'67 Dart - No stop lights, turn signals on but don't flash

Electrical and Ignition

  1. MungoMopar

    MungoMopar Active Member

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    Hi,
    I'm not good on electrical fault finding, can you lend me some help please?
    My turn signals stopped flashing, left and right lamps come on when selected but are on solid. I noticed on the dash D-C ammeter that the needle dips slightly for the turn signal current, left or right, but not when the brake pedal pressed; checked and no stop lights.
    The bulbs are all incandescent and I have tried a spare flasher unit, no change.
    I have added ground wires to each rear bulb socket, as read here that ground may be cause of non-flashing but no change.
    Since I've had the Dart, the ammeter has always showed a high charge level, not pegged but closer to the RH side than to the centre; not sure if that could be a contributor.

    I'm not clear on how the turn/stop circuit works, it's a mystery to me.

    Is there a simplified turn/stop circuit diagram or explanation available on FABO?

    Does this 'no stop, non-flashing turn signal' point towards a particular kind of fault?
     
  2. Mike69cuda

    Mike69cuda 66 is the new 17 FABO Gold Member

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    Have you checked fuses? There are two power feeds one for front turn signals and one for the rear.

    Are you sure you changed the right flasher, there are two. One is the emergency flasher.

    Do front and rear bulbs light up when you turn on the turn signal?

    Do your emergency flashers work?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
  3. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    The turn signals will stay on when one of the bulbs is out. Its not the only cause but one cause.
    The turn signal flasher unit is a bimetal switch. When there is enough current through it, the bimetal gets hot and bends. This opens the connection and the lights go off.

    The ammeter indicates current flowing into or out of the battery. In other words Battery Charging or Discharging.
    The brake lights are out, so there is no current flowing out of the battery.

    Turn signals should only work with Key in Run.
    Brake lights should work all the time.
    Parking lights (front) work with the headlight switch in Park only.
    Tail Parking Lights stay are on with headlight switch in Park and Headlights on.

    Double check this, but I beleive your car has the 1034 double filament bulb for turn, parking, brake.
    They ground through the side of the socket.
    Since the bulbs light up for turn signal, the ground connection is working.

    After checking all the bulbs and the fuse we can check wiring.
    I agree with Mike. Turning on the hazzard switch is a good check. Hazzard uses a different flasher and wiring route, but the same filaments in the bulbs.

    How Turn Signals Work
    67 Barracuda Turn Signal Dielemma
     
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    • Mattax

      Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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      If the battery is always charging when the engine is running, then check the voltage when its doing that. Its possible the voltage regulation is too high, that will shorten battery and bulb life.
      It should moderately charge immediately after starting. Then drift to the middle over the next 5 minutes, give or take.
       
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      • Mattax

        Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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        I beleive the Dart wiring almost the same as my '67 Barracuda.
        There is one fuse for the brake & hazzard, dome, and parking/tail lights.
        There is no fuse for the turn signal.

        upload_2020-7-12_7-54-8-png.png

        A further explanation of the ammeter and current here
        Pulsating Alternator Gauge
         
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        • MungoMopar

          MungoMopar Active Member

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          Mike69cuda thank you
          I haven't checked fuses, I'll get home later and do that.
          All four bulbs light-up, left turn lights frt & rear, right turn lights frt & rear.
          I read here on FABO that the turn flasher is near the ashtray and the hazard flash is near the parking brake. I can't find a flasher unit near the ashtray and the flasher I swapped out is near the parking brake. Does a '67 Dart always have a 4-way hazard/emergency flasher?
          If I remove the flasher unit that I have found, neither turn signal works, does that identify it as the turn flasher?
          Mattax thank you
          I will look further for the hazard flasher, no sign of a second flasher unit yet.
          Where is the hazard switch? On LH side of instrument cluster, beside the headlight switch is a switch that says Flasher, but it does nothing. I should take a look behind that switch to check power?
          Thank you for the link.
          I have been too lazy, sorry, to check out the high charging; this turn signal issue will make me dive in to the electrical system. If it's functioning I don't like to touch but a high charge reading, I know really, should be investigated.
          I will check the charging voltage. I have read about all of the current passing thru the bulkhead connector and thru the ammeter, and how this should be kept an eye on. I've previously had the bulkhead connector apart and sprayed contact cleaner in there (a year ago, not just before this turn or charge issue).


           
        • Krooser

          Krooser Reform School Graduate

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          An 1157 bulb is the HD version of a 1034 and may be easier to find.
           
        • RedFish

          RedFish Well-Known Member

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        • Mike69cuda

          Mike69cuda 66 is the new 17 FABO Gold Member

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          If you remove the flasher and the turn signals quit lighting up, then you have the right one. Try touching the flasher wires together with a turn signal on and the ignition on & see if the lights light, just for a double check.

          You could have a second bad flasher you are substituting. People say double faults are rare, but seems like they happen to me with some frequency. Just bad luck I guess.
           
        • MungoMopar

          MungoMopar Active Member

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          Mattax thank you for diagram and link.
          Krooser I'm not too sure of the bulb number but noted for later, thank you.
          RedFish Thank you for ashtray receiver example, I'll check around that territory further, I'm pretty sure that there isn't a flasher there. A lot can happen to a car in 53 years....
          Mike69cuda I'll do the wire touching check, sounds like this is the turn flasher then but will look closer.
          To check the flasher operation on the bench, I could wire two bulbs in parallel and flasher in series to those, and put across a 12V battery?

          The flasher functions as an interrupter switch within the circuit, bulbs should flash?
           
        • Mike69cuda

          Mike69cuda 66 is the new 17 FABO Gold Member

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          Yep, you can bench check, just make sure you use the bright section of the bulbs (the turn / stop filament). Pretty hard to do without bulb sockets.
           
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          • Mattax

            Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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            1157 is longer rate life for one of the filaments but pulls more current. You can use them but it slightly changes the flash rate and slightly increases the load on the system. 1034 and 1034A are the correct bulbs if you can find them.

            I would check the dome light and hazzard operations first.
            Then check the fuse if those are not working.
            Then check all 6 bulbs for hazzard and turn operation again.
            The turn signal indicators in the instrument panel are a part of the load. Its possible if those are out they will not flash.\
            edit. Brake lights: Check Bulbs, then switch that touches brake pedal.

            Flashers units. On a LHD car

            Flasher for Hazzard 4 ways on left side of steering column bracket.
            upload_2020-10-2_12-55-57-png.png

            upload_2021-4-24_11-0-35.png


            Flasher for Turn signals with its wiring on bench.
            upload_2020-10-2_13-1-12-png.png

            Another view of bracket location for the turn flasher. RHD is in the same location.
            upload_2021-4-24_11-34-20.png
             
            Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
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            • Dana67Dart

              Dana67Dart The parts you don't add don't cause you no trouble FABO Gold Member

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              Have you done any work to the front grill area?

              There is a turn signal ground up there that when disconnected will make the system work as you describe.

              check of bulbs...

              Key in off position
              with headlights on do the tail lights in the rear come on? Both the same intensity?
              With headlights on, apply the brake, do both rear brake lights light up? Are they brighter than the tail lights? are they both the same intensity?
              with headlights on, turn on hazard lights. Do the tail lights brighten and dim?
              With the headlights off, turn on hazard lights. Do the tail lights brighten and go off?

              Key in on position
              With headlights on, turn turn signal switch to one side. Does the tail light on that side brighten? (since they are not flashing I am assuming that they will brighten but not dim) do the same for the other side.

              If everything is a yes then we have established that the rear light cir and bulbs are in good working order.


              For the front... ( assuming you do not have a GT with fender top indicators)

              Key in off position
              with headlight switch in the parking lights (first position) do the two forward facing parking lights in the grill light up?
              with the headlight switch in the lights on position (all the way out) do the two forward facing parking lights in the grill turn off? (67 is different than other years in this regard) Are the headlights on?
              with headlights on, turn the hazard lights on, do the two forward facing parking lights in the grill brighten then go out?
              With the headlights off, turn the hazard lights on, do the two forward facing parking lights in the grill brighten then go out?

              Key in on position
              With headlights on, turn turn signal switch to one side. Does the the forward facing parking light on that side in the grill light up? (since they are not flashing I am assuming that they will brighten but not go off) do the same for the other side.

              If everything is a yes then we have established that the front light cir and bulbs are in good working order.

              That leaves the flasher unit, or the turn signal switch

              PXL_20201004_155319883.jpg PXL_20201004_155448251.jpg PXL_20201004_155525606.jpg
               
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              • MungoMopar

                MungoMopar Active Member

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                Mattax I haven't found second flasher yet. Turn bulbs in instrument panel are ok. Thank you for the pics.
                Dana67Dart Thank you, I haven't had a chance to go thru the whole sequence that you had provided, but I will. I have had the grill apart, last year though; each front turn signal/parking lamp has a ground wire in place.

                I have done some of the earlier checks:
                Battery voltage, not running 12.51V
                Battery voltage, engine running, initially 13.24V, rising over a minute and stabilizing at 13.42V

                The Dome/Tail light fuse was blown.....
                The blown fuse was a 15A when it should be a 20A; installed a new 20A fuse. I was, of course, hoping for this fuse to allow the flashers to work but no such luck.
                i took a video to show the D-C ammeter reaction to the flasher and stop light switching. I'm glad I have it on video because after going thru LH & RH turn signal (on but not flashing), with and without stop lights, I then tried the headlights on and then the ammeter pegged over to max discharge and BANG, the 20A fuse blew. Please see the video at this link; bear with it right to the end for the more interesting part.

                I have quite a short somewhere!!!
                 
              • Dana67Dart

                Dana67Dart The parts you don't add don't cause you no trouble FABO Gold Member

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                I would say ....
                Ya there is a dead short in one of the cir that comes out of the headlights switch somewhere.



                Did the blinkers ever work correctly?

                You need one of these.

                16192973441837128632611710197426.jpg
                 
                Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
              • Mattax

                Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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                Seems like you haven't found the hazzard switch yet either. We see a LHD car there, so the hazzard switch should be on the left side of the dash panel.

                Battery Voltage with nothing turned on. Slightly low.
                Battery voltage with engine running at slow idle. Low. This may explain the battery not being fully charge when shut off.
                Did you notice the ammeter reading when you measured the voltage?

                Follow the link here. Further down in the thread there is also a video showing the ammeter movement with turn signals when drawing from the battery, compared to when the engine is idling.

                We see in your video (around 1:11) an aftermarket gage and wiring in the middle of the dash. That's normally the radio location. What's there?

                For visually spotting the flasher on ash reciever housing, try a mirror and flashlight, err sorry, torch.

                Blowing the fuse when turning on the headlights.
                When the ammeter pegged, was the switch one position out, or two?
                 
                Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
              • Mattax

                Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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                As Dana said, seems like a dead short.

                Factory '67 North American Dart circuits are like this:
                upload_2021-4-24_17-51-10.png

                Since the brake lights did not cause the fuse to fail, the fault is probably after the headlight switch.
                Assuming the dome light came on when the door was open, then the fault is in the switch or in the parking or tail light wiring.
                Since a '67 Dart has seperate park and tail light circuits, you can narrow down which one it is by which position the headlight switch was in.
                One click out feeds all both park and tail lights from B2.
                upload_2021-4-24_18-2-48.png

                Switch pulled all the way out feeds power from B2 to the tail lights only. Front parking lights are off.
                Headlights are fed from B1.
                upload_2021-4-24_18-9-43.png

                Meh. I don't think that's any better than the one in the service manual.
                 
              • Mattax

                Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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                There's a chance someone thought the black insulation always indicated ground (earth) wire. Not so!
                 
              • Dana67Dart

                Dana67Dart The parts you don't add don't cause you no trouble FABO Gold Member

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                Not any better, but the colors are so much easier to trace out.
                 
              • Dana67Dart

                Dana67Dart The parts you don't add don't cause you no trouble FABO Gold Member

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                I had forgotten about that video, I hate hearing myself talk, I sound like a high talker.
                 
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                • MungoMopar

                  MungoMopar Active Member

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                  Dana67Dart I have just ordered diagram from Classic Wiring, thank you looks easier to follow than thin black lines on 5 different pages in a manual.
                  The blinkers did work ok until the last journey; I can't think of anything unusual happening, no electrical work done. Sounds like this is going to be fun to sort out!
                  Mattax I'll look behind the dash, behind the flasher switch and try to trace to the flasher module; with my torch 8-)
                  The alternator is a one-wire, substituted along the way thru time before getting to me. The classic wiring chart may help me discover how that conversion was done. Ok to stick with the one-wire alt?
                  The ammeter will running (13.42V) was half way between vertical and max charging. This is where it always tends to, doesn't gradually come back to near neutral charge (even with minimal load on).
                  This is suggesting a significant constant load, a short?
                  Yep, in the stock radio location the PO has fitted aftermarket water temp and oil pressure gauges.
                  When the fuse blow, I had pulled the light switch on full, two clicks.
                   
                • Dana67Dart

                  Dana67Dart The parts you don't add don't cause you no trouble FABO Gold Member

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                  I would get a hand full of 10 amp fuses and put them in place of the 20 amp that blew. Then pull the switch to 1st position, and see what happens. It might blow just being under sized, but probably not for a few seconds.

                  The other option is remove EVERY light bulb and with an ohm meter look for short to ground on the wires, disconnect the battery to do this
                   
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                  • Mattax

                    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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                    It's safe. That thread has my video.
                    I'm not sure where yours is. If you want I can find it for you. :poke:
                    hide-gif.gif laugh2-gif.gif
                     
                  • Mattax

                    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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                    laugh2-gif-gif.gif Correct. Those diagrams aren't generally meant to be followed. They cover everything. When a problem needed a diagram the tech was expected to copy or trace the circuit of interest. That's described here for example
                    Electrical Wiring (Session 247) from the Master Technician's Service Conference
                    Guess what, you're going to have to trace the main circuits and then see what they did.
                    I'll give you the factory layout to save you some of that trouble. You can check it to be sure the details are correct.
                    upload_2021-4-24_19-37-37.png

                    Well at the moment it doesn't seem to be doing a great job.
                    One problem with one wire systems is the regulator only knows what the alternator output voltage is.
                    Next time when its running measure alternator's output voltage to earth. Then compare that to the battery voltage to earth. They should be the same, but if there is resistance to flow the voltage will drop as the current flows through the resistance.


                    Yes the first. It could be a cross wire short or additional circuit wired to the battery adding an additional load.
                    Not a ground short or the fusible link would have burned up.
                    I think its indicating the battery is low on charge and the alternator is providing 20 amps at 13.5 Volts.
                    Put the battery on a charger and/or have the battery load tested.

                    Aftermarket gages usually are connected to a '12 Volt' source. Question is what was tapped into?
                    Factory location for the optional tach was an additional fuse in the fusebox. If all the fusebox slots are filled, maybe that's what they did. My guess is they were more creative, as most of us were at one time. :rolleyes:
                    because all these problems started recently, lets assume the wiring concept was working. Execution may be a different story.

                    Two clicks on means the short is most likely in the tail light circuit.
                     
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                    • Dana67Dart

                      Dana67Dart The parts you don't add don't cause you no trouble FABO Gold Member

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                      Post 14.
                       
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