440 Cooling Question “Champion Rad”

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Skeeter007

Skeeter007

Skeeter007
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Barrie Ontario Canada
This has been touched on a zillion times but here’s another thread with the same question.

My 71 Scamp build (link below) is nearing the start up phase. Standing in the way is the rad. I’m ready to purchase and I looking to save a few bucks and have decided to go with Champion. I went to order the rad and the tech told me to go with a 26” and dual 12” fans. He told me I’d have to modify the car to get this in. I’m not opposed to doing that. This car came originally with a 198 according to the tag. It currently has a 225 in her. So I’m going to guess it has a small opening where the rad sits. I have no access to the car until May so going to measure it is a no go. Especially with the mountain of snow we got. Has anyone done this operations? Is this something that can be done fairly easily? Does anyone have a part number for me to look at? The engine is currently on the run stand waiting on a few small items and the rad order. I’d like to run the stand with the rad that’s going in the car. This car will definitely be over the 550hp mark. She’s a full solid roller with all the goodies money tried to buy. Lol For details check out the link.

It’s been a long and winding road but there’s the light at the end of the proverbial tunnel.

Merry Christmas

Slow build 71 Scamp 440

IMG_9873.jpeg
 
IMHO, there are plenty of radiators available that will cool that just find without cutting on the car. Also, I don't recommend getting their fans, as they will be absolutely minimalist fans to maximize their profit. If you just have to have electric, I'd go with one of the FlexAlite Black Magic fans that move as close to 4000CFM as you can get. There are also more affordable options such as some of the fans from a Ford Taurus, for example that can be made to work. Some of those really skin it back moving some air.
 
RustyRatRod said:
IMHO, there are plenty of radiators available that will cool that just find without cutting on the car. Also, I don't recommend getting their fans, as they will be absolutely minimalist fans to maximize their profit. If you just have to have electric, I'd go with one of the FlexAlite Black Magic fans that move as close to 4000CFM as you can get. There are also more affordable options such as some of the fans from a Ford Taurus, for example that can be made to work. Some of those really skin it back moving some air.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. Do you have any link to the fans mentioned above? I’m almost certain I’m going electric. If I’m going to mix and match components I’m going to need to figure out shrouds and wiring. Was hoping for a drop in affordable package.
 

This is all the Black Magic fans Summit offers. You'll likely not find a drop in solution that actually works. Remember, you're putting a 440 in a slant 6 car. This is hot rodding.
 
RustyRatRod said:
This is all the Black Magic fans Summit offers. You'll likely not find a drop in solution that actually works. Remember, you're putting a 440 in a slant 6 car. This is hot rodding.
Click to expand...

I’m looking at their website now.
The crappy thing about this, is trial and error is tuff up here in Canada. Everything is 35% more, everything takes weeks to get here. Shipping is hard especially if it needs to go back over and over again. Hence the drop in solution I’m seeking. Most of the threads I read end in “what was the outcome” one thread had his 440 up for sale months later.
I do have a set of dual electrics up in the parts attic but I don’t think they’ll do the job. Think they’re off a Pathfinder. Who know. Should look. Once upon a time I was going to use them to cool the slant.
 
Skeeter007 said:
I’m looking at their website now.
The crappy thing about this, is trial and error is tuff up here in Canada. Everything is 35% more, everything takes weeks to get here. Shipping is hard especially if it needs to go back over and over again. Hence the drop in solution I’m seeking. Most of the threads I read end in “what was the outcome” one thread had his 440 up for sale months later.
I do have a set of dual electrics up in the parts attic but I don’t think they’ll do the job. Think they’re off a Pathfinder. Who know. Should look. Once upon a time I was going to use them to cool the slant.
Click to expand...
Oh GAWD. I didn't even notice that. Yall got it bad. We're all on the same hunk of dirt. It just doesn't make sense. I think it's all a big money grab.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Oh GAWD. I didn't even notice that. Yall got it bad. We're all on the same hunk of dirt. It just doesn't make sense. I think it's all a big money grab.
Click to expand...
I don’t doubt it. The big three love to hammer us with brokerage fees. If worst comes to worst I’ll have to get a package deal that will somewhat bolt up. Can’t be sending stuff back and forth. I have access to a shop for a few weeks in the spring to jam all this stuff in. So it needs to be ready and go without a hitch. Hahhahahahahaha <———— hahhahahahhaha

I’ll get one reorder attempt before I’m evicted
 
Skeeter007 said:
I don’t doubt it. The big three love to hammer us with brokerage fees. If worst comes to worst I’ll have to get a package deal that will somewhat bolt up. Can’t be sending stuff back and forth. I have access to a shop for a few weeks in the spring to jam all this stuff in. So it needs to be ready and go without a hitch. Hahhahahahahaha <———— hahhahahahhaha

I’ll get one reorder attempt before I’m evicted
Click to expand...
I would ask what the CFM rating on their fan package is. I'm sure it's low. Maybe they offer an upgrade that will be a bolt on. You're gonna need 4K CFM with a 440, IMO.
 
Your rad support opening would be sized for a 22" rad. The factory used a 22" rad to cool the 383 GTS's

3 core copper brass and a fixed 7 blade fan.

IMHO

If you match the OEM fan, pulleys, water pump and factory style copper brass rad you can't go wrong .

Lastly, while electric fans can and do work.

Search here on FABO for cooling problems. 98% start with "my aluminum radiator and high flow water pump"
 
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Dana67Dart said:
Your rad support opening would be sized for a 22" rad. The factory used a 22" rad to cool the 383 GTS's

3 core copper brass and a fixed 7 blade fan.

IMHO

If you match the OEM fan, pulleys, water pump and factory style copper brass rad you can't go wrong .
Click to expand...
Thanks for the advice. I’m planning on aluminum and electric fans. I was hoping the Champion would do that.
 
Dana67Dart said:
Your rad support opening would be sized for a 22" rad. The factory used a 22" rad to cool the 383 GTS's

3 core copper brass and a fixed 7 blade fan.

IMHO

If you match the OEM fan, pulleys, water pump and factory style copper brass rad you can't go wrong .

Lastly, while electric fans can and do work.

Search here on FABO for cooling problems. 98% start with "my aluminum radiator and high flow water pump"
Click to expand...
I don't disagree, but he seemed intent on an electric fan(s) so I didn't see the need to argue. There are so many, many, MANY, MANY over heating stories on here involving electric fans you'd figure people would get a clue. That said, I think most of them are probably inadequate from people trying to buy bargain basement deals.
 
I guess I’m clueless. Lol
Can anyone answer the original question in regards to Champion or should I be looking at another maker. B cool looks to make a similar product with bigger tubes in a two row put the price climbs. Again guys, living up here in Canada has some draw backs with pricing and delivery hence why I’m looking for an easy drop in solution that won’t have to trialed and errored and sent back. As much as I appreciate all the advice the thread is based on experience with this. Last thing I’m looking for is an argument.
 
Last edited:
Well indirectly @Dana67Dart dart did answer your question with what would be the best solution. You may be going down a road of inadequate solutions and headaches with trying to fab customs shrouds to make ill fitting electric fans fit into your substandard aluminum radiator which is too wide for the factory 22" cutout.

Your answer- Yes you Can widen the cutout hole and people have done so, won’t look right and will be a total pain in the ***.

The part number for a champion rad that might work for you from summit is: sum-384022

I believe that your initial post said or referenced ‘cheap’ solution was desirable, but by my account you’ll be about $600 Canadian for a radiator and another $600 for a descent fan solution from summit and that doesn’t included, shipping, duty, and tax. Call the total bill $1400 for something that you have to now go modify and fabricate to make work. That number doesn’t even include a proper 2 stage electrical controller and possible upgraded alternator to power the new fan set up too. Add another $500-600 for that.

Now back to what dana67dart had to say. I agree with him 100% 10 times out of 10. A Radiator from a C body or big block dart with a recored 3 row copper core would run you about 800 Canadian from a local rad shop of your choice. This will bolt straight in and work best to keep your engine the coolest when coupled with a factory rad shroud, 7 blade factory fan, and pulleys to match. Fan, pulleys, and shroud should be able to be found for around $400 Canadian or less (likely less). I probably have the pulley’s you need and I also have a 7 blade fan, not sure if I want to part with the fan but you should be able to find these closer to you rather than shipping from my part of the country here in Alberta. You will be less money in the long run and will be happier with both the look and performance of the oem style solution, plus it will just look more polished and make the whole package of your car look more complete and proper. If you’re not saving from doing your cheap solution why not just do what is considered by many as the right solution, deal with local vendors, and have less headache along the way.

If you’d like to consider the copper 3 row mopar solution I’d recommend you round up the parts first before finding a used rad and then having it recored. That way you know you have it all, and it fits before dropping the largest part of the investment. The rad shop portion.

Do look back at the zillions of posts about this subject and see how many of them had issue for one reason or another. And do a search for cooling problems and see why most have problems with aftermarket champion rad style solutions. I had a big block higher horsepower engine in my Belvedere (original slant 6 car) and it ran nice and cool with the 22" 3 row copper rad (c body tank numbers) and 7 blade fan.

Wish I had a better picture of the setup but this was the one I used on the 69 Belvedere. It was with 68 or 67 and down c-body rad part number, redone, shroud, with 7 blade fan. The motor was a low deck stroker making low 500’s HP and even more torque

Good luck with your project! Sounds like it’ll be a pretty zippy big block dart. Err…. Scamp I mean!
:)

Ps. Here’s a potential core in your area. OEM Mopar Radiator

Too bad this one is done already but it may also be a candidate for a 3 row if the tanks are wide enough and it has the provisions for the shroud mount too
22" A- body Radiator, Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth

This one has a shroud (not sure if a van shroud aligns properly for a car) and may have tanks wide enough for 3 rows: Dodge rad

Here’s an original 340 rad which may be a good core. Has shroud mounts. You’d have to talk him down some. Bit pricey for what it is. 1969 Dodge Dart Swinger 340 Radiator, A-body



IMG_4661.jpeg
 
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While I do appreciate all the indirect option that have been sent my way and I honestly do appreciate them, I was asking for someone that went down the Champion road. If I don’t get the answer I need then yes I’ll have to look at other options and open the budget up. I wasn’t looking for argument or any slights from people. I get that there is a lot of experience in this group. I also get that there is folks that want to keep there cars looking as factory as possible. This car is definitely not that. I assumed that someone accomplished this with a Champion cooling solution and would chime in. That hasn’t happened yet. I may have to move to another solution and my next step was Cold Case or B-Cool two row with big tubes. But my goal is a drop in aluminum rad with electric fans. Finding factory items is near impossible and when found the cost is nuts.
Anyway this thread turned into what I thought it would. Lol

P.S 60 amp alt with firewall bypass
 
Last edited:
Plenty of people have mounted up a 26" Champion in a 22" opening core support and have had success. While not ideal, it'd still cool better than a smaller Champion 22" radiator mounted on the same 22" core support.

Any electric fan capable of pulling enough air to cool 550hp will likely need more than a 60A alternator to keep up - especially a stock Mopar alternator. What do those put out at idle, 30A, maybe even less? The electric fan you'll need will easily require that on it's own. So, either upgrade the alternator (and wiring -depending on where you're pulling power from), or go with a mechanical fan.
 
mopowers said:
Plenty of people have mounted up a 26" Champion in a 22" opening core support and have had success. While not ideal, it'd still cool better than a smaller Champion 22" radiator mounted on the same 22" core support.

Any electric fan capable of pulling enough air to cool 550hp will likely need more than a 60A alternator to keep up - especially a stock Mopar alternator. What do those put out at idle, 30A, maybe even less? The electric fan you'll need will easily require that on it's own. So, either upgrade the alternator (and wiring -depending on where you're pulling power from), or go with a mechanical fan.
Click to expand...

I have a couple higher output alts sitting here. Currently in the car on the slant is the 30-ish and on the stand is the 60-ish. With the bypass in place I’d be comfortable running a higher output. So 100-ish will make its way in.
This is where I think electrics will shine at idle and low RPM work.
I’m really starting to lean on a two core with big tubes.
 
4mulas said:
Well indirectly @Dana67Dart dart did answer your question with what would be the best solution. You may be going down a road of inadequate solutions and headaches with trying to fab customs shrouds to make ill fitting electric fans fit into your substandard aluminum radiator which is too wide for the factory 22" cutout.

Your answer- Yes you Can widen the cutout hole and people have done so, won’t look right and will be a total pain in the ***.

The part number for a champion rad that might work for you from summit is: sum-384022

I believe that your initial post said or referenced ‘cheap’ solution was desirable, but by my account you’ll be about $600 Canadian for a radiator and another $600 for a descent fan solution from summit and that doesn’t included, shipping, duty, and tax. Call the total bill $1400 for something that you have to now go modify and fabricate to make work. That number doesn’t even include a proper 2 stage electrical controller and possible upgraded alternator to power the new fan set up too. Add another $500-600 for that.

Now back to what dana67dart had to say. I agree with him 100% 10 times out of 10. A Radiator from a C body or big block dart with a recored 3 row copper core would run you about 800 Canadian from a local rad shop of your choice. This will bolt straight in and work best to keep your engine the coolest when coupled with a factory rad shroud, 7 blade factory fan, and pulleys to match. Fan, pulleys, and shroud should be able to be found for around $400 Canadian or less (likely less). I probably have the pulley’s you need and I also have a 7 blade fan, not sure if I want to part with the fan but you should be able to find these closer to you rather than shipping from my part of the country here in Alberta. You will be less money in the long run and will be happier with both the look and performance of the oem style solution, plus it will just look more polished and make the whole package of your car look more complete and proper. If you’re not saving from doing your cheap solution why not just do what is considered by many as the right solution, deal with local vendors, and have less headache along the way.

If you’d like to consider the copper 3 row mopar solution I’d recommend you round up the parts first before finding a used rad and then having it recored. That way you know you have it all, and it fits before dropping the largest part of the investment. The rad shop portion.

Do look back at the zillions of posts about this subject and see how many of them had issue for one reason or another. And do a search for cooling problems and see why most have problems with aftermarket champion rad style solutions. I had a big block higher horsepower engine in my Belvedere (original slant 6 car) and it ran nice and cool with the 22" 3 row copper rad (c body tank numbers) and 7 blade fan.

Wish I had a better picture of the setup but this was the one I used on the 69 Belvedere. It was with 68 or 67 and down c-body rad part number, redone, shroud, with 7 blade fan. The motor was a low deck stroker making low 500’s HP and even more torque

Good luck with your project! Sounds like it’ll be a pretty zippy big block dart. Err…. Scamp I mean!
:)

Ps. Here’s a potential core in your area. OEM Mopar Radiator

Too bad this one is done already but it may also be a candidate for a 3 row if the tanks are wide enough and it has the provisions for the shroud mount too
22" A- body Radiator, Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth

This one has a shroud (not sure if a van shroud aligns properly for a car) and may have tanks wide enough for 3 rows: Dodge rad

Here’s an original 340 rad which may be a good core. Has shroud mounts. You’d have to talk him down some. Bit pricey for what it is. 1969 Dodge Dart Swinger 340 Radiator, A-body



View attachment 1716492478
Click to expand...
Lee is just 20 minutes away and we have done some business. His place is awesome.
If I go original he’s the guy in my area. National Moparts is also just a small jump but prices are a bit higher.

*Water pump dumps to drivers side

Thanks for taking the time.



IMG_9945.jpeg
 
Skeeter007 said:
While I do appreciate all the indirect option that have been sent my way and I honestly do appreciate them, I was asking for someone that went down the Champion road. If I don’t get the answer I need then yes I’ll have to look at other options and open the budget up. I wasn’t looking for argument or any slights from people. I get that there is a lot of experience in this group. I also get that there is folks that want to keep there cars looking as factory as possible. This car is definitely not that. I assumed that someone accomplished this with a Champion cooling solution and would chime in. That hasn’t happened yet. I may have to move to another solution and my next step was Cold Case or B-Cool two row with big tubes. But my goal is a drop in aluminum rad with electric fans. Finding factory items is near impossible and when found the cost is nuts.
Anyway this thread turned into what I thought it would. Lol

P.S 60 amp alt with firewall bypass
Click to expand...

Get a cold case radiator with two cores.

Skip the electric fans. If you are dead set on electric fans don’t use that shitty “shroud” that isn’t a shroud at all.

You are better off with the electric fans and no “shroud” than using one of those things.
 
Heywodja said:
Here is a factory style radiator that would have come stock in 73-76 a bodies, select a it's 26" wide, triple core with AC, they are copper / brass, all you would need to do is open the radiator opening up a couple of inches wider on each side..

Dodge Dart, 1973-76 V8 318/340/360 Radiator - US Radiator
Click to expand...
I’ll check it out in more detail when I get out of the kitchen. I do have the driver side water pump though.
 
Skeeter007 said:
I guess I’m clueless. Lol
Can anyone answer the original question in regards to Champion or should I be looking at another maker. B cool looks to make a similar product with bigger tubes in a two row put the price climbs. Again guys, living up here in Canada has some draw backs with pricing and delivery hence why I’m looking for an easy drop in solution that won’t have to trialed and errored and sent back. As much as I appreciate all the advice the thread is based on experience with this. Last thing I’m looking for is an argument.
Click to expand...
No, I didn't say that. You inferred incorrectly.
 
Skeeter007 said:
I guess I’m clueless. Lol
Can anyone answer the original question in regards to Champion or should I be looking at another maker. B cool looks to make a similar product with bigger tubes in a two row put the price climbs. Again guys, living up here in Canada has some draw backs with pricing and delivery hence why I’m looking for an easy drop in solution that won’t have to trialed and errored and sent back. As much as I appreciate all the advice the thread is based on experience with this. Last thing I’m looking for is an argument.
Click to expand...
So far, no one is arguing. If you're looking for someone to powder you butt, tell you a bedtime story and tuck you in, that ain't gonna happen. If you're lookin for good advice, you've come to the right place.

So here's the skinny about Champion and ANY other "bargain" type radiators. They're a crap shoot. Most of them do pretty good. But they do have a fairly high rate of ill fitting, don't cool worth crap or just don't fit at all, so be warned. Having said that, I have one in my 64 Valiant. It cools GREAT. The fit could certainly be better. I didn't have to modify anything, it just fits VERY tight, because the side brackets are welded in in such a way that they position the core closer to the engine than they should and that takes away valuable space A bodies need. Especially early A bodies. But yeah, if you get a Champion, or any other import radiator, you'll likely get one that'll work. The odds are in your favor.

Since you're looking for something that's an "easy drop in solution that won’t have to trialed and errored and sent back", your words, I'd NOT look at a 26" radiator. That Be Cool unit, while more pricey will cool a Sherman Tank with two rows of big tubes. That's about as optimal design as you can get.

Lastly, before you ASSUME someone is talking about YOU, read and comprehend what they wrote. I have no problem pointing YOU if I mean to. I did not. I said "some of these guys" or some such, which does not indicate YOU, because you have not proven you're not listening. Yet. If you're looking for a more concrete answer than I've given about import radiators, you won't get one and if you do, it will be incorrect. The best anyone can offer is "Yeah, they'll "probably" work good", as most do, just remember that word "MOST". Good luck with your choice.
 
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