408 Cam slection help

[71swing]

I really don’t mean to be a pain about it, I have asked a few other questions around it on other threads but this is slightly different. There has been allot of cam talk around the forums lately and it gets me double guessing myself.

Here is my dilemma. I have a 408 with Fast EZ efi, Air gap intake, edlebrock heads, TTI headers, 727 with valve body, 3800 stall Dynamic converter, 4:30 gears. Car will see more weekend cruise then it will track. Track maybe 3 times a year. Also keep in mind I will consult Dynamic after the motor is finished on a proper stall other than the 3800 that came out of my 340, which I’m sure won’t respond the same under the new 408.

I got recommendation before the build from comp for the cam linked below which I ordered and is on its way.
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=632&sb=2

BUT talking to someone at Comp Cams today they recommended the cam linked below. Now I’m conflicted if I have the right cam coming or if I need to send it back when it arrives for the other on below.
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=628&sb=2

What do you guys recommend? The 2nd smaller one is not too far off the MP cam (284/284dur. .484lift ) that came out of my 340 which I had originally intended to use, but decided to revisit the idea before the motor went back into the car.

Please help

 

[OldmanRick]

No question in my mind......#1 the 228. Hey you've gone this far and that engine will swallow that with no problem. I'm guessing they gave the second choice because of the efi. That second choice would be so mild, you'd be wasting the good heads. There is always the carb option if need be........use #1 .

 

[1970Duster]

How much room do you have between the valve and the piston? Are your heads have any port work to them? Have you thought of using a roller cam (either solid or hyd your pick) what of rocker arms are you using?

 

[71swing]

How much room do you have between the valve and the piston? Are your heads have any port work to them? Have you thought of using a roller cam (either solid or hyd your pick) what of rocker arms are you using?

No the heads have not made it onto the block yet. 408 is currently sitting on the stand in shortblock form with my old 340 cam installed. But thats were I am with it now. I wanted to step up the cam before moving on. Pistons are dished with valve reliefs, I will check clearance of course but I don't think it will be a problem. Im also not really intrested with the oiling mods and changes required for the roller cams. As for rockers Im using a set of gold crane shaft mounted 1.5 rockers that I also had on my 340 before.

 

[1970Duster]

No the heads have not made it onto the block yet. 408 is currently sitting on the stand in shortblock form with my old 340 cam installed. But thats were I am with it now. I wanted to step up the cam before moving on. Pistons are dished with valve reliefs, I will check clearance of course but I don't think it will be a problem. Im also not really intrested with the oiling mods and changes required for the roller cams. As for rockers Im using a set of gold crane shaft mounted 1.5 rockers that I also had on my 340 before.

What oil mods? I have a hyd roller cam with Hughes drop in roller lifter, no mods needed.

 

[71swing]

I'm guessing they gave the second choice because of the efi. That second choice would be so mild, you'd be wasting the good heads. There is always the carb option if need be........use #1 .

That’s what is got me questioning it all. They were both given the same setup both times; just the two different guys gave me different recommended cams. The EFI cost me around $2500, so I’m not willing to let a $150 cam push me back to a carb. The first guy that recommended me the larger 228 cam said it would give me around -10lbs vacuum to use with the EFI which is said to need at least -8lbs to function.

It’s just that this cam knowledge goes right over my head when it comes to selecting the right one that is why I looked to them but I get conflicting answers from two different techs a month apart for the same combo. Got me scratching my head.

 

[71swing]

What oil mods? I have a hyd roller cam with Hughes drop in roller lifter, no mods needed.

Would it not require a $500 set of retro fit rockers and different pushrods?
73' block would you block off the oiling through the heads? $500 worth of rockers I would consider a mod. Plus one roller cam is priced around $400.

 

[71swing]

Also my heads are currently straight out of the box for now. This 408 build has gone a little beyond my budget. So the heads will have to go on as they are now and maybe come back off next year for some port work, It does seem that they maybe the limiting factor of make power. I'll just have to see what I get with ootb heads first. I’m only looking for ballpark 500 hp to the wheels on this, modestly only expecting slightly over 400hp to the wheels

 

[SRT_DSTRHOLC]

You know you need at least 8in of Vac to run that EFI? And you don't mention your compression so cam selection is not that simple.

 

[fishy68]

The 224 will run out of steam right past 5000 rpm in a 408. I wouldn't even think about using it. The 228 is the one I'd go with. It's not a big cam for a 408 and should pull at least 10" of vacuum so the EFI should work ok.

4:30 gears. Car will see more weekend cruise then it will track

Why the heck are you running stump puller 4.30 gears with a mild stroker? Unless you plan on only running the car in the 1/8th mile those gears are useless. Strokers are low rpm high torque engines. They don't need low gears like a big cammed 318. Even with the 228 cam 3.55 gears would work fine and the engine wouldn't be screaming like a banshee at 60 mph.

 

[fishy68]

Would it not require a $500 set of retro fit rockers and different pushrods?
73' block would you block off the oiling through the heads? $500 worth of rockers I would consider a mod. Plus one roller cam is priced around $400.

If you want drop in lifters yes it will take the $500 ones. The cheaper ones may require a little grinding on the block for clearance but that's it. And btw their all called Retro-fit lifters. Just some require less work to install than others.

Why would you block oiling to the heads? Only reason I can think someone would do that is if they wanted to burn up their rocker arms and shafts because that's how they get oiled.

Yes roller cams are expensive, but they are the cats meow.

 

[OldmanRick]

I'm not real familiar with what the EZ efi can support, but the wheel numbers you quoted may be a stretch. 400hp at the wheel would be approaching 500 at the crank. I'm not sure you have the combo for that, although the efi when calculated properly should make a ton of torque.

 

[71swing]

Why the heck are you running stump puller 4.30 gears with a mild stroker? Unless you plan on only running the car in the 1/8th mile those gears are useless. Strokers are low rpm high torque engines. They don't need low gears like a big cammed 318. Even with the 228 cam 3.55 gears would work fine and the engine wouldn't be screaming like a banshee at 60 mph.

You hit the nail on the head. I will look to raising them back up. The 4:30's were for 340 setup i had in the car before. All I have left locally is a damn 1/8mile track. Thats what I geared it for. Once I get the engine combo knocked out and back in the car I will focus on new gears and converter. I am very tired of the very limited highway driving I can do. I think 3:55 are to far on the other scale but I may meet somewhere in the middle like 3:90's. Car origonally had 3:55 when I got it, and would barely break the tires at the line before a gear and converter swap.

 

[71swing]

You know you need at least 8in of Vac to run that EFI? And you don't mention your compression so cam selection is not that simple.

My compression should be somewhere in the mid 10's. With my 63cc heads and the 20cc dished pistons I selected for the 408.

 

[71swing]

I'm not real familiar with what the EZ efi can support, but the wheel numbers you quoted may be a stretch. 400hp at the wheel would be approaching 500 at the crank. I'm not sure you have the combo for that, although the efi when calculated properly should make a ton of torque.

So you don't think it will break the 400hp mark, which would be disappointing. I usually get disappointed by the dyno anyway. Can't say I’ve ever walked away with a smile before.

******* dyno's

 

[fishy68]

You hit the nail on the head. I will look to raising them back up. The 4:30's were for 340 setup i had in the car before. All I had left locally is a damn 1/8mile track. Thats what I geared it for. Once I get the engine combo knocked out and back in the car I will focus on new gears and converter. I am very tired of the very limited highway driving I can do. I think 3:55 are to far on the other scale but I may meet somewhere in the middle like 3:90's. Car origonally had 3:55 when I got it, and would barely break the tires at the line before a gear and converter swap.

Ok I understand the 4.30 gears now but my guess is you've never ridden in a car with a 408/416. With the build your proposing it'll have a whole bunch more torque than your 340 had and run great with 3.55 gears, IMO... Last year I took a decent running 360 out of my Cuda and put in a 408 I built which is very similar to what your proposing. The old 360 ran good but was nowhere near a holeshot king with 28" tires and 3.55 gears, but it was streetable. The new 408 has so much more torque it won't even begin to hook up in 1st. Heck even in 2nd gear (727 automatic) at 40 mph I can nail it and leave 10+ foot of black marks. And that's with drag radials! Now I gotta work on the rear suspension to get it ot hook up, LOL

 

[71swing]

but my guess is you've never ridden in a car with a 408/416.

No I haven't, but Im looking forward to it

The new 408 has so much more torque it won't even begin to hook up in 1st. Heck even in 2nd gear (727 automatic) at 40 mph I can nail it and leave 10+ foot of black marks.

This is what Im after.


On the subject of suspension I have plans for Caltracs later. A guy locally is getting a lot of attention with his charger with a 400 big block stroked to 453 running in the 6's at the local track. It is a sight to see a car that big going that fast. Hes only running caltrac bars and mono leafs.

Here's an 1/8th mile pass ---->. http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=htt...yYno&feature=youtube_gdata_player&h=KAQGB_7y7

 

[SRT_DSTRHOLC]

Second one will give you more torque. If you want a good cam call mike at MRL or Brian at IMM. They will ask you your specs and what you are doing and suggest or make you a cam for what you want! Brian did this for my stroker and was almost the same as buying it from summit, but it is specifically for my set up!

 

[Abodybomber]

228-4 ,hands down.Will hammer ,with 3:55's,3:73's.

 

[BrianT]

Car originally had 3:55 when I got it, and would barely break the tires at the line before a gear and converter swap.

♦

I don't think that is going to be a problem with the stroker!! I'm building a 408 now and have 3.54 gears with 28 inch drag radials. I think I'm going to be severely traction limited and am looking at Cal-tracs also.

Sorry, can't help with the cam choice. That's why I'm using a local Mopar engine builder/machinist.

 

[OldmanRick]

I'm not real familiar with what the EZ efi can support, but the wheel numbers you quoted may be a stretch. 400hp at the wheel would be approaching 500 at the crank. I'm not sure you have the combo for that, although the efi when calculated properly should make a ton of torque.

So you don't think it will break the 400hp mark, which would be disappointing. I usually get disappointed by the dyno anyway. Can't say I’ve ever walked away with a smile before.

******* dyno's

I'm not saying you wont make the 400whp/500chp number. You may very well get close. The ootb heads and the efi are why i made the above statement. Don't get me wrong, that thing is gonna be a beast. And yes i too take chassis dyno numbers with a grain of salt. The're tuning tools only to me and the overall numbers don't mean ****. jmo

 

[autoxcuda]

Check with the EFI recomendation for a cam. I thought they like to run a higher centerline for EFI applications. Like maybe one of those cams on a couple degree higher, like 110 or 112 respectively.

Might really consider a custom cam for that application.

 

[Mo-Par]

I would say the first one of those two listed. Personally I would be looking at the Lunati Voo Doo cams. As far as gear goes it would help to know what height rear tire you are running. A bigger engine needs more duration and less gear generally.​

 

[winstoninwisc]

heres the deal of the week kimmer has a 308 cam kit for sale right now yes the 228-is the way to go but this 308 will rock your world your choice this order what you do with your car is your decision

308 kit huge pull 229comp cam or little more street 228 comp cam less stall needed
think it was rick said watch your vaccum tho kimmers cam gr8 deal for you go jump on it if i could sell my 360 parts off the motor i just found i would be all over it

small block parts for sale under mechanical parts wanted nice 360 stuff i just pulled yesterday heads pistons rods 4 grove pulley intakes so i can build a 408
i was going with the 228 for street ability but if i get that 308 kit i will get 500 hp outa it with indy heads and then try to get 425 to the wheels

 

[RAMM]

I would go custom, but if you need one of the 2 then the 224 is the one for the EZE EFI. I have an article about my 2012 EMC engine coming out in PHR soon. It is a 416 with EQ heads 10.3 comp EZE EFI and I was only able to coax 580 hp and 550 ftlbs. For what you are doing the smaller cam will do you well. JRob