imager
Well-Known Member
Subscribe to Thread: 360
Thanks for all the great info.....
Thanks for all the great info.....
360
- Thread starter new2muscle
- Start date
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bighammer
Well-Known Member
Does anybody live near Karl? I'm really concerned for him, it's obvious someone has taken over his computer, and who knows what else. I hope he's okay. But whoever is posting thru his account, nice work there dude. 
:happy1:
:happy1:
txstang84
Well-Known Member
I can't wait to see the OP posting up a thread about rebuilding his 360 and dropping it in the Dart Sport
new2muscle
Member
Spent some time with those charts you posted up. Decoded my VIN,was quite fun. Also checked the oil galley plugs,yeah they don't exist on this block at all,makes me wonder. its hard to know what all this other person was doing. The plus side is it came with new Mopar Performance Stainless valves. Exhaust valve is 1.60" and the Intake is 2.02" and if i read correctly the 2.02" is what you suggested I used..from a 340? Found the numbers stamped onto my main caps and lined all anchor slots up. Still a very very long way off from actually putting anything together but I have been searching for parts. Mancini is simply wonderful,will be using them for sure. I have found some things on my block though that raises some questions. the VIN that you said is on the side reads 7D2425 5 and i thought that was a bit short and it doesn't seem to have more on it. Also I looked on the block by where the head bolts up for the other number and it doesn't seem to be there either….maybe just a lot of grime built up on it as it has been sitting and was passed along in the purchase. Sadly the only machine shop we have here isn't exactly what I would call a trusted machine shop as it is just our Napa parts store who is not well trusted in my parts. Any suggestions on a place that would allow me to ship parts to and from or any other suggestion on what to do? My notebook is filling up quite nicely from your information,I can't thank ya enough.
new2muscle
Member
Also got to looking at the connecting rods and the number on the side says 3418645 and as i search that number it bring up for a 318 and 340. Starting to think I have a mess on my hands here!!! Will those work in a 360?
Ok, I just looked it up in my "how-to" book.
He does have some conflicting information between the text, photos, and charts, but this is what makes the most sense:
What you have is the 3418645 Which was used in the 318 and 360 2 bbl engines which is a pressed fit wrist pin. The heavy duty rod was used in the 340 and 360 4 bbl's and was a full floating wrist pin.
If you use heavy duty rods in an engine originally equipped with light duty rods, you will change the balance of the engine. This balance can be as much as 100 grams.
If you choose this route, and they only recommend it if your engine is for heavy duty use, the crankshaft, vibration damper, and flywheel or flexplate must be balanced to the rods before you assemble the engine.
Translation -- Use the rods that you have. They will be fine for a street engine and you won't have to go through the trouble and expense of rebalancing. I've used them in 360's for street engine with no problems. I've converted 360 2 bbl engines to 4 bbl by only changing the carb and intake, and even a cam without changing to heavy duty rods.
You have another decision to make. Do you want to run new aftermarket rods or recondition the old ones. I will explain the pro's and con's of each one:
You can use new rods.
Pro's: They will be cheaper than reconditioning your old rods. They are new. You can choose to use press fit or floating wrist pins based on what pistons you choose.
Con: They do not have an oil squirt hole to oil the cylinder bores like the stock rods do.
Here's a link for new Eagle rods at Summit racing. Look at the 3rd and 4th on the list. One is for press fit pistons, and the other for floating pins for $260 - $280. Look into what Speed Pro pistons are available with each wrist pin style (pressed vs floating) before committing on the rods. You should be able to get a good set of 9.0 - 9.5 pistons for the 360 in pressed fit to match the press fit rods, I think that they make full floating pistons in 9.0 - 9.5 compression - you need to do your homework for that. Here's the summit link:
. http://www.summitracing.com/search/...n/6-123-in?SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending
Stock rods:
Pro's: They have the oil squirt hole to oil the cylinder bores. I like that. I haven't seen any data to prove that the engine can last as long without the squirt holes as it can with them. If it was there from the factory, there must be a reason for it. Believe me. The drill required to drill that hole is very small diameter and is prone to breaking. They have to keep stopping the operation and changing the drill bit when it breaks, which reduces output. If it wasn't needed, why would they go through all of the trouble to keep it. Chrysler could have saved alot of money to eliminate that, but didn't. I know how they test their engines before sending them to the public and I trust it.
It's common sense that the engine bores would have less wear with the oil squirting on them. Then the oil ring scrapes off any excess. It works!
Con's: It cost more (about $40). YOU WILL HAVE TO CHANGE THE ROD BOLTS TO USE THE OLD RODS.
The bolts stretch permanently every time that they are tightened. It's a small amount, typically .001" to .003" every time it is tightened and then loosened. You should not have more than 5 "clamp cycles" on a rod bolt. After 5 tightening cycles, they can be overstretched will lead to an early failure. When this happens, your engine will only be good for a boat anchor as the block, crank, and rods will be bent, twisted, and broken.
Now when they manufacture the engine, by the time that we get it, it will have at least two clamp cycles on it from the factory, maybe three if it was recycled and put into another engine. This leaves only two clamp cycles left. Now you have to plastic gauge the bearings before you assemble them to make sure that you have proper clearances. this takes one clamp cycle to run the Plastic gauge and then you have to check and clean it off of the bearing and crank. Then reassemble and torque them again. --->>> there's five You are at the limit. If anybody retorqued them before you, then they are over the limit. So you should change the rod bolts which will then require the rods to be reconditioned. Changing the rod bolts may cause the cap and rod to be misaligned, so you have to recondition the rods. My local machine shop charges $30 per rod x 8 = $240 per set + rod bolts at $70 which puts you at $310.
I like having the squirt holes, so I would pay the extra $40-$50 myself if it were my engine. It's worth it for the longer durability for having the oil on the bores.
Mancini has the high strength ARP replacement bolts listed for $70 and it looks like a less stronger set for $ . I would go with the ARP's for $70 Alex (Jeopardy reference - Alex Tribec)... Here is the link:
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/rodbolts.html
I would call Mancini Racing and see what speed pro pistons are available in the "C" package in 9.0 - 9.5 compression and find out what style wrist pin that they use and then make your decision on the rods. The Speed Pro's have a thicker piston skirt than the Keith Blacks and are closer to the stock piston weight and won't require balancing. I would recommend using a 9.0 - 9.5 compression Speed Pro piston with press fit pins and recondition the stock rods.
Does anybody live near Karl? I'm really concerned for him, it's obvious someone has taken over his computer, and who knows what else. I hope he's okay. But whoever is posting thru his account, nice work there dude.
I live near him. I'll have to go check on him and post back.... :glasses7:
Nice detective work & knowledge, Karl. Damn,talk about a power point bulletin on 360's,this qualifies.
MopaR&D
Nerd Member
Not to hijack but Krazykuda i reused the old bolts on the pressed-pin rods that came with my 360 when i rebuilt it. The cam currently in it tops out only just over 5000 rpm but i'm thinking of doing some bracket racing this summer; would there be a bad risk of me tossing a rod?
There is a risk. You have no way of knowing how many times that the bolt has been "clamped" (tightened).
When I worked in the engine factory, we only allowed ourselves to tighten the bolts twice on the engine assembly line.
The bolts get their first clamp when the rods are machined.
Then they loosen them up so they can install the piston/rod assembly into the engine. That is cycle #2.
We would only allow them one repair or one recycle on a piston/rod assembly and then we would scrap them. this is cycle #3.
We "saved" two clamp cycles for a dealer service (one cycle) and one rebuild. However they only assumed that a rebuild will tighten them once. If you do it right and check your clearances with plastic gauge, then you use 2 clamp cycles.
Realizing that, I tend to play it safe and prefer to spend the $300 to get new bolts and have the rods reconditioned. If you don't and the bolts let loose, you can damage the rod, crank, piston, and put a hole through the block.
Now, since you already have your engine together, it may be ok. I don't want to scare you. How long has your engine been together? How bad do you drive it? Has it held up for a while under "hard" driving conditions?
Like I explained earlier. The bolt typically will stretch approx .001" - .003" per clamp cycle, it varies, and you don't know how much unless you measure the bolts. If the bolts only stretched on the side of .001", then they will be fine. If they stretched more toward .003", then you may be approaching the critical point.
I saw a post where a guy claimed that he was measuring bolt stretch by measuring the bolts in the rods and comparing the length to the rest of the bolts. This is not accurate. You don't know how long the bolt was when it started. There are production tolerances and there is variation on the bolt length. Sometimes there is a lip or a burr on the end of the bolt, that could make it hard to measure accurately.
To measure bolt stretch is not an easy process, here's what is involved:
First I would get a box of connecting rod bolts and take 200 - 300 of them to the tool room to have a machinist grind the ends flat and then center drill them. You can't just "flatten" each end on a belt sander. It has to be ground flat and parallel on each end. Then the center drill is perfectly centered in the bolt on the head and tip at each end.
Then I would mark each bolt with a number and measure them with a ball micrometer. (Another guy in our group didn't listen to me and did his bolt stretch with vernier calipers. They weren't accurate enough and his results were meaningless - too much error in measurement). He ended up having to re-do his test with micrometers.
After marking and measuring each bolt, then I would bring them down to the rod machining line and have them installed on the rods and then chase those specific batch of rods all the way through the rest of the machining process. After they were finished, then I would take them and have the nuts loosened, so I could remove the cap and measure them to see how much that they permanently stretched during tightening on the rod machining line.
Like I said, typically I would see .001" - .003" of permanent stretch.
Next, I would have them assembled into pistons and installed and tightened on the engine assembly line. I would record the information from the machine that tightened them to look for correlation. Then we would pull those pistons and rods out of the block in a repair spur and I would measure the bolts again.
We would then remove the block and crank, and reload it before piston install to have it built into an engine.
I would then measure bolt stretch with the ball micrometer again.
I would then have the pistons removed from the rods and they would recycle the pistons and scrap the rods. We never sent out ground and centered rod bolts to a customer.
It would take three days typically to run a complete bolt stretch study after I got the ground and centered bolts from the machine shop. They would typically take a week to complete prepping my bolts for me.
Also the equipment that we used at the factory was much more accurate than what we use in a garage to torque our bolts. We used DC electric motors and monitored torque and angle. It would monitor the graph of torque vs angle and sense when the bolts started to stretch, then would stop. this is a more accurate way to control clamp load than just using torque only or going to a target torque and then 90° or so after reaching the minimum target torque. It would store the information I could look up the averages and ranges for torque and angle. I could also pull up the screen after the bolts were tightened and see the torque vs angle graphs from the last cycle.
So that's what is involved in doing a bolt stretch study on a connecting rod bolt. It's not very practical or economical to do at home in your garage.
If you have had your engine together for a while and spun it to red line with no problems, then you should be ok. I would recommend that if you take it apart again, to have new bolts put into the rods and then recondition the bore at a machine shop. When the bolts are changed, it can affect the alignment of the cap and rod. Any misalignment between the cap and rod from what it was originally machined may cause that rod to be tight or even not let the crank turn at all. That is why you have to keep each cap and rod with its mate that it was originally machined with.
LOL Rob!! I actually just thought the same thing the other day!! Except about you!! ;) I'm use to seein hilarious comments that you post then the other day I ran across a thread where you were giving nice, long , informative replies to a guy about gettin performance out of a 318!! It was awesome!! Lol
new2muscle
Member
Seriously,is this guy even real?? Has to be a computer spouting off all this 360 information. No lie,I maaaaaaaay have taken a lot of this and started schooling guys at work (I do work in a shop but just simple brakes and suspension things,tires as well) and the look on there face when they hear what you've been teaching me. Take for instance the whole reason I made this thread,guy told me to scrap my 360 cause the caps weren't marked,even though he "builds" motors and low and behold,they are already stamped!!! Thanks for all the information,I have looked into the pistons and everything else actually,I cannot wait to get started with this build. Gonna be awhile,especially since my family is growing!!! Krazykuda thanks for the reserve on that intake,I pm the person. Hope too be able to post pics of me getting things done on the car. I recall a comment about "arguing" to see what cam to use. I'm ready to hear that argument,just let me get my notebook first
new2muscle
Member
Aaaaaand if I was computer savvy I'd post a pic of the car ha!!
AdamR
Big Member
On the new rods Vs old rod thing, I have been told the new SCAT I beam rods are much better then the Eagle I beams. Not sure if the have the oil holes though.
Here's how you post a picture.
1. Take a picture that you like with your camera. (Not blurry).
2. download to your computer.
3. Open it up in "Paint" and resize to 40%, then save (I like to keep the original and use a new name for the resize).
4. Then go to the thread that you want to post it in and click on the "advanced" button.
5. Then click on the paperclip and a pop up box will come up.
6. Click on the first "choose file" button and find the file on your hard drive, click on it and then click the "open" button on the bottom of the window.
7. After you have chosen all of the pictures that you want to post, then click on the "upload" button at the bottom of that section.
8. Wait for the files to download, you will see them listed in the box when you are done.
9. Then click the red "x" at the top of the window and close it.
10. Then click on the paperclip again, and you can choose each picture to load individually, or use the "post all" button.
11. Then click the "submit reply" button below the box.
AdamR
Big Member
Treblig
Well-Known Member
Don't forget to>>>>>>>SEE PIC..... Or does this not apply to 360s???
Treblig
Treblig
I''ve never seen that on a 360.
As I interpret your picture, it is looking down the distributor hole while driving the oil pump with a priming tool. Oil is spraying out of the plug and going onto the drive gear.
As far as I know the plug at the end of the lifter galley is solid with no hole? Where did you get yours? Or did you drill it yourself?
I always thought that the drive gear was oiled from the overflow from the lifter valley spilling onto it. I just looked at my block and I can see a path where the oil from the head should go down to the drive gear.
Would the hole in the plug lower the pressure to the rest of the oil system above it?
It looks like a good idea to have the hole, to make sure that the drive gear is lubricated, if it doesn't sacrifice oil pressure.
However, I've never seen or heard of a problem with the drive gear oiling.
Treblig
Well-Known Member
KrazyKuda, I found this pic under tech tips at FABO. It's a very good way to ensure your drive gear is well lubricated. The small .030" hole doesn't even phase oil pressure but it makes a tremendous difference to the dist gear. I know I've seen other folks with worn drive gears and people are always looking for better quality dist drives because they wear out!!!. This solves the problem with worn gears. You don't have to do this but it's very good insurance for your dist gear. I will make sure I do it to my motor!!! BEST OF ALL IT'S FREE!!!!! if you drill it yourself before you install the plug!!
Treblig
Sorry, I missed this post the other day.
Yes, 2.02" intakes are the ones to go with. They are the old 340 valves, but will improve performance on the 360 also.
Yes, you have to scrape some dirt, grime, and some paint off of the engine to read the ingine plant info from the front of the block below the driver's head surface, and also for the VIN stamp above the oil pan on the passenger side (the one with the oil filter).
Yes, there is a number missing from this set:
the VIN that you said is on the side reads 7D2425 5
However that part does not concern you unless you are trying to verify a "numbers matching" car and engine. The digit that is missing is part of the sequence number for the car/truck at the assembly plant and matches the last 8 digits of the VIN, so this would be decoded from the information I posted on how to decode the VIN tag on the front windshield of the car. What you need to get off of this is the fact that the first "7" means it was in a 1977 model year car, and the "D" tells you that it was built in Belvidere, IL assy plant.
Here's a couple of shots of the engine plant marks on the front of the block below the driver's side head surface. This was from a different block that had the paint and grime already removed.
View attachment Ken 360 E22 B.jpg
View attachment Ken 360 E23 V.jpg
That's interesting. :supz:
Any idea what size hole it is? Maybe 1/8"? Smaller? Bigger? I wouldn't want to drill too big and loose some oil pressure. :sad1:
ops:It's only free if you don't break your drill bit drilling through the plug, which is not hard to do with a drill bit with that small of diameter.... LOL! :hmph: :banghead:
Too much lubrication won't hurt you as bad as not enough!! ;) :violent1:
Sorry, I just read and finally sunk in it's a .030" hole - much smaller than 1/8 (.125"). Very delicate drill bit....
You're welcome for all the info. I've been considering doing a "How to" engine thread, it looks like you gave me the opportunity to do it in yours. I've been doing this for 33 years now and have learned alot. But that doesn't mean that I know EVERYTHING. There is always someone who has some knowledge that you don't and may help you. I try to keep an open mind, listen, and try to learn as much as I can. But you have to learn to tell who doesn't know what they are talking about and "filter" them out...
Go back to work and tell those guys that gave you the bad advice, "In your face!!!". LOL!!
The "argument" is my buddy RustyRatRod, or Rob. He's a good guy at heart, but can come off a little abrasive at times. He'll give you the shirt off of his back if you need it. We poke at each other once in a while. He's very knowledgeable and is great with carburetors. It's fun to argue with him sometimes....
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y"]Argument Clinic - YouTube[/ame]
Treblig
Well-Known Member
That's interesting. :supz:
Any idea what size hole it is? Maybe 1/8"? Smaller? Bigger? I wouldn't want to drill too big and loose some oil pressure. :sad1:
It's only free if you don't break your drill bit drilling through the plug, which is not hard to do with a drill bit with that small of diameter.... LOL! :hmph: :banghead:
Too much lubrication won't hurt you as bad as not enough!! ;) :violent1:
Sorry, I just read and finally sunk in it's a .030" hole - much smaller than 1/8 (.125"). Very delicate drill bit....
THAT BRITISH HUMOR IS JUST TOOOOO MUCH!!!! I couldn't stop watching!!
On a serious subject, you simply drill the small hole in the plug before you install it. Then deburr the hole as required. Yes it is a delicate operation but if you drill it with the plug in a vise and you are careful the worst that can happen is that you break the drill bit (no big deal). You could also take a die grinder and grind a very small hole in the plug this way you don't break any drill bits. Actually once your carbide burr breaks through just the littlest bit you can take your drill bit and finish the job. If the hole only ends up being .020/.025/.030" it doesn't matter as long as you don't make it any larger!! If it comes out too big (no big deal) get another plug, they are cheap!! You can get a lot of oil to shoot out of a .020" hole under 30/40 PSI.
Treblig
Yes, it is best to drill off of the engine.
I would recommend, getting a bushing that the plug fitsinto from the hardware store, then installing it in the bushing, so you can clamp it tight in the vise without damaging the threads on the pipe plug. Who cares if you damage the threads on the bushing, they're cheap and that way you won't damage the pipe plug threads with the vise jaws while clamping it tightly so it does not move while drilling.
Yes, that's one of my favorite Monty Python skits. When my mom and grandma start bickering/arguing, I just refer to that and say, "I came here for an argument..." And they look at me funny...
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