500+ci Builder

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IBSorgn

IBSorgn

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I joined this forum because I'm at wits end trying to find a builder that can build to my performance requirements, within a few boundary's, and of course budget. Now I know many of you are going to laugh at my performance requirements as they are relatively low and there in lies the rub. Most builders are accustom to building for maximum output and, I believe, they simply don't know how to throttle things down and work within a small budget.
In my case, I'm wanting a street motor, 500+ci, capable of producing 600tq at 3200rpm and holding it for a minimum of 1000rpm. HP is relatively mild at 1 to 1.1 hp per ci with maximum hp developed inside of 5500rpm. Motor should be able to rev safety to 6000rpm. I consider these attributes to define a low RPM motor. The only boundaries I'm setting are a minimum of 10" of vacuum, hydraulic lifters, maximum converter need at 3000, B body oil pan, straight spark plug angle, maximum 93 octane, aluminum heads and if possible a dual plane manifold. This criteria really is defining a low maintenance motor with and a friendly behavior. Finally, completed within a $8500 budget. I don't really care if the block is B or RB.
Most of the time I'm finding that the builders are wanting to overbuild, and/or using premium components which are at odds with my budget. I have found one builder that can do the build but it would sure be nice to have a few to pick from just to keep things honest. I should say a couple were within $1500 but the majority were over 11K.
Motor must be a complete running motor which I get to personally be present for the tuning and pulls. Of the 10 builders I've talked to, two were unwilling to deliver a dyno sheet or allow me to be present for the running (I found that very odd as most were welcoming to my presents).
As you notice, I do not place demands on components nor their specifications but I do request a detailed list of components manufacturers as I do not want any low quality oddball stuff being used unless they can vouch for its integrity.

Am I being to unrealistic?

BTW, if any of you builders have a recipe for a motor that would meet my needs let me know as I would like to compare it with my own personal formula.

Many thanks for your replies.

:blob:
 
I to had the same concerns as you did when wanted a 528 Hemi , I can tell you to stay totally away from Indy , they a total waste of time . I settled on Gosselin automotive , he was thousands cheaper then everyone else and a really nice guy to deal with . He custom builds all his motors in house and every motor gets run and broken in before you get it ( and yes you can go see it get run at Jims shop . He will ship the engine right to your door . He does any kind of Mopar engine you want . In my case it was a 528 Hemi . You get all this and dont need to deal with the arrogance of Indy or Barton .

There contact info is Gasselin automotive 1 774 573 0127
 
If I could make a recommendation, I'd say to give Mike at MRL a call. He's working on building me a 408 stroker right now that is supposed to put out 500+ HP.

http://www.mrlperformance.com/

I researched through the forum on FABO and was told a lot of really good things about him. From what I've seen his costs are reasonable (not cheap though) for the work he performs and components he uses. I had gotten some other recommendations from members also but it seemed as though the biggest praise seemed to be about MRL. If you're like me, you may not have noticed his ad on the right hand side of the forum pages. He is an advertiser on this site. It won't hurt to give him a call and see what he has to say. - He won't high pressure you into anything.

I'm sure there are probably a number of really good machine shop/ engine builders out there. By the time the thread that I had started had finished running it's course, I had a list of who to call and who to avoid. It really helped me to make my decision.

Several people told me to avoid Indy for an engine build. Though it seems that everybody does like their heads.
 
X2 on Mike at MRL. Have talked to him several times and will be taking my stuff to him in a few weeks to let him build. Very realistic and down to earth about what he does.
 
Certainly possible. My combo is a 4.15 stroke in a 400 block for 500 ci. Made 550 HP at 5100 rpm and 610 torque at 4100 rpm, with pocket ported 452 heads. Torque was over 550 ft/lbs from 2700 to 5200 rpm. Cam is a comp hydraulic roller 236/242 duration 541/544 lift. Intake was a Holley Street Dominator with a 750 DP, but a Performer RPM would work the same. I am in the process of changing to Edelbrock RPM heads. The stock heads flowed 250 cfm but nosed over after 400 lift. The eddies keep climbing, so I'm interested to see what difference they make in total HP and rev range. It wont go back to the dyno, but I have a good baseline at the track to compare to. Price, who knows, I never added it up.
 
I've always enjoyed building my own but you need a good machinest. Plenty of good deals on rotating assembles in about any cubes you want. The big decision that you have to make that drives the cost up is strengthen a factory block or go after market block. The power level you want to make, factory block should be fine and street worthy. By a book on stroking a big block and read the ins and outs before you let someone talk you into building an engine for you. You need to know something about it before you spend money that doesn't need to be spent.
 
Call Mike at MRL, he's a very nice guy to talk to even if he isn't building you an engine. I have had several conversations with him.

If you want an engine built, give him an idea of what you want and budget.

He'll tell you straight up if he can do it or not.
 
I hear a lot of bad talk with Indy cylinder head and others like them. I know they are arrogant. With me it's all about business. I've bought a lot of good parts cheap from them. Keep in mind It's just business. Don't rush. If you are not wanting to build your own engine, I've heard a lot of good things about MRL. Never done any business with them. They are a vendor on the site you can message about a build.
 
As a private builder I can do a lot of things... But I think the 1.1hp/inch, for less than $16/hp, compelely dyno'd and ready to go is a next-to-impossible package to do for anybody. The 496 I'm assembling now is low budget. It's a previously machined 383 block plus all his other ancillary components that have only 800 miles on them. I did a little more to it, but the block was basically set except for a sonic test and main studs. With the new heads (decently ported Stealths he basically stole from a pro shop), new cam, and rotating kit - he's into it for close to $5K. Nevermind the dyno time which is another $600 plus supplies. So - what do you already have? If you have a wish and some cash - you frankly don't have enough and I'd really question the ability to have anyone do it for your limit. You cannot build to play with the big boys on a cub scout budget unless you have a boatload of the right parts already. The power requirements are no big deal although the hydraulic lifter would be an issue for me given the vacuum requirements. The budget is way off base IMO.
 
moper said:
As a private builder I can do a lot of things... But I think the 1.1hp/inch, for less than $16/hp, compelely dyno'd and ready to go is a next-to-impossible package to do for anybody. The 496 I'm assembling now is low budget. It's a previously machined 383 block plus all his other ancillary components that have only 800 miles on them. I did a little more to it, but the block was basically set except for a sonic test and main studs. With the new heads (decently ported Stealths he basically stole from a pro shop), new cam, and rotating kit - he's into it for close to $5K. Nevermind the dyno time which is another $600 plus supplies. So - what do you already have? If you have a wish and some cash - you frankly don't have enough and I'd really question the ability to have anyone do it for your limit. You cannot build to play with the big boys on a cub scout budget unless you have a boatload of the right parts already. The power requirements are no big deal although the hydraulic lifter would be an issue for me given the vacuum requirements. The budget is way off base IMO.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree. If your starting with zero parts in your toy box. I think your under funded. The heads I had IQ52 Jim Laroy do for my build of 650 hp, I have $3500.00 in them with his work, the new parts and the new castings!
I bought a low hrs 470 short block at a hell of a good price and I still figure I'll have 10-11K in it, dyno'd and drop in ready.
 
Done a lot of reading especially Finkbeiner, among others, and I feel pretty comfortable about two things 1) Don't have the tools and machining necessary to build my own motor although I would really enjoy that and 2) I believe I have a good, not great mind you, understanding of these motors to the point that what I'm asking for is reasonable and should be able to do within my budget, provided however, unnecessary work and costly parts aren't used.
 
Maybe you should read my post again. I have no desire to "Play with the Big Boys" and can't see how you are reading that. I now have two builders that say they can build within my budget, maybe they are more reasonable with their labor and machining costs than others. Glad that I made this post as it is attracting some builders. One or two more and I should have enough comparisons to make a selection.
 
SGBARRACUDA said:
I tend to agree. If your starting with zero parts in your toy box. I think your under funded. The heads I had IQ52 Jim Laroy do for my build of 650 hp, I have $3500.00 in them with his work, the new parts and the new castings!
I bought a low hrs 470 short block at a hell of a good price and I still figure I'll have 10-11K in it, dyno'd and drop in ready.
Click to expand...


Nothing in my toy box but $8,500. I'll just stay away from spending 40% of that on heads.
 
IBSorgn said:
Maybe you should read my post again. I have no desire to "Play with the Big Boys" and can't see how you are reading that. I now have two builders that say they can build within my budget, maybe they are more reasonable with their labor and machining costs than others. Glad that I made this post as it is attracting some builders. One or two more and I should have enough comparisons to make a selection.
Click to expand...

I think many people would consider a 500+ inch motor as playing with the big boys. Technically speaking I do not know a lot about big blocks and big inch motors. I do know that in order for this motor to run to its full potential your more then likely going to spend more then 8500. I'm not saying it's impossible I'm just saying you could have a 500 inch motor that doesn't run that great for 8500 or you could have a smaller motor that is a monster for 8500.
 
Ryan Johnson at Shady Dell Speed Shop. Very Knowledgeable does all the porting in house and Knows his stuff. He has built two of the engines in my familys hot rod my 526 Wedge and My dads blown 540 wedge

The 526 Wedge Heres the specs


70 cast Iron Block (RB)
K1 technologies Crank and Rods (Decent price and very very nicely machined guy who owns K1 use to own Olivers Rods)
keith Black Pistons (10.1 to one Compression)
Multi layer head Gasket (Manufcatuer Unknown will look later and report back)
Indy 235cc EZ heads (Bought from Muscle motors, big mistake on that part don't buy anything from Muscle Motors)(Ryan Hand ported the Intake Runners and the Exhaust ports)
Indy Single Plane Intake(Also Ported By Mr. Johnson)
Crane Rockers arms (Decent Price for the Application)
Bullet Cam (Not totally aware of Specs will report Back Later)
SV-1 Carb 1 Barrel (really pricey total but worth 25 Ft LB of tourque over a 1150 4 Barrel)
Mopar Perfomance aluminum Water Pump Housing (Price was right)
Electric Water Pump (30HP for 300 Dollars)
Msd Ignition/ Dirtibutor (Looks good and Runs excellent)


738 Hp 711 Tourque

711 Torque at 5200 Rpm

738 Hp at 5900 RPM

93 Otcane

Ill report Back Later with the other specs
 
russhal said:
I hear a lot of bad talk with Indy cylinder head and others like them. I know they are arrogant. With me it's all about business. I've bought a lot of good parts cheap from them. Keep in mind It's just business. Don't rush. If you are not wanting to build your own engine, I've heard a lot of good things about MRL. Never done any business with them. They are a vendor on the site you can message about a build.
Click to expand...

I can tell you from first hand experience that Indy will cheat you, charge you for work they do not perform, then call you a liar when you call about it and complain. That guy Josh King who takes your orders is the worst custpomer service rep in the bidness IMO. My advise is to avoid Indy Cylinder Heads.

X2 on MRL. Your goals sound very doable but I don't know about the pricing goal. You may also want to try to get that power from 87 octane pump swill.
 
When I called and talked with them several months ago, they kinda had a "talk down to you" style. Just don't like to be treated that way so I will stay away from them. Happy to hear that it wasn't just me feeling that way
 
67 prostreet gt said:
Ryan Johnson at Shady Dell Speed Shop. Very Knowledgeable does all the porting in house and Knows his stuff. He has built two of the engines in my familys hot rod my 526 Wedge and My dads blown 540 wedge

The 526 Wedge Heres the specs


70 cast Iron Block (RB)
K1 technologies Crank and Rods (Decent price and very very nicely machined guy who owns K1 use to own Olivers Rods)
keith Black Pistons (10.1 to one Compression)
Multi layer head Gasket (Manufcatuer Unknown will look later and report back)
Indy 235cc EZ heads (Bought from Muscle motors, big mistake on that part don't buy anything from Muscle Motors)(Ryan Hand ported the Intake Runners and the Exhaust ports)
Indy Single Plane Intake(Also Ported By Mr. Johnson)
Crane Rockers arms (Decent Price for the Application)
Bullet Cam (Not totally aware of Specs will report Back Later)
SV-1 Carb 1 Barrel (really pricey total but worth 25 Ft LB of tourque over a 1150 4 Barrel)
Mopar Perfomance aluminum Water Pump Housing (Price was right)
Electric Water Pump (30HP for 300 Dollars)
Msd Ignition/ Dirtibutor (Looks good and Runs excellent)


738 Hp 711 Tourque

711 Torque at 5200 Rpm

738 Hp at 5900 RPM

93 Otcane

Ill report Back Later with the other specs
Click to expand...
Appreciate your recipe. Makes me more confident that what I'm asking for is easily do able. A little surprise that the stock block is holding up as I understand your right about the HP limit. No problems I assume?
 
I am very fortunate, as i am firends with my enginebuilder, and we sit and chat in depth about which engine i am building at the time and the goals i want. My last 426 wedge we just built was a nice piece. we picked a goal and a hp and tq rating and went from there.

Short block...

Can you achieve what you need with a factory style block? if not aftermarket.

Steel crank forged H bean or I beam rods, forged pistons.

The bottom end is the platform for the rest. After that, look at which cylinder head works with the rpm range hp range and cubic inch of the motor. Camshaft follows the same consideration. We went with a mild camshaft,small CC runner head and the result was a serious torque motor on pump gas that runs hard to 6000 rpm. Goal achieved.

Big cube motors are easier to get 600 hp 650 tq without a lot of effort and large cylinder heads. You can keep it simple and drivable with mild parts.
 
Let's level this out. What quality of components are you willing to accept. You know, carb, oil pan, valve covers, intake, rockers, timing chain. Cheap is cheap and it will last for awhile. Anything we build at 500 or more cubic inches will meet those power requirements accidently, even with iron heads.
 
IBSorgn said:
67 prostreet gt said:
Ryan Johnson at Shady Dell Speed Shop. Very Knowledgeable does all the porting in house and Knows his stuff. He has built two of the engines in my familys hot rod my 526 Wedge and My dads blown 540 wedge

The 526 Wedge Heres the specs


70 cast Iron Block (RB)
K1 technologies Crank and Rods (Decent price and very very nicely machined guy who owns K1 use to own Olivers Rods)
keith Black Pistons (10.1 to one Compression)
Multi layer head Gasket (Manufcatuer Unknown will look later and report back)
Indy 235cc EZ heads (Bought from Muscle motors, big mistake on that part don't buy anything from Muscle Motors)(Ryan Hand ported the Intake Runners and the Exhaust ports)
Indy Single Plane Intake(Also Ported By Mr. Johnson)
Crane Rockers arms (Decent Price for the Application)
Bullet Cam (Not totally aware of Specs will report Back Later)
SV-1 Carb 1 Barrel (really pricey total but worth 25 Ft LB of tourque over a 1150 4 Barrel)
Mopar Perfomance aluminum Water Pump Housing (Price was right)
Electric Water Pump (30HP for 300 Dollars)
Msd Ignition/ Dirtibutor (Looks good and Runs excellent)


738 Hp 711 Tourque

711 Torque at 5200 Rpm

738 Hp at 5900 RPM

93 Otcane

Ill report Back Later with the other specs
Click to expand...
Appreciate your recipe. Makes me more confident that what I'm asking for is easily do able. A little surprise that the stock block is holding up as I understand your right about the HP limit. No problems I assume?
Click to expand...

None so far and I haven't been all highway cruising it either the cam I forgot to mention is a solid roller and this thing will throw u into the seat and hold u there but yet be perfectly fine in driving around town call Ryan Johnson he can specify wat be best for your application and he may be able to give u the exact cam numbers you'll need

Posted via Topify using iPhone/iPad
 
I apologize if you took my comments as an attack. Maybe blunt honesty wasn't the right approach. What I read was you want a non factory engine package, everything brand new but the block casting, 600 pound feet at 3200, with a hydraulic cam, pump fuel, and completely dyno tuned. In my experience, that is running with the big boys as far as I'm concerned. As opposed to a "built 440" type build that can be done on the cheap and get an easy 450hp. I get it perfectly. I have personally built more than a few using different suppliers and I'm currently building one that is truly budget.
I'm still interested in seeing both track times and reciepts for these engines. I'd be very (pleasantly) surprised if someone got everything you want, as proven by track times and not dyno sheets, for the amount you're looking to spend.
 
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