4 Spd slight grinding when shifting.

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mrtires24

mrtires24

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Here is the situation.

CAR:
1970 duster 440 4 Spd. Built 6 years ago 2008 couple thousand km put on it since build. New clutch linkage, new centerforce clutch and pressure plate. New pilot bushing. When built.

Car drove fine when built. And was good for years

The trans was a used 1965 4spd. Shifted well, but tail shaft seal and bushing needed to be replaced. The tail shaft bearing caused a wobble to the shaft.

Took the car this spring 2014 to get tail shaft and bushing replaced. When I got the car back, I noticed the car would slightly grind gears as I shifted and got worse as it heated up. I tried adjusting clutch linkage, to no avail. Asked my shop about it, they said they never touched the clutch or bell housing or linkage when the removed trans for rear tail shaft bushing.

As I was parking the car to store it, I noticed it was being stuck in reverse. Had to pull really hard to release it, and it was grinding really good going into gears.

Had a friend push clutch while I watched the disk from under the car. The disk disengages when clutch pedal is pressed. Unfortunatly I didn't try spinning the disk when it was pressed.

I pulled the tranny the other day. Thinking the pilot bearing is bad. It looks ok, but I didn't measure.

What could the issue be?

Thanks to all members in advance.
 
synchros? grinding when looking for a gear or when engaged? synchros basically match speed of gear and shaft between shifts so they mesh without making a noise. If they go bad, the gears are spinning at different speeds when engaged and you get a grind.

oops, didnt read the part about it stuck in reverse...see below.
 
hi, If it was stuck in reverse, then side cover is not aligned properly. loosen up side cover, shift trans into reverse, tighten cover down, now it will come out of reverse easier. prob find it will shift easier in gears. 1965 trans used a ball and detent side cover. the reverse arm has a shoe, which has to match the shoe on 1-2 arm for things to operate correctly. if not, it binds the shifting.
 
perfacar said:
hi, If it was stuck in reverse, then side cover is not aligned properly. loosen up side cover, shift trans into reverse, tighten cover down, now it will come out of reverse easier. prob find it will shift easier in gears. 1965 trans used a ball and detent side cover. the reverse arm has a shoe, which has to match the shoe on 1-2 arm for things to operate correctly. if not, it binds the shifting.
Click to expand...

This sounds spot on to me. I've run into this before. Fortunately, I had an old Mopar guru teach me about this before I banged my head against the wall.
 
Funny thing is that it looks like a couple of the side cover bolts were not tight. I will try and put tranny in and attempt this fix.

Did this issue also cause grinding of gears?

I really expected to see my pilot bearing with an issue. Had my pilot bearing go in a different car ( 4 Spd 360) and it was simular symptoms
 
First off, a '65 MOPAR trans is a ball and trunion and doesn't use a bushing, it uses a rear bearing, seal, and bolt on yoke. Second, I'd check the fluid level and the type of fluid they might have put in it with the "bushing" change. Sounds like it's about empty. Just things I'd check first. Hope it's something simple, it can get expensive. Good luck. Russ.
 
Double M said:
First off, a '65 MOPAR trans is a ball and trunion and doesn't use a bushing, it uses a rear bearing, seal, and bolt on yoke. Second, I'd check the fluid level and the type of fluid they might have put in it with the "bushing" change. Sounds like it's about empty. Just things I'd check first. Hope it's something simple, it can get expensive. Good luck. Russ.
Click to expand...

That's where I'd start, right there.
Fluid level and viscosity.

The hint was "worse when it warms up"
 
Did you adjust the clutch linkage by making it the pedal lower or higher? Should have tried to tigthen the linkage so it will be sure to be releasing the clutch fully.

One other thing: if the shop was not careful to support the trans properly when removing or isntalling it, and 'hung' the trannie on the clutch splines, they could have bent the clutch hub, causing it to not release properly.
 
Good going guys with the advices.
- At first, I had no success trying to run full synthetic in my A-833. When I pushed it, it wanted to grind at every shift, even though it shifted quietly, all-be-it somewhat slowly, with the 50/50 I had been running up to that time.(50% ATF,50%EPgear oil).I took the tranny down multiple times for modding,eventually getting it to shift sweet at 7200rpm, with the synthetic oil. Those gears must be heavy at redline. All the usual mods, but left the brass rings in it for street. Hope you can get it with just a fluid change, and linkage adjustment.best of luck.
-And by the way, I know of no way to replace the rear bushing in the tailhouse except by complete dissassembly of the trans.That is; shifter and rods off,driveshaft off,oil out,tranny on the bench, cover off,forks out,tailhouse bolts out, tail rotated 180*,cluster down,maindrive forward,mainshaft/tail out, m/s assy out,naked tailhouse. Pound out bushing, put in trash. Install new bush. Reassemble trans, install trans, install D/S,install oil, install and adjust shifter,check clutch departure,install inspection cover, Roadtest.
-There is another way; With just the driveshaft removed, and using a special tool, push the bad bushing forward but not out of its bore.Push in the new bush until it hits old bush.Leave them both in there. Tricky to do, but doable.
-In the first method, notice the shifter had to come off and then be reinstalled and adjusted and roadtested. That would be the right way to do it. If this method was used it should have been presented to you working as before. That is the reason for the roadtest.
-If method two was used, your shop may be correct in stating that the shifter was not touched. However the roadtest should have been performed, the shift-problem noted, and reported to you for adjustment consideration prior to pick-up.
-The method options should have been discussed prior to the installation, and the price charge should be commensurate with the method used.
-hope this helps.
 
AJ/FormS said:
Good going guys with the advices. At first, I had no success trying to run full synthetic in my A-833. When I pushed it, it wanted to grind at every shift, even though it shifted quietly, all-be-it somewhat slowly, with the 50/50 I had been running up to that time.(50% ATF,50%EPgear oil).I took the tranny down multiple times for modding,eventually getting it to shift sweet at 7200rpm, with the synthetic oil. Those gears must be heavy at redline. All the usual mods, but left the brass rings in it for street. Hope you can get with just a fluid change, and linkage adjustment.best of luck.
Click to expand...

AJ: My 833 is rebuilt but still doesn't shift smooth at higher rpms compared to many other 4 speeds I've driven over the years. My bud says it's simply heavy gears & physics. Is there a list of changes that I could make to a spare trans to get it to shift well at 6500rpms +?
 
AJ/FormS said:
Good going guys with the advices.
- At first, I had no success trying to run full synthetic in my A-833. When I pushed it, it wanted to grind at every shift, even though it shifted quietly, all-be-it somewhat slowly, with the 50/50 I had been running up to that time.(50% ATF,50%EPgear oil).I took the tranny down multiple times for modding,eventually getting it to shift sweet at 7200rpm, with the synthetic oil. Those gears must be heavy at redline. All the usual mods, but left the brass rings in it for street. Hope you can get it with just a fluid change, and linkage adjustment.best of luck.
-And by the way, I know of no way to replace the rear bushing in the tailhouse except by complete dissassembly of the trans.That is; shifter and rods off,driveshaft off,oil out,tranny on the bench, cover off,forks out,tailhouse bolts out, tail rotated 180*,cluster down,maindrive forward,mainshaft/tail out, m/s assy out,naked tailhouse. Pound out bushing, put in trash. Install new bush. Reassemble trans, install trans, install D/S,install oil, install and adjust shifter,check clutch departure,install inspection cover, Roadtest.
-There is another way; With just the driveshaft removed, and using a special tool, push the bad bushing forward but not out of its bore.Push in the new bush until it hits old bush.Leave them both in there. Tricky to do, but doable.
-In the first method, notice the shifter had to come off and then be reinstalled and adjusted and roadtested. That would be the right way to do it. If this method was used it should have been presented to you working as before. That is the reason for the roadtest.
-If method two was used, your shop may be correct in stating that the shifter was not touched. However the roadtest should have been performed, the shift-problem noted, and reported to you for adjustment consideration prior to pick-up.
-The method options should have been discussed prior to the installation, and the price charge should be commensurate with the method used.
-hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Tranny was removed for this.
I going to ask him if he took the tail portion off the trans. I can't figure out what's wrong. Havnt put trans back in yet though.

Guess I'm scared to put it back in only to have to remove it again. Thinking I should maybe drop it off at a shop to go over the trans before I put it back in.

I have pulled 4spds befor and put them back in without issue, don't know why a shop would cause a problem. Sucks.
 
nm9stheham said:
Did you adjust the clutch linkage by making it the pedal lower or higher? Should have tried to tigthen the linkage so it will be sure to be releasing the clutch fully.

One other thing: if the shop was not careful to support the trans properly when removing or isntalling it, and 'hung' the trannie on the clutch splines, they could have bent the clutch hub, causing it to not release properly.
Click to expand...

Adjusted to make linkage tighter...the clutch is defiantly engaging and disengaging properly.
 
They do make a tailshaft bushing puller for just about every trans out there, but that is a moot point now by a long shot isn't it?
 

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Ok, I think I see whats going on.You have several problems.
-Problem#1)Lets start with the "stuck in reverse". As others have said, this is an adjustment issue.Since the tranny is on the bench, this is a great time to set it up. First we have to correctly install the cover. There are 3 types of bolts holding it on, and 2 types of holes that they have to go into,and 2 types of washers.First remove the bolt just to the right of the 1-2 lever.Im going to call that hole #1. Then remove any other bolt, except the 2 just under the 1-2 lever.If those 2 removed ones are the same, then theyre both wrong for that #1 location. That #1 location is special. If you were to remove the cover, and inspect all the threaded mounting holes you would find that the #1 hole is counterbored about 1/4inch.This is to receive a long-shouldered bolt, which will properly index the cover.So loosen all the cover bolts and go find the long-shouldered bolt by taking them out one by one.You should find three kinds of bolts; 2 plain bolts with threading right up to the hexhead,7 short-shouldered bolts and the 1 long-shouldered bolt.So assuming you found that bolt,Put it into the #1 location. The 2 plain HH bolts go just under the 1-2 lever, with plain spring washers.All the rest of the 8 bolts are supposed to have 1 size larger spring washers.They must all receive washers or they may not fully tighten up.The #1 also gets the little clip for the back-up switch wire.Dont tighten them yet.Screw the #1 bolt down to see if it will go in ok. Sometimes the shoulder-end gets mushroomed by novice installers putting it into the wrong location,and you will have to carefully smooth the end.So,once it goes all the way in,back it out a bit.Now with all the bolts a little loose, Push the cover up hard and tighten #1. Then tighten the rest.Ok the cover is on. But wait, what if the special #1 long-shouldered bolt is missing?Oh boy!Actually its not that big of a deal. The factory used a special procedure to select the reverse shift parts which required the #1 hole to be consistent.Since your tranny has a history of working ok, all you have to do is push up hard and tighten the bolt. Next,lets shift the reverse lever in and out several times.Put a 4 inch wrench on it.It should offer a small amount of resistance initially and then whack over easy,making a nice sound.In and out, whack-whack.If it doesnt do this and feels like its rubbing inside, you will have to do some adjusting.We will go there later, if needed.For now Im going to assume it shifts perfectly.So, reverse is done.Next,put that 4 inch wrench on the 1-2 lever and work it. You may have to line up the syncro slider by spinning the input shaft a bit.Shift; 1st, 2nd /whack-whack.Do this several times.Working good? Ok.Move the wrench back to the reverse location.Put your left hand on the 1-2 lever, then shift into reverse.Did you feel anything in your left hand? You shouldnt. Ok, back to neutral.Next shift the 3-4 lever. Shift 3rd,4th, In,out whack, whack. Finally put it in 2nd gear. Then try to also shift it into 4th. It should be impossible, with just a small bit of movement of the 3-4 lever. Ok cover is done.
---Problem#2)In my experience,these trannys do not like synthetics.Theyre just too slippery and will almost always grind shifts, especially neutral to first and the 1-2. I find the EP oils work, but the shifts are usually too slow for me. When the cones are fresh they will shift pretty good with Dextron II. As the cones glaze up and the brass wears they start to grind the 1-2 shift. The thin ATF also doesnt help to slow those big gears down,at all.So I usually run a blend 50% EP and 50% ATF. Works for me.So, if you dont know what oil is in it, just dump it.
---Problem#3)Shifter adjustment. You probably know how,so I wont go into it at this time. However, I will say this; Most of my shifter problems have been due to the levers coming loose on the studs. If theyve been run loose the slots get wrecked.So loosen the special nuts and inspect the levers for any for and aft movement.If you find ANY, you will need to fix it.I have used various methods over the years, usually expensive. Bot the easiest,simplest, least expensive, is Loctite RED.It needs to go ONLY 2 places;between the lever and the stud in the slotted index, and on the thread to nut interface.You must be very careful to not let any to travel up the lever into the cover.The slot area must be completely filled.After tightening the special nut,let it cure.
---Problem#4 ClutchPlate departure.This is checked with the tranny installed.I usually do this immediately after the tranny is snugged up to the bellhouse, and assumes all the pedal linkage is installed and adjusted.If you are experiencing grinding from neutral to first and you have no synthetic in the box, this is critical.Have a helper depress the clutch to the floor and hold it there.Now with a screwdriver you attempt to rotate the clutch disc.It should spin fairly easily.This tells us that the disc is in good shape and that the clutch fingers are all working and the hub is probably not bent.Next I install a couple of feeler guages about across from eachother or whatever you can get. I flip out the .040 fingers from the pack,and stick them in there with the rest of the pack hanging down.Then tell your helper to release the pedal.Next have your helper slowly depress the pedal again. Have him stop when the feelers fall out.If the pedal is not on the floor have him estimate the remaining travel,then release the pedal again.There is no benefit in over pedalling it, except maybe from neutral to first.If you have a diaphragm clutch, I would recomend to not overpedal it. Either lower the pedal by readjusting the freeplay, or put a block on the floor or under the pedal at the previously estimated height.Finally recheck the plate departure, and readjust as necessary.
 
---Now for the tips;I think the N-1 shift is probably the hardest one for the brass ring to achieve.Firstly, with the vehicle at rest the Mainshaft and synchronizers are doing zero rpm.The engine is idling at around 800rpm. With a 2.66 ratio low gear, the low gear is spinning at about 300 rpm(800/2.66). The input shaft, the clutch disc,the cluster gear and 2nd and 3rd gears are all spinning too. So you depress the clutch and pull back on the stick which pushes the brass synchro ring towards the 1st gear cone.Well first it has to push whatever oil might be there,out of the way.Then it begins braking all those spinning parts to zero rpm.If you have EP oil in there, it will help slow things down, but at the same time its hard to get out from between the brass and the cone.The ATF is easy to displace but doesnt slow the cluster down as fast.Then when everything finally comes to a halt, the slider begins to move and wants to engage the clutch-teeth on the low gear. But very often the teeth but-up to eachother and the shift cant be completed, except by force or to pedal it and try again. This is all aggravated if the disc is trying to remain at engine speed due to A) insufficient plate departure, or B) faulty pressure-plate(usually unequal finger height), or C) faulty disc(usually coming apart) or D) a bent hub, or E) the disc is not sliding on the input gear splines properly.On the other hand, if all the clutch parts are in good shape, and youre running a thick EP oil, its possible for all those spinning parts to stop almost too fast and again the slider teeth may but-up with the low gear clutch-teeth and again the shift is hard to complete. So you can see just how hard the brass is working.
---By contrast look at the 3-4 shift. Lets say you shift at 5500rpm and 3rd gear is 1.40 ratio.The split here is about 1400rpm.That sounds like it would be harder right? comparing 1400 to 300.Well consider that the engine rpm is rapidly falling because you took your foot off the gas, right? And the Mainshaft is now spinning too. And the engine is dragging the disc down and all the other spinning parts too. Then consider that shifting at 5500 doesnt occur all that often.Most of the time youll be shifting at half that so the split will be half or 700rpm.If you want to see this in action, just pull a 3-4 shift at 30mph without using the clutch.You will likely have to modulate the gas pedal because the rpm actually falls too fast, and the slider will grind as the shift window goes by.
-The thing is when I take these trannys apart,all the 3-4 synchro parts are usually in fine shape.The 4th gear brass is very good.The 1st brass is most worn and the 2nd steel teeth are the most beat up.
-Its possible to make the A-833 shift almost like a Honda, but it takes a lot of work and a lot of time/experimentation.
-Long story short is this;Theres a lot more to installing a clutch than just slamming it in.And we havent even addressed dial-indicating the bellhouse.
 
mrtires24 said:
Adjusted to make linkage tighter...the clutch is defiantly engaging and disengaging properly.
Click to expand...
Well releasing properly doesn't just mean it sorta releases; proper releasing meams that it the clutch disc can eventuatlly go to 0 rotation speed with no drag (will spin down by itself) with the engine revved up. Any small amount of drag between the disc and pressure plate or flywheel, or between the trannie input shaft and the pilot bearing/bushing, will keep the input shaft loosely spinning somewhat in sync with engine speed. The synchros then have more work to do to change the speed of the mass of the clutch disc and input shaft to the proper speed for gear mesh.

The above itmes A-E is what this is about: "the disc is trying to remain at engine speed due to A) insufficient plate departure, or B) faulty pressure-plate(usually unequal finger height), or C) faulty disc(usually coming apart) or D) a bent hub, or E) the disc is not sliding on the input gear splines properly." Add a poor/damaged/non-lubricated pilot bearing or bushing can cause this too.
 
sorry everyone. I was trying to work on this wile dealing with an injury...turned out i tore two muscles in my back and one in my chest. haven't worked on it because of positions I get under the car.

I want to get the car going for the summer so I will keep you all posted

Phil
 
well, today is my birthday, and as a Birthday ritual, I will be putting some time into a car today. I know this is an old thread, but i have had no time for the cars and the trans is still sitting under the car. hope to have an update today!
 
BIG-B-Barracuda said:
Pennzoil syncro mesh -TRANNY OIL

will take care of that . .
Click to expand...

Oil cant fix a maniacal problem. I'm an AMSOIL dealer and if I could honestly sit here and say put AMSOIL in it and it would fix it I would. But I'm not here to make make blanket statements just to try and push a product. It sounds like (from the skimming I did) there is a real internal problem with his trans that oil isnt going to fix.
 
pENNZOILS SYNCROMESH will fix any "slight" grind... slight "noise/stubborn gear shift" has for me two different occasions two different cars.


try it first then talk.....

PS. never trust a salesman .... im not trying to sell him on a product for i am not selling naything nor am i a salesman. i talk from experience ... ive tried it.. and worked wonders. .. . .

you have a quick mouth/ stick to your desk AMSOIL./
 
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