'89 roller-cam LA 360 w/Magnum heads - new roller lifters not pumping up

[70aarcuda]

On a small block:
Turn the motor to 90* before top dead center coming up on #1 compression. The pass. side rockers should get oil.
Turn the motor to 20* after top dead center just past #6 compression. The drivers side rockers should get oil.

LA engines do not oil thru the pushrod....LA engines oil thru the cylinder head...

 

[cudak888]

Look at the engine ID pad (front of block, left bank) and see if a Diamond shape <> is stamped in. If so, one or more lifter bores were oversized at the factory .008 Also any oversized lifter bore would be stamped with the diamond.

"Engine ID pad" - are you referring to a B/RB engine here?

I haven't seen a smooth ID pad on the LA's, only the engine casting number on the left side:

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

On a small block:
Turn the motor to 90* before top dead center coming up on #1 compression. The pass. side rockers should get oil.
Turn the motor to 20* after top dead center just past #6 compression. The drivers side rockers should get oil.

LA engines do not oil thru the pushrod....LA engines oil thru the cylinder head...

That's to index the camshaft for rocker shaft oiling. This is a roller cam LA 360 that has Magnum heads and pushrods on it - thus, Magnum rockers and pushrod oiling. No more rocker shaft.

It's virtually identical to a base Magnum 5.9 crate motor now, even though it was born an LA 360.

-Kurt

 

[70aarcuda]

as a note..the 89-91 hydraulic lifter are not designed to oill thru the pushrods..the newer magnum roller are ...

I know most of what you can buy now are the magnum lifters that do oil thru pushrod...

 

[mderoy340]

"Engine ID pad" - are you referring to a B/RB engine here?

I haven't seen a smooth ID pad on the LA's, only the engine casting number on the left side:

-Kurt

Look at the Front of block, Driver's side, just below where the head and block meet.

Look at pic 7&8 of KrazyCuda Sticky
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=285021

 

[cudak888]

as a note..the 89-91 hydraulic lifter are not designed to oill thru the pushrods..the newer magnum roller are ...

I know most of what you can buy now are the magnum lifters that do oil thru pushrod...

This is what was in the engine when I got it. Pushrods were shorter than Magnums for the LA heads, of course:

While I don't deny that at least 8 lifters had been swapped out on this engine when I got it (or Mopar installed different batches on each side - wouldn't rule it our), I highly doubt that all 16 pushrods had been changed to oil-throughs. That, and prior to this year, that engine lived its life with it's factory TBI injection system inside a B350 high-top camper conversion. Probably the last vehicle on earth that would get modded, unless Roadkill had bought it.

That said, there's no reason the Magnum lifters shouldn't work - and I've already proven that oil does effectively get to the lifters.

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

Look at the Front of block, Driver's side, just below where the head and block meet.

I'm a dum-dum. There it is:

That's an old picture, so no paint on it there. No diamond marks that I can see.

-Kurt

 

[Marcohotrod]

I hear u Kurt, roller lifters with oil holes for THRU PUSHROD OILING TO MAGNUM HEADS. No need to rotate crank or cam whatsoever. passenger side lifter galley gets tons of oil at all times, and the drivers side gets a good amount of oil full time by going down to the #1 main bearing in a passage at the front of the block then up to the driver side galley. If there was a problem up front-such as blockage in the passages feeding the driver side, but U do not have this cuz when U put the "good" lifters in the driver side the flow plenty. I would put the 8 hi flow lifters on the driver side just for the heck of it, and preheat the oil, and spin the pump for more time while pumping the plungers of the 2 weak lifters with pushrods

 

[thesiren74]

Any differance between 89'lifters and magnum's?

 

[cudak888]

I hear u Kurt, roller lifters with oil holes for THRU PUSHROD OILING TO MAGNUM HEADS. No need to rotate crank or cam whatsoever. passenger side lifter galley gets tons of oil at all times, and the drivers side gets a good amount of oil full time by going down to the #1 main bearing in a passage at the front of the block then up to the driver side galley. If there was a problem up front-such as blockage in the passages feeding the driver side, but U do not have this cuz when U put the "good" lifters in the driver side the flow plenty. I would put the 8 hi flow lifters on the driver side just for the heck of it, and preheat the oil, and spin the pump for more time while pumping the plungers of the 2 weak lifters with pushrods

Do you think the two weak lifters will just stay weak? That's the whole reason I had to tear everything apart in the first place.

Seems as if I could move both of them to Cylinder 8 where flow is (theoretically) greatest, but if they're going to be weak and chatter forever, then I see no point in using them (honestly, if it wasn't for the cost, a nice solid-lifter valvetrain would certainly be the easy way out of this - and I'd rather adjust my valves every 3 months than pull the intake ever again).

Any differance between 89'lifters and magnum's?

All parts stores cross reference the same lifter for both engines.

Now, the lifters from the engine had their oil hole pointing at a 90 degree angle to the dogbone, while almost all Magnum lifters point straight up (or down, depending how you look at it).

The orientation of 90 degrees vs. straight up seems to be a non-issue, as oil can still pool around the lifter recess and work its way into the hole regardless of position, and I can get the same exact results if I prime either type of lifter while spinning it 90 degrees to replicate the other (with the dogbone removed, not that you'd ever run them like that!). Should be a video earlier in the thread where I demonstrate just that.

I assume the bleed hole change was done to prevent excessive lifter leak down and clattery starts - can't really see any other advantage to the hole's location change.

-Kurt

 

[thesiren74]

Is there any type of oil restrictor in the body?

 

[cudak888]

Is there any type of oil restrictor in the body?

Of the lifters? Doesn't look it. Can pull one tomorrow and see.

Might also tear into one of those free-flowing lifters that came from the engine as well.

-Kurt

 

[draginmopars]

I'm a dum-dum. There it is:

That's an old picture, so no paint on it there. No diamond marks that I can see.

-Kurt

Is there a plug behind the chain tension plate,
for the driver's side lifter galley

 

[cudak888]

Is there a plug behind the chain tension plate,
for the driver's side lifter galley

Yes, both plugs are there.

Left plug has a small hole (bit smaller than the lifter itself) drilled in it from factory so that it oils the timing chain, discussed in detail here: http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=323094. Hole is not enough to cause a major loss in pressure.

The bigger hole that you see in the new cam thrust plate replicates the same hole that the factory one had:

Just another one of Mopar's countless experiments trying to improve (or cost cut) their timing chain oiling system. Does roughly the same thing as the drilled bolt without having to stock a drilled bolt at the factory.

-Kurt

 

[Marcohotrod]

the lifters should pump up with a drill at 1100 rpm - that is equal to the engine running at 2200 rpm, and they are supposed to stay pumped up - unless they are fighting some killer stiff valve springs. I think heating the oil to make it thinner and pumping the plunger with a pushrod while spinning the pump will help get the weak lifters pumped up, and then they should stay up, if they don't replace them. I know the 8 brand new lifters did not flow much, but did they pump up and stay up? when assembled, is the lifter preload in the ballpark?

 

[cudak888]

the lifters should pump up with a drill at 1100 rpm - that is equal to the engine running at 2200 rpm, and they are supposed to stay pumped up - unless they are fighting some killer stiff valve springs. I think heating the oil to make it thinner and pumping the plunger with a pushrod while spinning the pump will help get the weak lifters pumped up, and then they should stay up, if they don't replace them. I know the 8 brand new lifters did not flow much, but did they pump up and stay up? when assembled, is the lifter preload in the ballpark?

I tried priming it by spinning the drill at the same time I pumped the plunger by pushing on the loose rocker arm (thus pressing the pushrod down).

Did this for 15 seconds until the drill started to get warm. Still loose.

I'll look at this lifter tomorrow and see what's up with it.

-Kurt

 

[thesiren74]

http://www.mopar1.us/sort.html. take a look at the lifter pic.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Since it's always the same bunch that are flowing lots, and always the same bunch that are dribbling., and the new ones were dribbling, and now Sireland67s are dribblers as well , I would have to agree with you that the squirters might be the bad ones. So that means one more test; swapping out the squirters, and swapping in the dribblers, and then in go all the pushrods, and see what comes out the top.
If you still get some rocker arms that seem loose, keep in mind that many of the lifters will be sitting on the base circle, and that if there is less than zero preload on those, then a wobble would just be reflecting that. But again, I'm sure you know that and are keeping an eye out for such an occurance.But per your last post, you've got a good handle on this.

Quote from previous post;
http://www.mopar1.us/sort.html. take a look at the lifter pic.

 

[cudak888]

http://www.mopar1.us/sort.html. take a look at the lifter pic.

I'm still trying to make sense of this.

The description says the Magnum lifter pushrod socket has a hole in the side of the socket, and the roller LA lifter has a hole in the center of the socket.

The photo shows a pushrod socket that appears solid on the left (is the "hole in the side of the socket" that tiny bit of white on top?) and a pushrod socket with a definite hole in the center on the right.

I understand the hole in the center of the socket, and though I have a concept of what the metered socket is supposed to look like from the description. However, I'm being thrown off by that lousy photo, which doesn't correlate with the description (unless that white fleck is the hole).

That leads me to two other things:

1. I'm baffled why the Magnum lifters - which are supposed to oil through the pushrods - would not have a hole directly in the center of the socket. I understand the concept of metering, but not by offsetting the hole where the oil won't be able to get through the pushrod.
2. Every single one of the lifters I've chased through in this journey has had a hole directly in the center of the socket. Both of the ones from the engine, the ones from Sireland67, and the brand new ones from two different brands. Are these the "metered" lifters, or is everyone making them in the roller LA style?

Either that, or this socket is INSIDE the pushrod, and I'm just (incorrectly) assuming the "pushrod socket" is the cupped piece that the pushrod fits into.

Since it's always the same bunch that are flowing lots, and always the same bunch that are dribbling., and the new ones were dribbling, and now Sireland67s are dribblers as well , I would have to agree with you that the squirters might be the bad ones. So that means one more test; swapping out the squirters, and swapping in the dribblers, and then in go all the pushrods, and see what comes out the top.
If you still get some rocker arms that seem loose, keep in mind that many of the lifters will be sitting on the base circle, and that if there is less than zero preload on those, then a wobble would just be reflecting that. But again, I'm sure you know that and are keeping an eye out for such an occurance.But per your last post, you've got a good handle on this.

The difference between the earlier roller lifters and the Mag lifters isn't making this any easier to solve, but it does seem possible that the LA lifters were supposed to squirt up a storm, while the Mag lifters are supposed to dribble.

Either way, I'm just surprised that I've yet to find a single person who has primed a Magnum 5.2 or 5.9 and can definitively say what the oil coming out at the rockers should look like when the oil pump is at ~1,000 rpm. At least I'd know what I'm looking for if I had an answer for this.

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

A few photos - and I think I now know what I'm looking at with the Magnum lifter photos.

On top is the super-squirter lifter. On the bottom is one of the other 8 lifters from the passenger's side of the engine (I have not taken one of Sireland67's lifters back out of the engine just yet, so nothing about those yet).

Both seem to be made of the same bits:

The main difference seems to be in the inner body. It's impossible to see here, but the bottom lifter uses a check ball, while the upper has some sort of plug on a spring (which I can't seem to move):

Also, the reverse side of the plunger now looks seems to resemble what Mopar1us was showing in the photo. Both resemble the unmetered version (though the one on top sure doesn't act like it).

-Kurt

 

[69MOPE]

I say, put 16 dribblers in it and try it. Get the high flow squirter's out of there. If they flow that much oil, the lifters will never pump up.

 

[cudak888]

OK! Lots of questions answered, thanks to Sireland67's lifters:

From top to bottom:

1. A passenger's side lifter from the LA 360 - one of the "squirters"
2. A random driver's side lifter from the LA 360; could have dribbled or not pumped up; no idea.
3. Sireland67 lifter - this one wasn't pumping up in the cylinder #2 intake bore
4. Sireland67 lifter - this one was dribbling, but pumped up correctly, and was in the cylinder #2 exhaust bore. The pushrod socket is shown face-out here (unlike #1 through #3, which are inverted to show the inside).

First - it didn't take long to figure out why lifter #3 wouldn't pump up. When I pulled it from the engine, it started leaking from the oil input hole, so I knew the check valve was stuck open.

When I opened it up, I found the plunger jammed at the bottom of the lifter. No amount of yanking with extraction tools made it budge - which included trying to extract the plunger while pressing the check ball down with a paper clip, and beating the living hell out of it on a piece of wood. The plunger is in there forever.

So, no plunger to see there.

The second of Sireland67's lifter came apart with no issue, which brings us to the almighty LA-vs-Magnum pushrod socket difference. LA straight-through oiling style at top, Magnum side-oiler at bottom:

So THAT's what the Mopar1 site was referring to all this time. I'll be damned if I was expected to understand this from a little grainy picture that didn't even show the hole (description or not). This also explains the slow speed at which these pump up with oil - no doubt, that's how they're supposed to work.

So...

No question about it, both batches of 8 lifters in my engine, working or not, are LA-roller style, not Magnum. The 90-degree oil inlet may or may not be associated with the LA style as well (seeing as it is reflected on two different styles of obviously LA-roller lifters).

At any rate, I'm very sure of the following findings:

• All of the lifters from my engine need to be swapped to Magnum style.
• Since Sireland67's lifters are the only Magnum lifters in this batch, I can only infer that properly-operating Magnum lifters are supposed to dribble - not shoot - oil. The 90-degree oiling port makes that quite obvious.
• That 90 degree oiling hole on the pushrod socket practically guarantees that all Magnum lifters not yet pumped up require at least 30-45 seconds of high-pressure priming in the engine block, with a priming shaft spinning the oil pump at high RPM, and not by cranking the engine. If you don't do this, your engine will have a nice clattery sound for much longer than you will ever feel comfortable with, as the oil fights the built-up air pressure of that 90 degree oiling outlet (while being pumped up through the engine at half the RPM that your average drill will do it at).
• All the parts store lifters I previously installed hadn't been oiled via priming shaft. Cranking the engine was not enough to get the new lifters pumped up, even though the rest of the engine had sufficient oil. Lesson learned: USE THE DAMN PRIMING SHAFT.

Just because I don't want to do any of this again, I'm going to order myself 16 nice, new, quality lifters for this engine and be done with it.

If they flow that much oil, the lifters will never pump up.

Not necessarily - especially as they were the 8 that were not giving obvious trouble. Even with that much oil flowing through them, the check valve/ball prevents them from bleeding down once full.

-Kurt

 

[thesiren74]

Good luck!

 

[replicaracer43]

How big is the hole you drilled in the plug behind the tensioner plate? I read the other thread, but didn't see you mention the size. Drilling a hole there, is basically putting a "leak" in the oil galley.

 

[AJ/FormS]

That's some good detective work right there!