413 build - No Power - Won't even chirp a tire!?

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DartJonny73

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Gentlemen,
I apologize in advance for this thread because I am here with the understanding that there is too much I don't know and can't learn without the help of actual knowledgeable people.
That said, I'll lay out the setup (as I remember it from the last mods about 10 years ago):
Car: 1973 Dodge Dart Sport
Rear: 3.55, 8 3/4, Posi
Trans: 727 TF with a 3000 stall converter in it (this was done at the advice of someone based on the cam)
Engine: 1964 413 from a Chrysler Imperial (340hp/470ft-lbs stock I believe)
Upgrades: Bored over .040
Edelbrock Hi Rise Int.
Edelbrock 750cfm 4 bbl
Mopar Purple Shaft 284/484 Cam (all hydraulic setup)
Headers, dual exhaust (I think it was 3" but could be 2.5")
MSD ignition setup
"Centrifugal advance distributor" - I wasn't there for this mod but I think it was described as a kit to be put into a vacuum advance distributor to convert it over to "centrifugal advance"

Performance: The car won't spin the tires (without a line loc which isn't working either right now) but it also doesn't have any real "get-up." It's sluggish and cuts out a little at the bottom and then, when the timing is set "perfect" it chokes up at about 4000-4100 RPMs... and that's absolute best case. Like I said though, it doesn't exactly have a lot of umph up to that point either.
We've change the ignition system over, read hundreds and thousands of books, articles, forum posts, talked to everyone we've met about it, but it just doesn't make sense to anyone we know. The engine was stock 340/470 and we did what should have been a really mild build that was more or less bolt-on. In an A-body that engine should be sick but instead it has been just a lot of heartache.
PLEASE help me/us! I just want to unlock the potential that is in that engine to be a great street build and if there are any good books or anything you guys can recommend so I can better understand the mechanics and how all of these components are working together and affecting each other (so I can hopefully solve future problems) please let me know!
Thank you all.
 
DartJonny73 said:
Gentlemen,
I apologize in advance for this thread because I am here with the understanding that there is too much I don't know and can't learn without the help of actual knowledgeable people.
That said, I'll lay out the setup (as I remember it from the last mods about 10 years ago):
Car: 1973 Dodge Dart Sport
Rear: 3.55, 8 3/4, Posi
Trans: 727 TF with a 3000 stall converter in it (this was done at the advice of someone based on the cam)
Engine: 1964 413 from a Chrysler Imperial (340hp/470ft-lbs stock I believe)
Upgrades: Bored over .040
Edelbrock Hi Rise Int.
Edelbrock 750cfm 4 bbl
Mopar Purple Shaft 284/484 Cam (all hydraulic setup)
Headers, dual exhaust (I think it was 3" but could be 2.5")
MSD ignition setup
"Centrifugal advance distributor" - I wasn't there for this mod but I think it was described as a kit to be put into a vacuum advance distributor to convert it over to "centrifugal advance"

Performance: The car won't spin the tires (without a line loc which isn't working either right now) but it also doesn't have any real "get-up." It's sluggish and cuts out a little at the bottom and then, when the timing is set "perfect" it chokes up at about 4000-4100 RPMs... and that's absolute best case. Like I said though, it doesn't exactly have a lot of umph up to that point either.
We've change the ignition system over, read hundreds and thousands of books, articles, forum posts, talked to everyone we've met about it, but it just doesn't make sense to anyone we know. The engine was stock 340/470 and we did what should have been a really mild build that was more or less bolt-on. In an A-body that engine should be sick but instead it has been just a lot of heartache.
PLEASE help me/us! I just want to unlock the potential that is in that engine to be a great street build and if there are any good books or anything you guys can recommend so I can better understand the mechanics and how all of these components are working together and affecting each other (so I can hopefully solve future problems) please let me know!
Thank you all.
Click to expand...
I'm no expert and others will chime in but.

what is your intial timing and what is your advance set at? What is "perfect" timing?

Also, how old is the MSD unit?

whats your CR?
 
dukeboy_318 said:
I'm no expert and others will chime in but.

what is your intial timing and what is your advance set at? What is "perfect" timing?

Also, how old is the MSD unit?

whats your CR?
Click to expand...

I guess that is a bit vague... I'd be lying if I told you the timing setting right now but I'll try and get the numbers (Car isn't here with me and I don't remember). By "perfect" I mean relatively as in we set it and then adjusted little by little based on trial and error and how it ran with each small adjustment.
The MSD unit is brand new, less than a month. These issues were going on since the build was completed but the MSD was installed recently to see if that would fix the issue.
 
dodge71demon said:
better question what's the cylinder quench
Click to expand...

I wish I could tell you. As little as I understand now, I understand far less back then and never thought to worry about/check any of these things. That's why I thought something might jump out at you guys that I didn't know about (which they already are).
 
was cam installed dot to dot had this on a 383 the cam was not installed correct it had been installed at wrong keyway of bottom timing chain mark
 
72golddustermike said:
was cam installed dot to dot had this on a 383 the cam was not installed correct it had been installed at wrong keyway of bottom timing chain mark
Click to expand...
this^

and was it installed at top dead center on the right stroke?
 
That is a pretty big cam

Other than something like throttle not opening or exhaust restriction your most likely suspects are wrong ignition timing and or distributor curve, or cam timed WRONG FOR APPLICATION

That is, you may need to advance it several degrees with a multi--key timing set
 
Check to make sure the cam is degreed in I had that same cam in a 69 383 with 10.5 to 1 pistons and a stock intake, carb, and exhaust manifolds with a 10" turbo action converter and 3:55 gears and from a dead stop it would put down about a 100 feet of tire marks. The car ran a 14.20 burning the tires the whole way. Also check fuel volume and pressure that maybe why it runs out of rpm's. Good Luck on your search
 
There is a lot of advice here and kind of all over the place. You say it chokes out at 4100 rpm. Can you describe this a bit better? Does it start to misfire and not rev any higher? Does it still run smooth and just run flat. Any backfires? Does it run well when driving normal light to mid throttle cruising?
 
My bet is camshaft timing. That cam should be installed probably down around 100 ICL......maybe even 98 depending on SCR. Also, ignition timing needs to be specific. Probably 16-20 initial with a total around 34-36 all in by 3K.
 
Ok, I'll throw out a guess too; Torque convertor failure.

It's a 413. It don't much matter how bad the tune might be on that baby. With a 3000TC and 3.55s it should be hauling azz. See the starter gear is 2.45 x 3.55 right? That's 8.70, which would be doggy for a teener with a 1800Tc.
But see the the TC should be multiplying that, to about double, off the line. So that would be around 17/1. So the lowly teener with 100ft lbs at 1800 blasts off at 17x100 = 1700 ftlbs. Granted it only lasts for a second, but the teener is moving out.
Now, here we have a 413 with a 3000tc, which might not make 2/1 output, but should still make 1.8 say. and at 3000 it might be makin 220 ftlbs with that big cam and say a lazy c/r. So we have 2.45 x 3.55 x 1.8 x 220 = 3444 ft lbs, just over double the teener. But if you take away the torque multiplication factor of 1.8, then you are down to 1913 ftlbs, which makes the BB feel like a nice teener.

Anyway, that's my guess
Oh yeah about the choking up, IMO,that's a second issue
 
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And along with this the balancer may have slipped. Sounds like it is "timed" by ear currently. Probably has ethanol fuel gunk in the fuel system as well if it is not driven much in 10 years.

RustyRatRod said:
My bet is camshaft timing. That cam should be installed probably down around 100 ICL......maybe even 98 depending on SCR. Also, ignition timing needs to be specific. Probably 16-20 initial with a total around 34-36 all in by 3K.
Click to expand...
 
Gents,
Thank you all for the feedback!
To answer a few of the questions:
1. It has always acted this way since it was originally built, so it's not something new after not having been driven.
2. Also, the gas tank was dropped out and leaned out, new sending unit and new fuel pump about a month ago when I got it back.
3. Also, at 4100ish it seems like it just chokes up like it just can't go ay higher and it has to come back down immediately; won't really hold there.
4. Yes, it has been timed "by ear." ....

I had narrowed it down to (based on my research) some sort of issue between the Cam and the torque converter... that's what I was thinking. I didn't know where to start though. I think I'll start with the cam and specifically the timing and installation. I agree that it could also have a separate torque converter issue but I think I'll try 1. CAM (installation and timing), 2. Torque converter, 3. Heads/valve train
Now just to find the time and $$$!
Thank you guys for your feedback and trying to help this MOPAR-lover learn and get this engine to perform and not embarrass!
 
DartJonny73 said:
Gents,
Thank you all for the feedback!
To answer a few of the questions:
1. It has always acted this way since it was originally built, so it's not something new after not having been driven.
2. Also, the gas tank was dropped out and leaned out, new sending unit and new fuel pump about a month ago when I got it back.
3. Also, at 4100ish it seems like it just chokes up like it just can't go ay higher and it has to come back down immediately; won't really hold there.
4. Yes, it has been timed "by ear." ....

I had narrowed it down to (based on my research) some sort of issue between the Cam and the torque converter... that's what I was thinking. I didn't know where to start though. I think I'll start with the cam and specifically the timing and installation. I agree that it could also have a separate torque converter issue but I think I'll try 1. CAM (installation and timing), 2. Torque converter, 3. Heads/valve train
Now just to find the time and $$$!
Thank you guys for your feedback and trying to help this MOPAR-lover learn and get this engine to perform and not embarrass!
Click to expand...
When the motor was built did you change the valve Springs to go with the cam? Stock worn out valve springs could float at that rpm or lower with a larger long duration cam.
What does it have for exhaust? headers? large dual exhaust?
 
Lots of arm chair mechanics here, but even if it should run better than than on any carb. I am betting the timing is off at the timing chain. Unless you use a degree wheel you can never trust dot to dot to be in the correct position.

Tom
 
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