A 440 A-Body... that can handle?

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Nitrocide595

Nitrocide595

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Hey guys, I know I don't post much here, I just read up on a lot of the threads and check the "for sale" threads to see what's popular and what you get for your money.

Well, I scored a deal with my dad's friend and traded up a motor and trans I had for an "almost finished" 440. I need a cam and valvetrain for it, but otherwise, it's a fresh motor. Normally, without a cam, I wouldn't chance it, but it was my dad's friend so I know I can trust him. The only thing is, I don't have a car of my own to put it in yet... I'm a college student (automotive Engineering) and I'm still trying to fight the good fight against the loans and bills, while trying to bust out of the 4 door daily and into Mopar for myself. Dad kinda wants that 440 for the 'cuda as a project for us to do, but that all depends on if I can get a roller, and a few other factors. I'm currently not in the market to get a car, but I'm getting an idea of what I like and what I could do with it if I got it.

I was talking to my dad today since I've been looking at Demons and Dusters, as some of the bigger A-Bodies (I'm a big guy, so big guy needs a big(ger) car) so we got talking about weight and handling. It never really occurred to me that a massive motor like a 440 with Iron heads would make a smaller car evil to handle. As far as what I'd like to do, I'd obviously like to put up in the Mopar Nationals in Englishtown, NJ when the time comes, but the car would be meant to be driven on the street too. I'd like to be able to corner comfortably in it to some degree, but also hook up the rear without tossing 200lbs of sand bags in the trunk. Of course with rising fuel costs, a 440 daily is a stupid-*** idea, I know, but this is all hypothetical here, so bear with me.

So the questions for the Thread-

"How can I make a 440 Demon/Duster handle to some degree?" I'm not talking Autocross... I just mean to take a quick corner down a side road, or to potentially get out of harm's way

"How can I get some nice rear tire hook up in a drag strip situation in terms of suspension, not just slicks?"

thanks guys, and if you need any more info for a better idea of what I'm looking for, let me know!:glasses7:
 
I've forgotten the difference, but I think there is LESS than 100 lbs difference between SB/ BB, all things being equal, IE aluminum intake, headers, etc.
 
To start with , you are gonna need some brakes . 4 wheel drum is not gonna cut it safely . They make suspension upgrade kits , like alter-k-tion , which eliminates quite a bit of front end weight , and allows more front suspension adjustment than original . Cornering capabilities , aftermarket sway bars , coil-overs , stuff like that . Tires : spring relocating kit , narrowed rear , those stupid little low profile 96" rim junk . Definitely need frame connectors , I would advise the weld-in type for that .
 
Weight weight weight. Use as much aluminum in the 440 to get the weight down.aluminum water pump, and water pump housing, aluminum heads and intake will shave a lot of weight. Aluminum radiator,.late model plastic reservoir master cylinder too. Used to build big block b bodies in the 80s these are some of the heavy parts to get rid of. Even make aluminum alternator brackets, light weight mini hi torque starter, and light weight alternators.Every pound lost helps. I have a friend who uses custom brackets and light weight gm style stock car pin type brake calipers too. Also concider mounting your battery in the trunk. Light weight mini starters also help with header clearance issues.

Hope this helps you out
Matt
 
Stock big block 67 to 69 Formula S cars handled fine. 15/16 torsion bars, 15/16 front sway bar, 6 leaf rear springs, good shocks, boxed rear spring mounts. Should be easy to duplicate. 1 inch Torsion bars, 1 1/4 front sway bar, heavy duty rear springs, Bilstein shocks, and subframe connectors. No drag race shocks or Super Stock rear springs. Front Disc brakes, oem swap, are a huge plus. 67-69 Barracudas Dusters and Demons have wider wheel wells.
 
ok, all great information, guys!

As far as the motor goes, I really need to write down the specs and whatever soon, but I know the steel heads are already ported by a local "guru" shop of sorts, and would be a shame to toss/sell. As far as an intake goes, I have a single plane intake for twin 4bl carbs. needless to say, in the interest of fuel and tuning, I'll be swapping that for a single carb set up. I love the 6-pack sets too, but the reality of that happening is slim due to cost and just tuning in general.

as a side note, I swear on my own life to never use anything larger than a 17" rim on a Mopar lol classy with a moderate low profile, and a slight gain of handling characteristics over small rims and a large tire on the street.
 
Better have fiber glass panels/bumper up front to ditch some weight, I would also throw in a roll bar at least.
Could he mount the battery in the passenger side floor board?
Are you building a street rod or some sort of track car?
 
Getting the weight balance right will be a big deal, get as many aluminum parts as possible. The heads really make a big difference, but if you've already got iron heads set up then you can run with those, just one less thing to save weight on. But yeah, aluminum intake, battery in the truck, mini-starter, every little bit helps.

Before you even do suspension, get the chassis right. Subframe connectors will help a lot, torque boxes too depending on the output on the engine.

Torsion bars should be big- I recommend 1" or larger bars on EVERYTHING, including small block cars. These cars were horribly undersprung from the factory in the front, all across the board, from /6 to the big block cars. I run Just Suspension 1" bars in my Duster right now, and I'm going to be upgrading to 1.06" bars at least. PST sells a nice 1.03" bar that should be just about perfect for the street for most folks, they're a site sponsor too. :D Then a good set of shocks, Bilsteins or Hotchkis' new custom valved Fox shocks would be a great start, but they're spendy. Sway bars, probably about as big as you can get in the front, smaller in the rear. Adjustable rear bars are the way to go, especially if you're running heavier springs in the back. On the 108" wheelbase cars you don't even always need a rear bar depending on the rear spring rates.

Tires are a really big deal too, just going to a modern performance tire will significantly improve handling. Unfortunately that means going up to at least 17" rims, you can't get anything in the way of a good performance tire in 15" anymore (BFG T/A's are not a good handling tire!!!). If you don't have the car already, look for a Duster or Demon. I fit 275's on the back of my Duster with the stock spring locations and without jacking up the rear of the car. I believe that 275's will fit on the front as well with the right backspacing. No big & little look if you want to turn corners, running at least a 245 wide front will really help. 245's should fit pretty easily as well, going 255 or 275 makes the fit pretty darn important.

Brakes are a big deal too, you want to stop all that HP. Still, you can use the later Mopar 11.75" rotors up front with stock calipers and get a good upgrade on braking without going to a Wilwood or other kit up front. I run 11.75" rotors on my Challenger and my Duster, they work great. Way better than drums, and better than the 10.87" stock disks too.
 
moparmat2000 said:
Weight weight weight. Use as much aluminum in the 440 to get the weight down.aluminum water pump, and water pump housing, aluminum heads and intake will shave a lot of weight. Aluminum radiator,.late model plastic reservoir master cylinder too. Used to build big block b bodies in the 80s these are some of the heavy parts to get rid of. Even make aluminum alternator brackets, light weight mini hi torque starter, and light weight alternators.Every pound lost helps. I have a friend who uses custom brackets and light weight gm style stock car pin type brake calipers too. Also concider mounting your battery in the trunk. Light weight mini starters also help with header clearance issues.
Click to expand...

I'm in agreement with Matt here 110%. I think with wider wheels/tires, larger diameter torsion bars (like .99's) and possibly a fiberglass hood (if you want), handling should be just fine.
 
Subscribed, I have the option to put a 440 with an 18 spline four speed in my Dart. The only thing that was stopping me was threat of poor handling.
 
I'd gladly do a fiberglass hood, as long as I could do a scoop of some sort (maybe a snorkel?) and a Matte black look on it (always liked that on the demons) I'd also like to see a 4 speed in this hypothetical car at some point too, but that's a ways off obviously

I'm taking note of all your ideas and insights. Opinions really are important to me in this subject. Again, just to reiterate,
1) I don't have a specific car chosen
2) I'm not currently financially able to purchase a project car
3) I'm still deciding what I would want to do with the car (Drag racing or more of an auto-cross style racing), but I know I would like to drive it on the street. afterall, what fun is a car if you can't (legally) drive it to see friends?
 
It depends on the level of handling you want, but my son's 383/4sp 67 Barracuda fastback handled very well (and will again when a new drivetrain is installed).

My other son's 67 440/4sp 67 Dart convertible also handles well, but not anywhere near as well as the Barracuda. The Dart has subframe connectors with factory big block torsion bars (.890") and factory big block front sway bar (I forget the exact size). The rear is kind of cobbled up with some cheap coil-overs to go with stock rear springs. No rear bar.

The key to good street manners are simple. Chrysler put a good basic handling package on the HP cars. The real reason all the road test cars were reported to have poor handling was the quality of the tires and shocks of the day. Even stockish Monroe gas shocks are light years better than the stock shocks were and modern tires are even more of an improvment. Then on top of that most big block conversions years ago were done with drag racing in mind and guys stuck slant six bars up front without a sway bar with stiff springs in the rear. This is a recipe for dive on braking and in every turn...Then add skinnies up front...
 
a 383/400 block weighs less than a 440. 25 pounds less i think.

aluminum heads save a lot of weight as well, vs iron heads.
with aluminum heads/intake/headers you will actually weigh less than a stock small block with iron heads/ iron intake/ iron exhaust manifold.

so a 400 stroked to a 451 or 500 c.i. will give you the power of the 440 at less weight.

torsion bars work fine. although you can upgrade to a modern setup (like hemidenny's rack&pinion/coil over/tubular kframe setup) the old style setup can be tuned properly to even use in autocross. the newer tubular stuff is costly, but can cut about 150 pounds off.

big 17" wheels and rubber can actually lower performance... there is the deadweight factor if the wheels and rubber weigh a lot more. like putting a 50pound weight in your back seat. but there is also the spinning weight factor... it takes torque to spin that 50 pounds in a circle too,
absorbing some of your horsepower and some of your braking power as well. not only that, if it raises the car up it increases your center of gravity higher from the ground, which reduces handling. avoid the "bling look" lol.

hood scoops.... i've personally got water in an engine and bent a rod. i fixed it and the engine was good as new. but what a pain in the butt. as long as it's garage kept and you never get water in the engine you will be fine. otherwise, it's really not necessary.

also a bunch of pictures here of the "Green Brick" a 1969 valiant with leaf springs / torsion bars that kicked a lot of porche & ferrari's asses in some road racing: http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/archive/one-lap-pix.html

STAGING-FAST_COMPANY.jpg
 
One thing I forgot to mention about my son's Barracuda. It had a mild 383 with iron heads AND exhaust manifolds. The only aluminum was the intake and radiator. Interior was mostly gutted, though. The car weighed 3,200lbs on the scales at Sacramento dragstrip.
 
as usual, more AWESOME info from you guys!

Just a little fuel for the discussion, I was talking to my friend today, one who is always making "slowpar" jokes and whatever.... she's got an '03 Mustang Terminator Cobra, and being supercharged, it kicks out about 500HP I believe. now, I know pushing a 440 to get 500 HP on a low budget AND keeping it streetable is just nonsense, SO I don't want to beat her on the numbers... but if I can get a mopar to handle with a big block, like we've been discussing, then THAT will be something to brag about and whatever.

Just thought that was worth mentioning :p
 
Almost sold on this. Have you guys ever used the schumacher motor mount kit with the headers? Pro/ cons? What kind of k-member mods are recommended if going from a six to a 440?
 
I ALWAYS build a Direct Connection k-member for this swap (start with a 73-76 V8 k-member). Uses factory mounts (74-78 big block pass car) and easy to build (I have youtube videos and pics in the tech pages at big block Dart). For handling any header that fits that is NOT fenderwell will work, but watch ground clearance if the car sits low.
 
I have Schumacher mounts and Pro Parts. Everything fit great if I don't lower the front end.
 
I've considered that as the original DC k-members had something there. I have found to really be unnecessary. I suppose in an all-out, gusseted and welded k-member it would be part of that...
 
Jim Lusk said:
500hp is easy with a 440...
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yeah, building the power is easy, but keeping it streetable is the big concern along with MPG (not expecting miracle numbers, but something "average" for a 440). Found a receipt for the motor work dad's friend gave me. This motor is set up for 10:1 Compression, is internally balanced, and had a nice $3K boat load of work on it. I'm almost ashamed at how little I paid for this... but the guy gave me EVERYTHING he had in the garage for it. Some of it I can use and some of it needs an upgrade from stock. I'm just gonna make a list of left over parts I'm not using and I'll post it in the for sale section... maybe make a few bucks to put into this project...

Also, just a quick poll as far as fuel economy goes... what do you guys think of those "quick fuel" easy EFI kits? I know they cost around $3K+, but do you think it's worth the trouble to set up and tune to save a little gas? Honest opinions are more than welcome.

Also, any recommendations on Intakes? Like I mentioned, I got that dual 4Bl single plane that I'm not willing to use. that might be going up for sale soon either on craigslist or the forums.
 
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