63 Dart 904 with rear pump thrust washer question

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Hideogumperjr

Hideogumperjr

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Hi folks. Reassembling my tranny now but having issues with the 3 thrust washers with the 3 tangs.
I felt I was careful disassembling and laying out the output shaft but for some reason when I try to get it all back together I cant get the circlip on the output shaft with the three washers installed where I thought they went.
I have looked at this drawing:

[ame]http://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/mm5/graphics/Catalog-pdf/A904.pdf[/ame]

Which shows four of the washers and their 3 tangs labeled as part 238. One thing it doesn't show which confuses me is the lack of a ball bearing placed in the output shaft which locks the shaft to the rear pump impeller. So I have some confusion if this layout is correct.
Anyone run into a problem like this or can anyone offer any insights?
I can take pictures if anyone would like to see the washers and anything else.
Thanks for any help.
John
 
Does it make any difference if you push up on the output shaft, or are you doing this with it laying down?
 
I have the tranny resting straight up on the output shaft. Ive tried tapping it up to no avail.
Kicking myself for not taking pictures but taking off gloves after each step got too tedious. Big mistake on my part!

John
 
How much are you lacking to put the ring on?
Just a thought, sometimes thrust washers can move out of place if not glued in place with assy lube.
 
So I took pictures but cant find my cable to transfer them from camera to computer. ouch. I will post them when I find the cable.

I am using assembly grease to hold the washers in place.

I fiddled around today with the tranny and put the third tanged washer between the low reverse band drum and the rear annulus gear support even though there are no holes to anchor the thrust washer. But I noticed that between the driving shell and the rear planetary gear assy there was still lots of end play movement ~.25"so it sure seems that the thrust washer should fit in there somewhere.

From the diagrams I have in my service manual and the ones I see online it looks like the planet gears have a thrust washer with 3 tangs each, that accounts for two. If I place one of the tanged thrust washers behind the rear planetary gear (where there are places for the tangs to fit) it pushes out the whole assembly from the drum leaving some of the planetary gears sticking out. But by pushing on the whole assembly I am able to move it back and forth a considerable distance and it seems to slip into place but I am not sure at this time.

From the way I had the parts laid out when I disassembled it looked like there were two thrust washers together but I cant make two of them fit together because the tangs wont fit over the other washer so this doesn't seem to be it.

The only planetary gear assy that is disassembled is the rear one, the front comes off as a unit still inside the annulus since there is a circlip holding it together. I assume there is another thrust washer in that assy so it is not missing.

Seems like it should be so dang simple.

Kicking myself in the ash.
John
 
the rear planetary has a thrust washer behind it...and a thrust washer between the rear planetary and the sun shell or drive shell...the drive shell also has a steel thrust plate on each side of it that is held in by the sun gear....

as you said the front planetary has a thrust washer in it..and if you have not disassembled it...

Do you have access to a 727/904 ATSG manual....has good picture of the gear train..
 
70aarcuda said:
the rear planetary has a thrust washer behind it...and a thrust washer between the rear planetary and the sun shell or drive shell...the drive shell also has a steel thrust plate on each side of it that is held in by the sun gear....

as you said the front planetary has a thrust washer in it..and if you have not disassembled it...
Click to expand...

Thats correct, and also the reason I am having a hard time thinking of what else might be going on.

The drive shell is kinda sloppy compared to what you might think.
It's one of those hard things to explain like "hit it about this hard":D
 
Thanks Beast, always loved vague stuff!

70 Thanks for the info. I have a 63 factory service manual and a copy of another manual in pdf but the breakdown is not the same as the one you posted, THANKS for that Great Drawing!! It shows the three washers as I remember them coming apart. Part #238 is the animal and it sits in front of and in back of the planetaries as I expected. The problem I am facing is when I have them installed as shown, I do not have enough output shaft sticking out to put the circlip on, the groove is not fully exposed so the circlip wont seat. I need another 1/16" to fit the circlip, WTF?

I have taken the output shaft out and made sure that the ball bearing seats fully into the rear pump impeller, checked that the govenor is correct- the pin goes through it and has the circlip on both sides and it slides freely. At one point after placing the annulus on the shaft into the rear drum then the planetary, the output shaft and the planetary would slide back and forth about 1/4". This would let the planetary silde into and out of the annulus so the top of the planetary assy would stick out of the annulus and then slide back into it. Seemed like a lot of end play to me but I cant seem to figure out where it is all coming. I took it apart and reassembled and now the end play doesnt seem to be there but I have to admit I said a little prayer (you know the kind with several 4 letter words) and came inside to write this post, take my 3 dogs for a walk and play my guitar for a while.

I still cant find my dang USB cable so I cant post the pictures but when I find it (I imagine it is lost somewhere with my mind at this time!) I will post them and see if I can make a video so yall can see what the hay is happening.

Thanks for all the help and thanks to all the vets out there. Happy Memorial Day weekend to all, Remember Memorial Day is a day to remember our fallen veterans and share some good food as we remember them and enjoy the freedom for which they gave their lives.

John
USAF 67-72
 
i would not snap the ball bearing in tail shaft until after you install the snap ring in front of the planetaries...dont know if it makes a difference...but
 
Not sure I understand that. The ball bearing has to go into the rear pump before the output shaft goes far enough to install the snap ring.
Or am I misunderstanding you?
Thanks for the help.
 
ok...i have never dealt with a 904 with a rear pump.....good luck...
 
I seem to remember something I always thought was strange about the rear planetary gear.
I think some had a thrust washer behind them and some didn't. (or something like that)
That might be a clue, so let's try looking into that more.
 
Only weirdness with that TB is that I removed the three washers from there. So dang weird...
I plan on filming assembly tomorrow and will post in this thread so you have a clear idea of what I am running into and maybe yall can see better.
Thanks for all the help.
 
Hi folks, not too much opportunity to BBQ here in Seattle since its raining raining raining.

I took some time to make a video of my situation and have posted it on my server at this link: [ame="http://www.myfigtree.com/trannyoutputshaft/P5270002.AVI"]www.myfigtree.com/trannyoutputshaft/P5270002.AVI[/ame]

If you have any problems let me know and Ill fix it. I hope that someone can see something I am doing wrong here cause I am ready to zip this up! I am even contemplating buying another one to tear apart but sounds almost obsessive. BTW I suffer from CDO which is like OCD but the letters are in the right order.

Thanks all!
 
Hi all.
　
[ame="http://www.myfigtree.com/trannyoutputshaft/endplay.avi"]http://www.myfigtree.com/trannyoutputshaft/endplay.avi[/ame]
　
I reassembled the shaft without the washer on the backside of the rear planetary gear assy and can get the circlip in place and it looks right. I did notice that the one I did not put in has a weird wear pattern with only the outer half of the washer showing wear as the other two show even wear all across their surface. I have added the following video showing the wear pattern and also the end play that I notice when I move the shaft back and forth without that one washer.
Please let me know what you think I am mucking up on.
Thanks
John
 
I tried but the whole viglink crap took over on your link and I can't download it.
Just trying to view it directly does not load it either.
 
Hideogumperjr said:
Hi all.
　
http://www.myfigtree.com/trannyoutputshaft/endplay.avi
　
I reassembled the shaft without the washer on the backside of the rear planetary gear assy and can get the circlip in place and it looks right. I did notice that the one I did not put in has a weird wear pattern with only the outer half of the washer showing wear as the other two show even wear all across their surface. I have added the following video showing the wear pattern and also the end play that I notice when I move the shaft back and forth without that one washer.
Please let me know what you think I am mucking up on.
Thanks
John
Click to expand...

If I remember right the washer under the planetary unit does wear like that.
I think it has to do with the planet carrier being a hair wider where the shafts for the gears go through it.
I wouldn't worry about that one.

Is there a noticable difference in the thickness of the washers?
I know you said they were the same part number but anything can happen.
Also, for the most part those washers can and do last a long time.
You might consider putting the old ones back in and see what it looks like.
The washers with the three tabs on them are not really a mandatory replacement part, but more important for setting the play between the parts and that is not so critical in these tranmissions.
We used to reuse them if they were not torn up or had grooves in them.
Just so you know, it is even fine for them to be different colors in spots.
Drum clutches clearances and band adjustments are WAY more important.

Just a thought.
 
Thanks TB. I am reusing the same washers and I checked them with my micrometer and all are the same thickness.
Next time I rebuild one I will do it differently. Oh wait, don't think I will ever need to do another one!
Cheers!
 
I sent this to tracy to see if he knows why the planet and ring gear dont seat all the way.

I know the answer is right there in front of me, but I'll be darned if I am coming up with it.

The only thing I can come up with is that the washer between the planetary set and ring gear does not go in there.
I think it had something to do with the sun gear holding the ring gear back away from the plantary set.
That's what I meant when I said that I remembered something was odd about the washer placements, but I didn't remember what it was.
I am however, pretty much positive that the front planetary does not take a washer between it and the sun gear shell (that steel washer in the back of the shell acts as a washer on the back of the front planet set.

Gettin old SUCKS.
That and not having been in one for a rebuild in 25 years doesn't help.
 
Thanks for the empathy!

I find it odd to see diagrams that seem to show the washers behind and in front of the rear planetary then another one that seems to show that there is no washer.

I am thinking that maybe the third washer goes somewhere else in the output shaft train and that takes up the seemingly massive end play. Dang hated puzzles at points in my life but when one seems to be so dang simple and I cant see if, heck, Im getting old!

Thanks for the help.
 
I didn't comment earlier because right away I noticed your dealing with a early model with a rear pump which I have never been into before but Greg PM'd me asking if I might know something so I'll add what little that is. I noticed right off the link you have to Macko's site is for a newer trans. without a rear pump so that's probably why your not seeing the bearing you mentioned that locks in the rear pump. 904's had a few variations in the gear train where they used or didn't use a thrust washer and that's a part that I'm not real familiar with cause I'm mainly a 727 guy but I watched the video and see what your saying about how the rear planetary doesn't sit down in the annulus properly with the thrust washer under it. You mentioned a thrust washer with a wear pattern on one side but not the other and seemed unsure where it went. Could it go there? That's what is used in that area on a 727. If that thrust washer is splined it'll lock to the output shaft along with the rear annulus so the side against the annulus won't see any wear. I also noticed you mentioned putting a 3 tab thrust washer in somewhere where there were no anchor holes, that doesn't sound right. I have never seen that done in any trans. I've done. Generally if it's a place where there are no anchor holes and a thrust washer goes there you use a flat steel thrust washer.

I think what I'd do if I were going in blind is to assemble everything without the last thrust washer so the rear planetary sets down in the annulus good and put the circlip on and measure the end play and feel how it rotates (rough or smooth). I don't have any books that tell me the end play on the older trans. with the rear pump but the newer ones say .005-.048" and I'd bet that's the same. Personally I like to see less them in the .010-.015" range so the gear train isn't slapping back and forth so much beating up the thrust washers but anything in the range the manual says works. And of course if it doesn't rotate smooth it's not right.

Assemble it and measure the end play with a feeler gauge and feel how it rotates and post what it is.
 
I had one other thought on this.
Take the output shaft out and measure how deep into the governor support the oil holes are and then mark that on the outside of the governor support with a marker.
Then line the governor inner assy with the sealing rings on it next to the governor support and see how deep it is supposed to ride inside the support.

The thinking on this is to try and determine where the inner part with the rings on it normally rides.
You might be able to tell by the marks the sealing rings left inside there also.
This might tell you just how much end play the output shaft might have with the rest off the clutches and drums in it.
The stuff forward of the front planetary set might hold all the rear assy back against the rear planetary when it is all together. (and this may prove that theory)

Does this make any sense?, or do I need to try and find a better way to explain what I am thinking? :)

I'm sorry but other than this I think we are out of suggestions, but you might get ahold of this guy and see if he has a parts breakdown or manual on it.
http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/welcome.html

His name is Gary Hamel and his email address is [email protected]

Again, I wish we could have had more definite information for you.
Give a yell if I can help you with anything else in there and I will give it a go.
 
Ill re-read these posts tomorrow a few times and see if I can make sense of it and provide pictures and or video of what I find.
Guys, I surely do appreciate your attention!
Cheers.
John
 
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