It's about time for an oil change, I might dump some Marvel Mystery Oil in it and see what happens. The truck sat without running for 10+ years according to the seller when I bought it, might have some gunk in the lifters that never worked its way out.

I have some new valve cover gaskets to put in, I'll check if the new head gaskets I installed back when I put freshened heads on it block the lifters from being able to be removed. They were the standard Fel-Pros that come in the full engine gasket set, 8553PT is the part number??
 
If you had collapsing lifters, I would expect a noisy valvetrain that you would hear. Tap, tap, tap. Collapsing would be noisier than bleed down, tap/tap versus tick tick.
 
Have the heads rebuilt your valves are not sealing. Exhaust seats are not sealing do to the valves sinking in the seats causing the springs to lose seat pressure. You could try and shim the springs to extend the life of the engine but this would just be a temporary bandage. I know that sound very well.

The fast way to check is remove the rockers put a straight edge across the tops of the valve stems. The exhaust valve stems will be higher then the intakes due to wear from the fuel not having lead to prevent exhaust seat and valve wear . Use a feeler gauge and measure the difference on the tops of the intake valve under the straight edge.

A quick and cheap way to temporarily fix this is to air up the cylinders one at a time and throw a .020 - .025 shim under the springs with the engine still in the truck. Get new valve seals and also replace them while your in there. You'll see a big difference.
 
Have the heads rebuilt your valves are not sealing. Exhaust seats are not sealing do to the valves sinking in the seats causing the springs to lose seat pressure. You could try and shim the springs to extend the life of the engine but this would just be a temporary bandage. I know that sound very well.

The fast way to check is remove the rockers put a straight edge across the tops of the valve stems. The exhaust valve stems will be higher then the intakes due to wear from the fuel not having lead to prevent exhaust seat and valve wear . Use a feeler gauge and measure the difference on the tops of the intake valve under the straight edge.

A quick and cheap way to temporarily fix this is to air up the cylinders one at a time and throw a .020 - .025 shim under the springs with the engine still in the truck. Get new valve seals and also replace them while your in there. You'll see a big difference.

I'd agree with this but I have doubts that's the problem as I replaced the original heads less than 10k miles ago with rebuilt late-70s castings I bought from a fellow FABO member that had stainless exhaust valves put in. I guess I could still check the stem heights at some point. I'll be pretty ticked if that's really the issue.
 
I'd agree with this but I have doubts that's the problem as I replaced the original heads less than 10k miles ago with rebuilt late-70s castings I bought from a fellow FABO member that had stainless exhaust valves put in. I guess I could still check the stem heights at some point. I'll be pretty ticked if that's really the issue.

If only the valves were replaced and not the seats also could be an issue. Doing a leak down test may help in hearing where the air is going…
 
I'd agree with this but I have doubts that's the problem as I replaced the original heads less than 10k miles ago with rebuilt late-70s castings I bought from a fellow FABO member that had stainless exhaust valves put in. I guess I could still check the stem heights at some point. I'll be pretty ticked if that's really the issue.
You never mentioned you replaced the heads. I believe you said it ran good for 133k. If the heads you installed were surfaced your pushrods may be to long. Or who knows what condition the seats are in the heads.
 
You never mentioned you replaced the heads. I believe you said it ran good for 133k. If the heads you installed were surfaced your pushrods may be to long. Or who knows what condition the seats are in the heads.

I briefly mentioned it in post #5 but not in the OP. Not sure of the condition of the seats on the new heads but the old ones were sunken badly, one exhaust valve was almost 1/8" up into the head. I'm trying to find the conversation with the FABO member to find more details on them. How can I determine if the pushrods are too long?

@Scody21 leakdown test is a good idea, at least an audible one using my air compressor and air line/spark plug adapter.
 
How much Idle-Timing are you running?
Here's a possible scenario;
Too much IDLE-timing will run the IDLE-rpm up. Then
to get it down, you close the speed screw. Then
the engine runs out of fuel from the transfers, so next
you get more from the mixture screws, and now it idles.
But then, off-idle it is continuously too rich. But
worse is that when the throttle is closed at rpm, they close so far, that the vacuum in the intake just pulls huge fuel thru the mixture screws, which all puddles on the plenum-floor. And so, when you get back on it, she's gotta clean out all that fuel, and until it does, she is gonna run like she's flooded, cuz she is.
I mean IDK, but collapsing lifters is not on my radar.

Here's how I like to set the mixture screws.
I run the rpm up to cruise rpm, and lock it there. then I adjust the mixture screws for max rpm. then I kick the rpm back to idle.
If it won't idle there, it's probably wanting more fuel, so I increase the speed screw to get fuel from the transfers. If the speed gets too high, I retard the timing. After she's in the ballpark speed wise, she might need the mixture screws adjusted just a hair, but I try not to do that, cuz that is gonna go straight out the tailpipe at cruise rpm.
The above assumes that the fuel is fresh and at the correct WET level in the bowl.
Sometimes I adjust the fuel level as a fine-tuning measure.
For a 360, in a truck, I might target as much as 10* timing, to get the transfers synched to the preset mixture screws. If this makes the engine lazy at lower rpm, fix the timing curve!.
I have found a two-stage timing curve works very well. This requires TWO different springs in the distributor, one of which will have a long loop. Thus I can bring the timing in faster, to somewhere around stall speed or a little higher, and then slow it down to keep her out of detonation.
To find the ideal cruise timing I do this;
I run the rpm up to cruise rpm and keep it there for the duration of this test. Next, without regard to the timing light, I pull in the timing. If the rpm goes up, I drop it back down to cruise rpm and repeat, until more timing fails to produce more rpm at the reference cruise-rpm.
Next I put the timing light on her, buz her back up to cruise rpm, read it, subtract 3* for load compensation, and drop the rpm back to idle.
Now you have THREE data points, namely, Idle timing from before, and Power-timing is always ~35* for a 360, and now, cruise timing. Now all you have to do is marry them inside your distributor.
BTW, your Vcan can can be modified up to at least 22*, by grinding off the stops on the arm, until the diaphragm inside bottoms out. and the rate of advance coming in, can be adjusted by accessing the allen screw adjustment, inside, thru the vacuum nipple.
This is what I do.

FWI:
Your engine does not much care about idle timing. It's never gonna be ideal no matter what you set it to. Well yeah you can make it ideal, but, you just can't drive it there.
The first time it really cares is at stall-rpm; and
the second time is WOT, somewhere around 3400 +/- 200rpm, and
the third time is while cruising. which could be as much as 56* depending on load and rpm.

IDK if any of this is applicable to your situation, but if you are running say 18* of Idle-Timing, then I bet it is. As a test, just back it down to say 8*, and return the Idle-Speed to 700 in neutral, and see what happens.
 
Last edited:
How much Idle-Timing are you running?
Here's a possible scenario;
Too much IDLE-timing will run the IDLE-rpm up. Then
to get it down, you close the speed screw. Then
the engine runs out of fuel from the transfers, so next
you get more from the mixture screws, and now it idles.
But then, off-idle it is continuously too rich. But
worse is that when the throttle is closed at rpm, they close so far, that the vacuum in the intake just pulls huge fuel thru the mixture screws, which all puddles on the plenum-floor. And so, when you get back on it, she's gotta clean out all that fuel, and until it does, she is gonna run like she's flooded, cuz she is.
I mean IDK, but collapsing lifters is not on my radar.

Here's how I like to set the mixture screws.
I run the rpm up to cruise rpm, and lock it there. then I adjust the mixture screws for max rpm. then I kick the rpm back to idle.
If it won't idle there, it's probably wanting more fuel, so I increase the speed screw to get fuel from the transfers. If the speed gets too high, I retard the timing. After she's in the ballpark speed wise, she might need the mixture screws adjusted just a hair, but I try not to do that, cuz that is gonna go straight out the tailpipe at cruise rpm.
The above assumes that the fuel is fresh and at the correct WET level in the bowl.
Sometimes I adjust the fuel level as a fine-tuning measure.
For a 360, in a truck, I might target as much as 10* timing, to get the transfers synched to the preset mixture screws. If this makes the engine lazy at lower rpm, fix the timing curve!.
I have found a two-stage timing curve works very well. This requires TWO different springs in the distributor, one of which will have a long loop. Thus I can bring the timing in faster, to somewhere around stall speed or a little higher, and then slow it down to keep her out of detonation.
To find the ideal cruise timing I do this;
I run the rpm up to cruise rpm and keep it there for the duration of this test. Next, without regard to the timing light, I pull in the timing. If the rpm goes up, I drop it back down to cruise rpm and repeat, until more timing fails to produce more rpm at the reference cruise-rpm.
Next I put the timing light on her, buz her back up to cruise rpm, read it, subtract 3* for load compensation, and drop the rpm back to idle.
Now you have THREE data points, namely, Idle timing from before, and Power-timing is always ~35* for a 360, and now, cruise timing. Now all you have to do is marry them inside your distributor.
BTW, your Vcan can can be modified up to at least 22*, by grinding off the stops on the arm, until the diaphragm inside bottoms out. and the rate of advance coming in, can be adjusted by accessing the allen screw adjustment, inside, thru the vacuum nipple.
This is what I do.

FWI:
Your engine does not much care about idle timing. It's never gonna be ideal no matter what you set it to. Well yeah you can make it ideal, but, you just can't drive it there.
The first time it really cares is at stall-rpm; and
the second time is WOT, somewhere around 3400 +/- 200rpm, and
the third time is while cruising. which could be as much as 56* depending on load and rpm.

IDK if any of this is applicable to your situation, but if you are running say 18* of Idle-Timing, then I bet it is. As a test, just back it down to say 8*, and return the Idle-Speed to 700 in neutral, and see what happens.

It's about 12 initial but I'm also running MVA, might try switching to PVA and re-tune, see what happens.
 
'Runs like a champ'. Then switching from MVA to PVA would be a baaaaaaaaaaad idea.
 
I got around to doing some more digging today. I'm leaning towards it being ignition-related. As I was watching the timing marks with a timing light while revving the engine I noticed it occasionally scattered a bit; mind you the timing chain is new and it has a Summit Billet distributor I installed last summer. I pulled the cap to look underneath and noticed that the wear from the spark is all the way at the very edges of the contacts instead of closer to the center like it should be. What could be causing this? I'm going over in my mind all the factors that would contribute to the phasing of the rotor vs cap contacts and it's confusing lol. I have always noticed as well a high-pitched "buzzing" noise from inside the distributor while it's running, particularly at idle when there is less noise from the engine itself to mask it.
 
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I tried something else... I'm running a Pertronix Digital HP ignition box which allows you to change the trigger type between rising edge and falling edge. I changed that and reset the timing and it seems to run smoother; took a short test-drive and it runs great.

I'm also going to experiment with ported vac advance. I did notice that it revs a bit quicker and doesn't "chug" as much on the down-rev with PVA and the idle speed screw increased to compensate. Didn't get a chance today to test drive with the PVA arrangement but I will asap.
 
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