A883 2nd & 3rd question

[rtee007]

Quick question Moparites....tranny jumps out of gear sometimes in 2nd and 3rd only.
Time for an overhaul or?

 

[rumblefish360]

How long has this been happening?

Did you try an adjust it from under the car? At the shifter itself?
Which gear jumps out? Or is it both?

 

[KosmicKuda]

Quoting direct from Factory Service Manual:
1.Linkage Interference
2.Gearshift Rods out of adjustment.
3. Second or direct speed gear synchronizer clutch teeth worn.
4. Clutch linkage bore or face out of alignment.

 

[TrailBeast]

Quoting direct from Factory Service Manual:
1.Linkage Interference
2.Gearshift Rods out of adjustment.
3. Second or direct speed gear synchronizer clutch teeth worn.
4. Clutch linkage bore or face out of alignment.

two things they didn't mention there were a worn gear/shaft surface and interlock teeth on the gears themselves.
A gear that is loose on it's shaft can wiggle around and cause the gear to jump out.

Also there are little angled teeth on the gears that interlock into the slide rings that basically force it to stay in place under a load.
When these get worn the angle changes on these teeth to where they actuall force the gear away instead of holding it locked in place.

A redo for sure and possibly even a new gear or two and a shaft.

Note the angles at the ends of the teeth on this slider ring?
The slider and the gear itself have these, and are what causes the gear to stay in.
When those angles get worn down they allow the gear to be forced out of the ring and this is what you feel at the shifter when it jumps out of gear.

Not say this is all it is by any means, but it does need to be checked while it's open and they are looking at why it jumps out.

Worn shift Forks
slider teeth
gear teeth
Friction surfaces condition (gears, rings and shafts)
Bushings and bearings

These are the most common causes of jumping out of gear.

I exagerated the angled section on one of the teeth with the two red lines so you can see how it works.
The ring and gear both have these so that they interlock once in position.

 

[rtee007]

It has been doing this since I have had the car, about 6k. Usually happen if I am in 2 or 3 only on deceleration.
I have adjusted nothing.....yet.

 

[TrailBeast]

It has been doing this since I have had the car, about 6k. Usually happen if I am in 2 or 3 only on deceleration.
I have adjusted nothing.....yet.

Everything I posted above still applies, but jumping out of gear on deceleration is usually a worn gear or shaft where the gear rides on it.

(Wear allows the gear to move around on it's shaft when you let off the gas and it falls out of the slide ring)

 

[AJ/FormS]

How long has it been grinding on shifts? Upshifts only? or downshifts too? Does it jump out mostly with the power on? or on decel too? Only on 2nd and 3rd?
Do the linkage tests first.

-If it ends up being the clutch teeth on the gears,(The most likely), Ive got some tips for you.
-The A-833 gears do an odd thing. They like to wear clutch teeth on the decel (coast)side of only 6 teeth; 3 side by side,on one side and 3 more,side by side, at 180* on the other side. The cheap,easy,simple,fix is to grind those 6 clutch teeth back to where they no longer contact the slider(synchronizer) teeth.Six different teeth will come into play.Then angle-cut the front sides(drive sides) of any/all bad drive surfaces. Then do the same on the synchronizer teeth. Then sharpen all the worn teeth. This will restore all the surfaces to working condition.
-You can use a die-grinder for this, but I have never found a carbide bit to successfully do this. It requires a little grinder disc, about 1/8 or 3/64 thick and 5/8 to 7/8 in diameter mounted on a small mandrel for the clutch teeth, and a smaller one for the slider teeth. You may need several discs in total.Once you get the hang of it you will be grinding all your friends gears too.
-I also cut oil channels up the faces of 3 of the the cones(skipping 1st).I cut three on each, about equidistant from eachother.I cut them from the clutch teeth to the top of the cone. I make then about 1/8 to 3/16 wide and 1/16 to 3/32 deep. I do this with a very small disc so that it leaves a nicely bottom-rounded channel like a river, not like a tire-rut. This provides a place for the gearoil to escape and speeds up the shifts. Do not use synthetic. Its way too slippery, and slows the shifts.
-Additionally, you should deglaze the polished cones, so the brass bites hard on them.This is usually done on a lathe, with emery-cloth roll and a suitable backing-strap like a file.I use 100grit, but you might want to start with 180 to 220 as a newbe. The brass should lock on with only a tiny bit of pressure.Almost by its own weight.I bias the polish on the gears so they bite best in the upshift direction, except 1st, which I bias-polish for downshifts.
I have done hundreds, maybe thousands of trannys like this.(not all A-833s, but every major make and trucks too).
Now, replace all the worn brass rings, and you will be good for many more years. Some times/lots of times, when you buy a 4-pac of new brass rings not all of them are any good. If you find one or more that dont bite, heres what you do; A)Either re-use an old one(pick one that sits high on the cone and bites), or B) fix the bad one. The fix is actually pretty easy.The brass is usually oval from a drop.Oval rings dont bite, unless you press down hard. You dont want that.So stick the bad ring on the input gear(usually the least worn). Just set it on there gently.Figure out in which direction it rocks. Mark the pivot points with a sharpie.Now you will want to squeeze it round. So those Sharpie marks will need to move away from the cone.No you cant squeeze it using human power.As a newbe I suggest you use a vise.Put it in there, correctly orienting it, and put a little squeeze on it. Make a mental note of where the vise handle ended up at. You may need to do this several times, using more pressure each time until you get it.Now fit it up again and check the bite. Repeat as often as necessary to get bite/no rock.If youre scared to try this, consider that a rocking ring is garbage anyway.It could happen that you bend it too far and it rocks in a new direction and the Sharpie marks are no longer correct. Make new marks and start over. Now, I dont use this method, but I think its best that a newbe does, cause its the least likely to destroy that ring. And if you really want to know I use a hammer.But remember, Ive built thousands of manual transmissions.
-Some guys rant about worn struts.I say phoey to that. Some of my struts are almost as old as Methusela.Just remove the sharp edges and reuse them. However the energizer springs are more particular. Stretch them out a good half inch and gently reinstall. Sometimes I use more than one per side.Put the best biting brass on 2nd and 3rd, the poorest on 1st.Remember 1st needs to bite in the downshift direction.
-Make sure the snapring on the input gear bearing is the right one.Install the assembled input gear into the retainer and make sure the snapring drops in and is not standing proud above the recess in the retainer. The blue ones that come with the bearings are usually wrong(too big an OD and often too thick).I would say always, but sure as heck somebody, somewhere has received a bearing with a snapring that actually fit and then I would be a liar, and liars are on the list of people that cant get into heaven.
-I have been doing these mods,as well as others on my personal rides, and many friends rides, since the 70s. My trannies shift sweet at any/all rpms. Mine bangs in at 7200rpm, regularly. It has a few other mods.
Ok then, getrdone. PS, hello TB

 

[rtee007]

I will just pull it and send it out for a rebuild..........It doesn't grind at all, just jumps out of 2nd and 3rd only.

How long has it been grinding on shifts? Upshifts only? or downshifts too? Does it jump out mostly with the power on? or on decel too? Only on 2nd and 3rd?
Do the linkage tests first.

-If it ends up being the clutch teeth on the gears,(The most likely), Ive got some tips for you.
-The A-833 gears do an odd thing. They like to wear clutch teeth on the decel (coast)side of only 6 teeth; 3 side by side,on one side and 3 more,side by side, at 180* on the other side. The cheap,easy,simple,fix is to grind those 6 clutch teeth back to where they no longer contact the slider(synchronizer) teeth.Six different teeth will come into play.Then angle-cut the front sides(drive sides) of any/all bad drive surfaces. Then do the same on the synchronizer teeth. Then sharpen all the worn teeth. This will restore all the surfaces to working condition.
-You can use a die-grinder for this, but I have never found a carbide bit to successfully do this. It requires a little grinder disc, about 1/8 or 3/64 thick and 5/8 to 7/8 in diameter mounted on a small mandrel for the clutch teeth, and a smaller one for the slider teeth. You may need several discs in total.Once you get the hang of it you will be grinding all your friends gears too.
-I also cut oil channels up the faces of 3 of the the cones(skipping 1st).I cut three on each, about equidistant from eachother.I cut them from the clutch teeth to the top of the cone. I make then about 1/8 to 3/16 wide and 1/16 to 3/32 deep. I do this with a very small disc so that it leaves a nicely bottom-rounded channel like a river, not like a tire-rut. This provides a place for the gearoil to escape and speeds up the shifts. Do not use synthetic. Its way too slippery, and slows the shifts.
-Additionally, you should deglaze the polished cones, so the brass bites hard on them.This is usually done on a lathe, with emery-cloth roll and a suitable backing-strap like a file.I use 100grit, but you might want to start with 180 to 220 as a newbe. The brass should lock on with only a tiny bit of pressure.Almost by its own weight.I bias the polish on the gears so they bite best in the upshift direction, except 1st, which I bias-polish for downshifts.
I have done hundreds, maybe thousands of trannys like this.(not all A-833s, but every major make and trucks too).
Now, replace all the worn brass rings, and you will be good for many more years. Some times/lots of times, when you buy a 4-pac of new brass rings not all of them are any good. If you find one or more that dont bite, heres what you do; A)Either re-use an old one(pick one that sits high on the cone and bites), or B) fix the bad one. The fix is actually pretty easy.The brass is usually oval from a drop.Oval rings dont bite, unless you press down hard. You dont want that.So stick the bad ring on the input gear(usually the least worn). Just set it on there gently.Figure out in which direction it rocks. Mark the pivot points with a sharpie.Now you will want to squeeze it round. So those Sharpie marks will need to move away from the cone.No you cant squeeze it using human power.As a newbe I suggest you use a vise.Put it in there, correctly orienting it, and put a little squeeze on it. Make a mental note of where the vise handle ended up at. You may need to do this several times, using more pressure each time until you get it.Now fit it up again and check the bite. Repeat as often as necessary to get bite/no rock.If youre scared to try this, consider that a rocking ring is garbage anyway.It could happen that you bend it too far and it rocks in a new direction and the Sharpie marks are no longer correct. Make new marks and start over. Now, I dont use this method, but I think its best that a newbe does, cause its the least likely to destroy that ring. And if you really want to know I use a hammer.But remember, Ive built thousands of manual transmissions.
-Some guys rant about worn struts.I say phoey to that. Some of my struts are almost as old as Methusela.Just remove the sharp edges and reuse them. However the energizer springs are more particular. Stretch them out a good half inch and gently reinstall. Sometimes I use more than one per side.Put the best biting brass on 2nd and 3rd, the poorest on 1st.Remember 1st needs to bite in the downshift direction.
-Make sure the snapring on the input gear bearing is the right one.Install the assembled input gear into the retainer and make sure the snapring drops in and is not standing proud above the recess in the retainer. The blue ones that come with the bearings are usually wrong(too big an OD and often too thick).I would say always, but sure as heck somebody, somewhere has received a bearing with a snapring that actually fit and then I would be a liar, and liars are on the list of people that cant get into heaven.
-I have been doing these mods,as well as others on my personal rides, and many friends rides, since the 70s. My trannies shift sweet at any/all rpms. Mine bangs in at 7200rpm, regularly. It has a few other mods.
Ok then, getrdone. PS, hello TB

 

[DDodger]

check that some dipstick has not installed the wrong mainshaft bearing. this is the main ball bearing at the junction of the tail and main case. some years had a snap ring in the housing, some i think had a ring in the bearing. been a long time. but make sure the bearing is correct and does not allow front rear shaft play this will mostly affect 3rd, but will also shift the position of 1 - 2 relative to the shif forks

 

[sireland67]

Everything I posted above still applies, but jumping out of gear on deceleration is usually a worn gear or shaft where the gear rides on it.

(Wear allows the gear to move around on it's shaft when you let off the gas and it falls out of the slide ring)

X2 time for a tear down.
I think the worst for popping out of second gear is the old 230 3-speeds.

 

[pntastar69]

Most likely will be the gear itself. Be prepared to shell out some $$$.

 

[340 Jimmy]

don't mean to highjack another fellas thread but i have the same thing going on, pops out of 3rd gear when there is no load on the tranny but have also noticed that it doesn't seem to go into 3rd fully everytime so I was thinking it could be the shiftfork or worn shifter. I took my car out for a ride tonight and I couldn't get it to pop til about the 10th time I shifted into 3rd.

could this be from a worn shifter or 3-4 shiftfork?

 

[AJ/FormS]

Yes it could. Could be other stuff too. Like; shifter/linkage alignment/loose levers/worn combs/bad back bearing/driveline vibration/engine shake/tranny mount.
But the most likely thing for a no load pop-out is insufficient engagement, due to a very worn fork. The steel forks can easily be repaired(hard brass brazing). The cover can be removed from inside the tunnel.

Jimmy, before you pull the cover, check the other stuff, especially loose external levers on their mounting studs. They HAVE to be tight. I think the cover comes off easiest if in 2nd? Its pretty tight in the tunnel. Have fun putting the gasket in there! lol.

 

[340 Jimmy]

thanks AJ,
I forgot to ask about the cover removal and if it could be done with the tranny still inside the car. guess I have a small weekend project.

hopefully it is just a fork or the shifter.

 

[TrailBeast]

Yes it could. Could be other stuff too. Like; shifter/linkage alignment/loose levers/worn combs/bad back bearing/driveline vibration/engine shake/tranny mount.
But the most likely thing for a no load pop-out is insufficient engagement, due to a very worn fork. The steel forks can easily be repaired(hard brass brazing). The cover can be removed from inside the tunnel.

The real problem comes from jumping out of gear repeatedly, as it ruins the interlock teeth on the gear and slider both.
That one is going to take some hard parts, as well as possibly some of the things you mentioned above.

 

[AJ/FormS]

TB; I fix those teeth regularly. Almost any tranny. Ok, havent run across a tranny yet that I couldnt fix those teeth on. Its not difficult. My trannys have all been done. Some more than once. If you pull em out at first sign of trouble, it just takes a touch-up. I got spare trannys and parts . Havent yet needed them. Kinda like the spare back window. Havent needed that yet either.Or.............

 

[340 Jimmy]

Hey AJ,

here is a picture of my 3-4 slider, I used a black marker to indicate where I think you are suggesting that I use a small die grinder to remove some material, let me know if this is correct or if I missed the boat.

thx for the advice
Jimmy

 

[AJ/FormS]

Hyup, youre in the right area.But I think youre too far in.It doesnt matter to be too far in,it just doesnt help at all.If you look real close, between your marks and the front edge of those flanks, up near where the flank turns and becomes the point, you will see the normal wear areas. These normal wear areas are very short,being about .100 long. If you get the light in there just right you will see them.Where the shiny,worn part meets the virgin flank, thats where you make your trough, from the bottom of the flank to the top.You need to bring that trough forward to cut about 1/3 of the worn part away, and to a depth of about .010 But you have to leave the very front 1/3 alone. This way, after you cut the worn 3rd gear clutch teeth away, the newly engaging clutch teeth will lock behind the front uncut parts of the teeth and end up in the troughs you cut, where they will lock in, and no longer jump out on closed throttle deceleration.
Make sure you are cutting the coast-side flanks,and the matching coast sides of the 3rd gear clutch teeth.Instead of cutting the entire flanks back on the clutch teeth, you can do the same to them,cutting the back 2/3 of the face,back at an angle. Dont get upset if during the trough cutting, you cut the adjacent flanks. Just grind your disc a bit smaller in diameter and keep on going. Sooner or later it will be the perfect size.
------------------
Is this the 3-4 sleeve thats giving you trouble? Cause I cant see anything wrong with those flanks. How about a couple more pics, turning the sleeve about 15 to 30 degrees in both directions, and a bit less glare if you can.And make sure you are showing me the 3rd gear side.And maybe a pic or two of the 3rd gear clutch teeth.

 

[340 Jimmy]

Hey AJ, yes this is the 3-4 sleev that I am suspecting is my trouble spot, I pulled the forks and they looked fine (minimal wear on 3-4 fork).

I took some extra photos this am, hopefully the light is better.

I did some touch ups on the 3rd gear already (just playing around last nite) so some of those clutch teeth faces are already modified.

appreciate any feedback

View attachment 3rd gear #1.jpg

View attachment 3rd gear #2.jpg

View attachment 3rd gear #3.jpg

View attachment Slider #1.jpg

View attachment Slider #4.jpg

View attachment Slider #5.jpg

View attachment Slider #6.jpg

 

[AJ/FormS]

As to the last pic; Is that white mark the forward side? That would be 4th gear? It appears to me, all the pics are of the same side.That would make the side furthest from the camera 3rd gear, and the lit-up flanks at the back are the drive flanks of 3rd gear. And they look fine, as they should cause theyre not the issue.Have I got that right?
That would mean the second pic from the last is the pic Im interested in.Unfortunately the angle is not quite right. The last pic is a good shot. I can clearly see the engagement areas.I need a shot like thatof 3rd gear coast side flanks.You know what I would try is to set up a lamp on the far side shining through the slider,and turn the flash off.The flash is bouncing off the points, and doesnt seem to penetrate down into the bottom of the splines that well.
-----------
As to 3rd gear.All the flanks Im able to see look pretty good. But the ones I m interested in are those 3 or 4 flanks in a row, on the coast side that are worn. I need a shot of them, a good 30* off axis, with the light bouncing of them. Perhaps a lamp off to the left, and then without flash.
-------------
Its a good effort though
Hey I just had an idea. If you wanted to ship them over to me, I can doctor as many of those as you ship, and I wont charge you one thin dime, so long as you cover the shipping. Takes me something like 3 minutes per gear, and 10 to 15 per slider.Heckofadeal.

 

[340 Jimmy]

Hey AJ,

Thanks for the offer, that would be great.

I will send them along with some extra dough to cover return shipping & then some for shop supplies, I suspect you might encounter.

can you send me a pm with your address and I will ship them asap.

Jimmy

 

[AJ/FormS]

Parts received, modded and shipped.
The cover was the instigator. Loose external levers on the studs with tight nuts.Seen that many,many times.
And one wrong size linkage bushing, on the 1-2 rod, which I swapped onto the reverse rod.
The points on the 3-4 slider were beyond repair.The flanks were good.

 

[AJ/FormS]

TB, I just reread this thread, and in post 16, it kinda sounds like I was being curt with you. That wasnt the case at all. It was just an FYI statement.So my apologies if you took it personal. Sorry.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Getting back to the OP, rtee007, where are you at with your situation?

 

[TrailBeast]

TB, I just reread this thread, and in post 16, it kinda sounds like I was being curt with you. That wasnt the case at all. It was just an FYI statement.So my apologies if you took it personal. Sorry.

If you were, I missed it.
No worries mate.