440" Small Block

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inkjunkie

inkjunkie

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Sitting here, cause that is all that I can do today & wondering about things. Lets say a guy was starting with nothing. And he wanted more or less just a toy. Gets driven on the street, sees the track several times a summer. Car will have an overdrive trans with a lockup converter so if 4:10s and a loose converter were needed would not be a big problem. Car will also have efi. You see the Mopar crate 440" small block advertised. What would it take to build one? Lets just say footing the bill for one of those Ritter blocks was tolerable as well. Would like to see the car run mid-low 10's. What cylinder heads? I do have a set of Brodix b1-ba castings but have been told they are not a good idea on a n/a pump gas type of build. I know building a forced induction motor would make this fairly simple, but lets leave that out of it for now. Mechanical roller is also acceptable. No matter which way I go custom headers will also be ok.......Not looking for a car with daily driver style manners.......:happy1:
 
I do not think any one biulds a good lockup converter for older mopar overdrive trannys, I checked into it about six months ago could not find one.
I did not know the B1 heads are not good for a N/A motor, you may want to call Brodix and see what they have to say.
Sounds like a fun ride, should run 10s with the right parts.
If the B1 heads do not work, Indy-1s I think would be a good head for a 440 SB.
I have been thinking about a 440 SB for my next motor also but it would be much cheaper for me to put nitrous on the car.
If you do the motor let us follow along please.
 
Trans is a gm4l80e, so convertor choice is not a problem.....I spoke to Shady Dell and that was his opinion on the heads, for what that is worth. Spoke with a local shop and he thought that on a bigger small block they would be fine....
 
Who ever told you the Brodix heads are not good for a N/A build should be shot, drag away, beaten, shot again, and then I guess we could bury him, up to his neck covered in Hunny next to a army ant hill in South America for a suitable ending.

My other cylinder head choices would be a LP Commando or W series head.
 
rumblefish360 said:
Who ever told you the Brodix heads are not good for a N/A build should be shot, drag away, beaten, shot again, and then I guess we could bury him, up to his neck covered in Hunny next to a army ant hill in South America for a suitable ending.

My other cylinder head choices would be a LP Commando or W series head.
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Now come on Rumblefish why dont you just tell us what you really think. LOL
 
inkjunkie said:
Sitting here, cause that is all that I can do today & wondering about things. Lets say a guy was starting with nothing. And he wanted more or less just a toy. Gets driven on the street, sees the track several times a summer. Car will have an overdrive trans with a lockup converter so if 4:10s and a loose converter were needed would not be a big problem. Car will also have efi. You see the Mopar crate 440" small block advertised. What would it take to build one? Lets just say footing the bill for one of those Ritter blocks was tolerable as well. Would like to see the car run mid-low 10's. What cylinder heads? I do have a set of Brodix b1-ba castings but have been told they are not a good idea on a n/a pump gas type of build. I know building a forced induction motor would make this fairly simple, but lets leave that out of it for now. Mechanical roller is also acceptable. No matter which way I go custom headers will also be ok.......Not looking for a car with daily driver style manners.......:happy1:
Click to expand...

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1110_pump_gas_small_block_mopar/index.html

Your heads will work fine once ported. This build isn't cheap as pointed out, but not much more than a 440BB built to make the same power.
Just change the 4" crank for a K1 4.125 (we're building one at the moment) and if you really want a large bore you'll have to get you an aftermarket block but it's not necessary for the power your looking for.
Brian
 
rumblefish360 said:
Who ever told you the Brodix heads are not good for a N/A build should be shot, drag away, beaten, shot again, and then I guess we could bury him, up to his neck covered in Hunny next to a army ant hill in South America for a suitable ending.

My other cylinder head choices would be a LP Commando or W series head.
Click to expand...
I was trading emails with Shady Dell......

dodge freak said:
If you don't have any small block parts to reuse, why not just get a 440 big block ? It be cheaper to build
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I do have the heads, and a 360 block.....

ou812 said:
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1110_pump_gas_small_block_mopar/index.html

Your heads will work fine once ported. This build isn't cheap as pointed out, but not much more than a 440BB built to make the same power.
Just change the 4" crank for a K1 4.125 (we're building one at the moment) and if you really want a large bore you'll have to get you an aftermarket block but it's not necessary for the power your looking for.
Brian
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Thanks Brian. Are off the shelf pistons available? Needs to be a pump gas build & I have read in a few spots that "standard" small block pistons are not compatible with these heads.....
 
how much does the car weigh now, and what does the chassis have now?
 
moper said:
how much does the car weigh now, and what does the chassis have now?
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No drive line in it. As to weight don't know. Just your run of the mill 69 Dart, caged, relocated springs & mini tub
 
All steel, full weight, full interior, 4L60E, steel cage... using 200lbs driver... You're looking to put what I'd estimate as a 3700lbs car into low tens on street radials, 4.10s, on pump gas, and naturally aspirated? You'd need a hell of a lot more horsepower than a stock block can reliably do. I think you're looking at needing a real 750-800hp. That's maxing out the B1-BAs and camming them to make use of it. You'll need more gear to get it into the power range. If you can get the car lighter. A moly cage, racing disc brakes, a 904 and GV unit instead of that massive power draw 4L60E, lose the interior... If you could get the weight down to 3300 race ready ou could run the numebers on 650-700hp. It doesnt sound like much, but it's a lot easier to do. I'd still run the Ritter block tho. Not to mention top dollar pistons and rings and a vacuum pump.
 
I've gone 10.50's in regular air @ 3350lbs. with an engine that made 468ft.lbs. and only 560HP!
Are these the std. BA heads or the MC style head?
 
inkjunkie said:
The standard ones......
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No piston trouble there. They are in the std location. Actually with some porting, you can make very good power with them. Just have to know how to cam it and make sure the rest of the intake and exhaust system supports the build.
You could more or less copy my build from CC, and substitute the block, run a 4.060 bore and 4" crank for now to keep cost down. That build made 620Hp and 540Tq. That should run mid 10's in most any car that can hook, and manage 1.45 60ft's.

For a real streeter, I would lower the compression to 10.5:1, same cam, true ultra 950HP carb. Should make 600HP no problem.
 
ou812 said:
I've gone 10.50's in regular air @ 3350lbs. with an engine that made 468ft.lbs. and only 560HP!
Are these the std. BA heads or the MC style head?
Click to expand...

Not on radial slicks with 4.10s, street suspension, a street convertor, and the driveline loss of that transmission you didn't. And he's talking faster than that (low tens...) Let's be real here Brian. Your car is basically a race car that you drive on the street. A street car that races once in a while takes more and you know it.
 
ou812 said:
For a real streeter, I would lower the compression to 10.5:1, same cam, true ultra 950HP carb. Should make 600HP no problem.
Click to expand...


Which wont run the numbers in the car as dsecribed. :happy1:
 
BB heads flow so much better than SB heads

i dont think it would be worth "mega porting" SB heads to get the flow numbers. when you do that it thins out parts of the heads and stuff you might not want to be narrow walled.

for the same money you could have BB heads with 2.20" intake valves or something lol
and stroker kits for BB cost under 2k

i guess if you were trying to keep a numbers matching engine block in the car then maybe
 
For what it is worth I have discussed the driveline loss with a few different trans builders. They explained to me that when you toss that boat anchor of a factory convertor and replace it with a modern unit the bulk of the power loss goes away. This info came from builders of these units, not "internet folklore". The 4l80e maybe a bit heavier than some, but how much does a 904/gv weigh?? Car does have relocated superstock springs in it. If/when the thing actually happens very well may get a set of Caltracs or have a 4 link put in the car. As to a carb choice, they will not be one. Car will be fuel injected. Not trying to get into a another pissing match over my trans choice, everyone is entitled to there opinion of mine. There is no full interior in the car, not that the extra 40 pounds of rear seat is going to make or break anything. To me, the marginal weight savings you get from going all glass just is not worth it,not for a street based car. The glass parts, for the most part, fit like *** and will only send the price of the bodywork, which is already done, even higher. If, because my car is.2 or .3 slower than if it had all glass and a slighly lighter trans so be it. I have a 40 mile or so drive into any of the car hangouts, so an od is a necessary evil for me. If 4.10 gears are not enough, I will run steeper. With a.75 4th gear it is going to take some of the gear out of the car no matter what I run. Not to mention that the car has a, dare I say it, 9" under it. So if need be a simple enough to pull off second center case with a spool and whatever gear ratio necessary is not out of the question.......
 
moper said:
Not on radial slicks with 4.10s, street suspension, a street convertor, and the driveline loss of that transmission you didn't. And he's talking faster than that (low tens...) Let's be real here Brian. Your car is basically a race car that you drive on the street. A street car that races once in a while takes more and you know it.
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I disagree. My car has ladder bars, and an 8" converter. What else makes it a race car? It's all steel minus the hood, roll bar, full interior, everything works including the cig lighter!
Oh, I have a spool. I also have a heavy dana, small tire, 3150 race weight, and a low HP small block...

If he builds 100+ ft.lbs. more than me, your talking an easy 10 sec. ride. If he wants low 10's then yes it'll take more effort in the chassis, but shouldn't be unstreetable.
With that large of an engine, 4.10 gear is fine. The converter will be the biggest draw back but with so much power on tap, it will make up for most of that. It only needs to go 1.45-1.48 60ft. to run mid 10's with that much power.

If you can't run mid 10's with 600HP and half an effort with the chassis there is most definitely something wrong!
 
Forgot to mention I also run a transbrake and 2 step. That's needed when you have no HP!!
When you build a decent amount of power, you can cut back on pure drag race equip. like tranbrakes and 8" converters.
For instance...when I ran the low 485HP 410 in my car, because it made so much tq, it left with a 1.42 60ft. but only managed a 10.90 pass (figured because we were at an 1/8 mile track...ran 6.94). I used a shelf 10" converter, mufflers, static water pump, alternator, foot braked the car and used the larger headers. So the engine was down on power over the dyno # by a fair amount...yet it ran bitchin! If I added 200lbs. to my car, and 150HP I still think mid to low 10's would have been REALISTIC!! Actually, a 4.10 gear would have been much better because I was blowing through the power band of that engine...

Those are my real life experiences...lets hear more real life experiences before we continiue to shoot down this guys goals...
Brian
 
ou812 said:
.................
If you can't run mid 10's with 600HP and half an effort with the chassis there is most definitely something wrong!
Click to expand...

I completely agree. My chassis is nothing special at all and it gets it done.

My Barracuda is a "street car" with stock springs, drag shocks, 3250#'s, 727 trans (no brake), and Hoosier QTP, 4.10 gear, mufflers. With my "small cammed" 410 stroker it runs 10.90' in the heat of the summer (90+ degrees). I don't have dyno numbers, but all the calculations I have run on my combo using both MPH and dyno sims have shown that I have around 520-530 ish hp. If I had 600 hp I guarantee that I would be in the lowwwwwww 10's.
 
ou812 said:
Forgot to mention I also run a transbrake and 2 step. That's needed when you have no HP!!
When you build a decent amount of power, you can cut back on pure drag race equip. like tranbrakes and 8" converters.
For instance...when I ran the low 485HP 410 in my car, because it made so much tq, it left with a 1.42 60ft. but only managed a 10.90 pass (figured because we were at an 1/8 mile track...ran 6.94). I used a shelf 10" converter, mufflers, static water pump, alternator, foot braked the car and used the larger headers. So the engine was down on power over the dyno # by a fair amount...yet it ran bitchin! If I added 200lbs. to my car, and 150HP I still think mid to low 10's would have been REALISTIC!! Actually, a 4.10 gear would have been much better because I was blowing through the power band of that engine...

Those are my real life experiences...lets hear more real life experiences before we continiue to shoot down this guys goals...
Brian
Click to expand...
For what it is worth, there is a 9.75 convertor available for my trans. It is a multi disc unit with "stall speeds up to 4400 rpm".
 
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