A998 w/ Lockup in a 65 Dart with 273

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PocketAces

PocketAces

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I'm in the process of restoring my Dart and I've been trying to stay fairly original. But when it comes to the transmission, I'm seriously tempted to upgrade to some newer technology. Of course I would keep the original transmission in case I ever want to go back to a stock setup.

My 273 is being rebuilt with Egge Domed pistons. CR should come in somewhere between 9.0 - 9.3 to 1. Isky E-4 Cam. Factory Carter 4 bbl on a factory 4 bbl intake. I have the original 904 automatic transmission and floor mounted cable shifter. My driveshaft has been modified to include a slip joint and a universal joint which eliminates the ball and trunion. I currently have 2.94:1 gears, but also have a set of 2.76:1 gears I could put in.

I will never drag race the car. My goals are good gas mileage, decent acceleration, and comfortable freeway cruising.

I'm not interested in cutting or modifying the tunnel. I like the idea of a wider spread between the gear ratios so I can run freeway gears but still have some fun off the line. I would love to have overdrive, but since that's not an option, it seems that a lockup converter is the next best thing.

So based on all that, I think a later model A998 or A999 with lockup torque converter is what I'm looking for. My hope for this thread is to get some advice on what's involved in the swap and what donor vehicles to target.

Since my engine is being rebuilt, I can have the crankshaft machined for the larger snout of a later model transmission.

I have found the cable kit from Imperial Services to adapt the 1965 cable floor shifter to the later model transmission. http://www.imperialservices.net/Aparts.html This cable and bracket costs $180 so if there is a cheaper solution for this problem, I'm all ears.

I already have a 1966 drive shaft which I am assuming will work. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Are there any issues connecting the speedo cable?

Will my 1965 kick down linkage work?

What are the differences between the various years and models of these transmissions? What years did the gear ratios change? Were there design improvements that make later models superior to earlier ones? Am I correct that earlier lockups were internally controlled while later models had an electronically controlled lockup? I would prefer the lockup to be internally controlled, assuming it makes good decisions and does not hunt continually.
 
Here's a good thread where the OD was installed in a later year car but the procedure for a Early A should be similar. I'm not saying it can't be done it is just difficult. Use the search function because I believe there are some who have installed a GM 200 because of it's small case size. I know, not Mopar. tmm

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=178459&highlight=a500
 
toolmanmike said:
Here's a good thread where the OD was installed in a later year car but the procedure for a Early A should be similar. I'm not saying it can't be done it is just difficult. Use the search function because I believe there ar some who have installed a GM 200 because of it's small case size. I know, not Mopar. tmm

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=178459&highlight=a500
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link, but I'm not willing to cut the cross member or modify the tunnel. OD would be awesome, but I'll have to settle for lockup converter, taller rear gears and lower 1st and 2nd ratios.
 
doug 371 said:
I had 1 out of an 85 fifth ave in my 68 valiant...worked real well :)
Click to expand...

Was the lockup still internally controlled in 85?

I'm not sure, but I think I've read that at some point they became electronically controlled and some guys will wire up a switch to control the lockup. I wouldn't want to have to remember to turn the lockup on and off.
 
Pre-95 would be hydraulically controlled. A 5th Avenue transmission would be a good starting point. You'll also need to convert to a later drive shaft, shifter, and speedometer cable.
 
Ok you have somethings you need to understand before gathering parts.

Mopars have a split from 67 and earlier and 68 and later. The early stuff has a smaller spline count and smaller converter hub diameter. you cannot mix and match UNLESS you have a custom converter built for the large spline/small hub or run small spline/small hub with the spacer.

now i dont know if they can make that custom converter with lock up capabilities. if you want an OD your better off doing the 200 as you just have to make a crossmember but you'd have a true OD and lock up depending on years.
 
Keep the 2.94 gears with the A998.

Dual 2 1/4" exhaust with "Turbo" mufflers will let it breath.

Use a 500 cfm Edelbrock AVS 4bbl carb or better yet Throttle Body fuel injection with O2 sensor for closed loop operation.

26" diameter rear tires would work great with this combo.
 
doug 371 said:
I had 1 out of an 85 fifth ave in my 68 valiant...worked real well :)
Click to expand...

X2.

I had a tranny from an 85 5th Ave in my car for 11 years, up until last year. It was great for economy, but don't expect any performance because a shift kit or performance converter doesn't exist for those transmissions.

The converter had a stall speed of about 1200 rpm. If your car doesn't make great power at idle it might not behave well in gear while stopped. I had to have my car idle at 1200 in neutral. But in gear it would be 650.

The converter was pretty smart though. It would only lock up in 3rd gear. At normal acceleration it would lock up just when you would expect it to. At full throttle it would lock up as soon as you shift into 3rd and you don't even notice it - 3rd gear just feels taller. When coming to a stop you can't tell when it unlocks. I figure it must happen during the shift from 3rd into 2nd.

Based on what you said you're looking to do with your car one of those trannys might work well for you. I beat the crap out of mine for 11 years and it was still going strong when I swapped to a more performance oriented 904.
 
805moparkid said:
also the domed egg pistons are 10.5:1 compression
Click to expand...

Egge can't even tell you the compression height of their own pistons. I got a set and measured them. They are .030 to .035" shorter than the TRW forged commando pistons I had. Combine that with taller than spec deck, larger than spec chambers and oversized head gasket and you're doing good to get much above 9:1.
 
autopar3000 said:
The converter had a stall speed of about 1200 rpm. If your car doesn't make great power at idle it might not behave well in gear while stopped. I had to have my car idle at 1200 in neutral. But in gear it would be 650.
Click to expand...

The low stall speed makes me nervous. The Isky E-4 is not that big of a cam but still, it's a 273, not exactly a torque monster. If it was pulling down the idle speed that much it must have tended to creep really bad. Was your engine healthy? Did it have a big cam?

I think this makes the research that much more important. Maybe their were different converters used in different years?
 
805moparkid said:
Ok you have somethings you need to understand before gathering parts.

Mopars have a split from 67 and earlier and 68 and later. The early stuff has a smaller spline count and smaller converter hub diameter. you cannot mix and match UNLESS you have a custom converter built for the large spline/small hub or run small spline/small hub with the spacer.

now i dont know if they can make that custom converter with lock up capabilities. if you want an OD your better off doing the 200 as you just have to make a crossmember but you'd have a true OD and lock up depending on years.
Click to expand...

The engine is being rebuilt. I plan to have the rebuilder machine the crank for the larger torque converter snout.
 
805moparkid said:
Ok you have somethings you need to understand before gathering parts.

Mopars have a split from 67 and earlier and 68 and later. The early stuff has a smaller spline count and smaller converter hub diameter. you cannot mix and match UNLESS you have a custom converter built for the large spline/small hub or run small spline/small hub with the spacer.

now i dont know if they can make that custom converter with lock up capabilities. if you want an OD your better off doing the 200 as you just have to make a crossmember but you'd have a true OD and lock up depending on years.
Click to expand...


THIS

He's saying that the later converters WILL NOT FIT your early engine crank.
 
C130 Chief said:
Pre-95 would be hydraulically controlled. A 5th Avenue transmission would be a good starting point. You'll also need to convert to a later drive shaft, shifter, and speedometer cable.
Click to expand...

Would a 66 speedometer cable and driveshaft work?
 
TrailBeast said:
I thought they made an adapter for that.
Click to expand...

no he would be going small crank large hub, which some (Edge) make a hybrid but I don't know if they do the lock up to.

The spacer/adapter is so you can run a small input/hub in a 68 and newer motor (large hub)
 
65DartGTConv said:
Egge can't even tell you the compression height of their own pistons. I got a set and measured them. They are .030 to .035" shorter than the TRW forged commando pistons I had. Combine that with taller than spec deck, larger than spec chambers and oversized head gasket and you're doing good to get much above 9:1.
Click to expand...

is that computed or estimated? we ran the Egge flat tops and came in right at 9:1 in our 67 273
 
65DartGTConv said:
Was the lockup still internally controlled in 85?

I'm not sure, but I think I've read that at some point they became electronically controlled and some guys will wire up a switch to control the lockup. I wouldn't want to have to remember to turn the lockup on and off.
Click to expand...

no power wire required...all internally
 
65DartGTConv said:
That's computed.

Actually I can get to 9:1 with minimal milling, a 61cc chamber volume and an .028 head gasket, but I can't get much above that without more milling.

Here's a link to my engine build thread with the numbers:
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?p=1970239061#post1970239061

Did you measure the compression height of Egge's flat tops?
Click to expand...

see we ran a .021 thick 318 gasket, I recall something like a 3.7" bore maybe? I know it was under 4" though.

and no we just measured how far In the hole, gasket bore/compressed, and chamber cc's. I just don't remember what they are now lol... sorry
 
I have the A999 in my 1940 dodge coupe,,,the motor is a tiny first hemi, 1953 241C,I. WITH 7.1 compression,,and a over sized hemi grind cam,not my doin,,, from what ive heard the 999 has a lower then normal first gear ratio,,,the car weighs around 3000-3200 has A 3.23 rear gear,,,it idels at 8.25 rpm.,,,in netrual and drops to 6.25 rpm in gear,,gets out of the hole pretty good we are talking less then 200 horse power,,, i dont know how or what but as far as i know no machine work has been done to the crank for the larger hub,,,,,the early hemi ,s must have a bigger convertor register hole,,,, any way no need for giant horse power to run this trans,,,it goes down the highway at 80 mph with the A/C on 18mpg,,,
 
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