advice on heads

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This is what my guy quoted me for the $820:
bigger valves 2.02/1.60
Valve job
Decked
Bowls blended to the bigger valves
8 new valve guides
This guy owns a racing shop and builds engines for a living. he races a couple of dragsters. I have known him for years and he knows what he is doing. I was going to leave the smaller valves in as someone told me awhile back. they said it would be better for street use. But my shop guy told me the bigger valves would be better. I do not need to go aluminum. I am just looking to get more horses out of Tylers car. poor guy had a rice rocket blow his doors off on the interstate the other day and he is pissed. l

That all sounds good but..... The engine guy is a drag racer, and this makes sense for racing. Take the heads you have, modded as described, and rev them to 3000-3500 and beyond with the low compression pistons that you have, put in a bigger cam yet, and then the torque and HP will start come on at the high RPM's. But the issue here is that this plan combines open chamber heads with a low compression bottom end, and the result is pretty predictably going to be an engine that is doggy still at the lower RPM's... which is where you spend most of your of time on the street. It is starting with a low static CR and then making the dynamic CR lower still with a larger cam.

So that is another reason to reccommend changing to closed chamber heads: get the CR up so that low compression bottom end that you have won't be such a low RPM dog. Being low CR to start with, it will very likely not matter if you use iron or aluminum, but getting that CR up is the point. The only way to get close to that with the present heads is to deck them quite a bit. Has he said how much of a head shave he is going to do for you? It's gonna have to be in the .060" range to get the combustion chambers down in the 60 cc range of combustion chamber size.

If not, expect a doggy low RPM engine, and then change rear gears and torque converter and all that to keep it revved it up all the time, and there goes your gas mileage, etc.....
 
I think he mentioned a .050 shave on the heads. But, I like the closed chamber idea rather than the ones I have now. also, I cannot change the cam as I have already bought it. So I am assuming the best option at this time is the closed chamber heads. can I use the rockers from the J heads on them with new pushrods the same length.
 
Ok, that's a little more info. The rationale for getting more power is BS. I could outrun any old cars with stock suspension with my Neon on the highway. They are just not that good at high speeds. So I'd have that conversation...lol.
In terms of heads - the EQ heads would be the first choice as replacements. They don;t come as assemblies - they are bare. And they are Magnum based - no LA valvetrain will work. You can get them made for the standard LA intake - so no special manifolds needed. They are limited by lift - but you aren't anywhere near that so you're good. So you need to look at the cost of heads, valves, springs, retainers, and locks, rockers and stands, and pushrods. None of that is big dollars for your intended use but it's not a case of $300 heads and you're good. Your head guy is on target with his work and your use. So I wouldn't discount the LA heads either - you'll be at that figure for the EQ Magnums too, but they will flow more overall and where your cam wants it.
 
Another option for you, assembled with good parts and ready to bolt on and go.

http://www.immengines.com/indyimmironheads.html

These heads are way more than what OP needs, his cam is only a 268...2.02 intakes and porting will actually give him LESS torque where he needs it on street RPM's. You certainly would not want to open up chambers, he needs as much comp as possible. I purposely didnt recommend Edelbrocks as he wont have enough comp to heat aluminum heads and get a good burn.

With that small of a cam, OP will get more street power with OOTB EQ than reworked stock LA, Edelbrock or worked big valve Indy/EQ's. Simply a waste of $600+.
 
^^ I was thinking more about the EQ's too with their smaller combustion chambers to help the low CR. Or the Edelbrock Magnums with the same 58 cc chamber. The valvetrain conversion cost is the same and the EQ's would be around $100 less each than the Edelbrock Magnum with the best discounts on the Edelbrocks. I assume there is more long term power potential in the Edelbrocks than the EQ's.....but that is only of value if you ever use it.

Static CR would end up in the low 9's with the .039" Felpro 1008 gaskets which is a safe place to be.

No comment on the 'more power' !
 
I think he mentioned a .050 shave on the heads. But, I like the closed chamber idea rather than the ones I have now. also, I cannot change the cam as I have already bought it. So I am assuming the best option at this time is the closed chamber heads. can I use the rockers from the J heads on them with new pushrods the same length.

the LA's use a shaft or rail mounted rocker while the EQ's use a stud or pedestal mounted type rocker. You can either get a set of stock magnum rockers that bolt down to heads on a pedestal/pivot or put in studs and use stud mounted rocker like these.
 

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You will need magnum head bolts which are $35. You will need a different length push rod as well. you can use your LA 5 bolt valve covers if you have nice ones. We have rocker/stud/push rod kits like this
 

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^^

Static CR would end up in the low 9's with the .039" Felpro 1008 gaskets which is a safe place to be.

No comment on the 'more power' !

that 360 probably has the pistons down .080 and a huge top dish.
have you calculated the compression with 58 cc heads to be above 9:1
 
Ok, that's a little more info. The rationale for getting more power is BS. I could outrun any old cars with stock suspension with my Neon on the highway. They are just not that good at high speeds. So I'd have that conversation...lol.
In terms of heads - the EQ heads would be the first choice as replacements. They don;t come as assemblies - they are bare. And they are Magnum based - no LA valvetrain will work. You can get them made for the standard LA intake - so no special manifolds needed. They are limited by lift - but you aren't anywhere near that so you're good. So you need to look at the cost of heads, valves, springs, retainers, and locks, rockers and stands, and pushrods. None of that is big dollars for your intended use but it's not a case of $300 heads and you're good. Your head guy is on target with his work and your use. So I wouldn't discount the LA heads either - you'll be at that figure for the EQ Magnums too, but they will flow more overall and where your cam wants it.

The EQ heads come bare or assembled. The $949 price is COMPLETELY ASSEMBLED PAIR, SHIPPED. Bare heads are about $300 each.

They are capable of lift in the .600" plus range so I am not sure what you mean by "limited"
 
^^ I was thinking more about the EQ's too with their smaller combustion chambers to help the low CR. Or the Edelbrock Magnums with the same 58 cc chamber. The valvetrain conversion cost is the same and the EQ's would be around $100 less each than the Edelbrock Magnum with the best discounts on the Edelbrocks. I assume there is more long term power potential in the Edelbrocks than the EQ's.....but that is only of value if you ever use it.

Static CR would end up in the low 9's with the .039" Felpro 1008 gaskets which is a safe place to be.

No comment on the 'more power' !

My cost on Edelbrocks is about $1600 depending on which part # you get, they need about $250 prep work before instillation unless you like to gamble on them being set up correctly...less than 50% are from my experience. Even with the various "discounts" that surface form time to time, 30% off $1800 is still $1200 and you get the $600 discount in the form of a gift certificate, so its not really paying $1200 cash. If you throw in the prep/check out cost of $250(average) and add it to the additional $250 over EQ you are looking at $1100 more but you get to pick out $600 in parts from AZ or whoever has coupon. Doesnt even sound comparable to me. The "power potential" of Eds over EQ's is in the range of 40HP but that is only with massive cnc porting that would do OP no good. The EQ's will easily make 400+HP OOTB and I have seen 575+ with EQ, possibly 600, and that was on a stroked 5.2! The OP will not see 400 HP with the cam he has but should be a strong 350+ HP. The 1.6 ratio rockers on the Magnum will help the 268.
 
These heads are way more than what OP needs, his cam is only a 268...2.02 intakes and porting will actually give him LESS torque where he needs it on street RPM's. You certainly would not want to open up chambers, he needs as much comp as possible. I purposely didnt recommend Edelbrocks as he wont have enough comp to heat aluminum heads and get a good burn.

With that small of a cam, OP will get more street power with OOTB EQ than reworked stock LA, Edelbrock or worked big valve Indy/EQ's. Simply a waste of $600+.


I think you need to reread what was posted, they charge to open up the chamber, they do not come that way. And I would not call it porting, blending in the 202 intake valve
To the bowl, that needs to be done after cutting it to the 202 size. It also comes in LA or Mag version, run the LA and use you existing rockers. And if the OP is running the 268 cam, stock J heads will work just fine also as well as the EQ's. i would run a different cam with a new set of close chamber heads my self. But it's easy to spend other people's $
 
Thanks guys for the info you all have given. I have read each one of the responses and with all the different angles and ways I can go it seems like each way presents more changes to be made so I think I am going to just have these J heads worked and have him do as much as he can to give me as much as he can and leave it at that. I bought this motor that was sitting for a period of time out of the vehicle because Tyler wanted to just drive his car after we finished the restoration. We had a couple of 340's sitting here at the time and had planned on eventually of building one. But he wanted to drive it now. I couldn't blame him so I bought the engine and tore it down and honed the cylinders and put rings and bearings in it. There was no ring wear what so ever on the engine. Had only about 30.000 miles on it. I told him then he didn't have a fast car and he didn't care. He saved a lot of green and got to drive his classic. Now he would like to have a little more power. I don't know exactly how much he will pick up with the cam and heads but he should be happy. This guy has a dyno at his shop and I plan on putting it on there when its done. But with all I have been through lately with the heart operation, I want something simple for now. Maybe later we can put a crate engine in the car if he wants. But thanks for the help. Bill
 
My cost on Edelbrocks is about $1600 depending on which part # you get, they need about $250 prep work before instillation unless you like to gamble on them being set up correctly...less than 50% are from my experience. Even with the various "discounts" that surface form time to time, 30% off $1800 is still $1200 and you get the $600 discount in the form of a gift certificate, so its not really paying $1200 cash. If you throw in the prep/check out cost of $250(average) and add it to the additional $250 over EQ you are looking at $1100 more but you get to pick out $600 in parts from AZ or whoever has coupon. Doesnt even sound comparable to me. The "power potential" of Eds over EQ's is in the range of 40HP but that is only with massive cnc porting that would do OP no good. The EQ's will easily make 400+HP OOTB and I have seen 575+ with EQ, possibly 600, and that was on a stroked 5.2! The OP will not see 400 HP with the cam he has but should be a strong 350+ HP. The 1.6 ratio rockers on the Magnum will help the 268.
That is all good info. BTW, we paid $110 for the check on the Edlebrocks and that included undercutting the seats with a Serdi machine for a better valve to port transition. So that cost obviously varies quite a bit from what you state. The only issue with the guides was small bronze burrs in 4 of 16 guides; otherwise, they were good to go.

The Edelbrock price is in the $800 range per head, not $900, so you're off by a couple hundred $$. But you are right on the rest coming as a gift card. I know I can spend $500-600 in the regular course of work and car car; I run 2 diesel pickups with 12 and 15 qt oil changes every 3000-4000 miles. So YMMV on that part for sure.

Thanks for the notes in the HP capability; that is good to know. And you are right on the rocker ratio, but either Magnum will end up there.
 
Rusty, elaborate on the camshaft you mentioned in post # 17. I posted a thread awhile back about what cam to run in this engine and the consensus was to go with the XE268 cam. Most said that it would be the best bet.

That's because it's safe. It's what everybody recommends and is a good and very popular cam. It will work good. Nothing "wrong" with it.

The addition of good flowing aluminum heads with superior to stock ports opens up a whole nuther can of worms, IMO.

No way would I use the 268, when those heads will support (basically WANT) a good bit more cam.

Just my opinion of course.
 
well I have eliminated the aluminum head scenario. just going with the rebuild on the J heads I have. from what I have read and been told they will work for what I am wanting out of the engine. Can I get better, probably but I don't have the energy right now to deal with. But thanks for all the input.
 
The EQ heads come bare or assembled. The $949 price is COMPLETELY ASSEMBLED PAIR, SHIPPED. Bare heads are about $300 each.

They are capable of lift in the .600" plus range so I am not sure what you mean by "limited"



Unless things have changed - you can get assembled heads from various shops - but not from Engine Quest. Out of the box they are only bare castings. They were designed to be a service replacement for cracked but operational factory heads where you would just re-use everything.
So in my opinion things like flow data, and quality of parts can't really be guaranteed accross the board as these will vary with the other parts chosen.
In terms of lift - .600 at the valve, with a 1.6 Magnum type rocker, is limited. That only leaves you actual cam lobe size of .385" or so. They are limited because they don't have deep enough spring seats to cut down and get a taller installed height. Factory rockers don't work wel with taller valves which means a more expensive rocker setup - one that can push the overall " on the car and ready to run" cost similar to an LA based aluminum head. So they are great for factory displacements that are destined for mild to mid-sized cam. Great head on the right engine. Great "as delivered quality. But limited when looking at larger displacements or higher rpm power levels. They are a great fit for the OP's intended use.
 
I think you need to reread what was posted, they charge to open up the chamber, they do not come that way. And I would not call it porting, blending in the 202 intake valve
To the bowl, that needs to be done after cutting it to the 202 size. It also comes in LA or Mag version, run the LA and use you existing rockers. And if the OP is running the 268 cam, stock J heads will work just fine also as well as the EQ's. i would run a different cam with a new set of close chamber heads my self. But it's easy to spend other people's $

I did read about heads and putting a 2.02 on an engine with a 268 cam will cost OP torque . Not a good idea. Also, the EQ heads flow better for street without messing with them. OP made no mention of anything but mild street. The extra $ would be a waste without a cam in the 280+ duration. As far as what you mentioned about the EQ "LA heads, you are incorrect, the "LA" version of the EQ heads are exactly the same with the exception of intake bolt angle. ALL EQ heads use a bolt down pedestal or stud mounted rocker. Perhaps you were thinking of Edelbrock "LA" heads which come with shaft mounts cast into head.
 
Unless things have changed - you can get assembled heads from various shops - but not from Engine Quest. Out of the box they are only bare castings. They were designed to be a service replacement for cracked but operational factory heads where you would just re-use everything.
So in my opinion things like flow data, and quality of parts can't really be guaranteed accross the board as these will vary with the other parts chosen.
In terms of lift - .600 at the valve, with a 1.6 Magnum type rocker, is limited. That only leaves you actual cam lobe size of .385" or so. They are limited because they don't have deep enough spring seats to cut down and get a taller installed height. Factory rockers don't work wel with taller valves which means a more expensive rocker setup - one that can push the overall " on the car and ready to run" cost similar to an LA based aluminum head. So they are great for factory displacements that are destined for mild to mid-sized cam. Great head on the right engine. Great "as delivered quality. But limited when looking at larger displacements or higher rpm power levels. They are a great fit for the OP's intended use.

Sorry, but I sell 4-5 pairs of EQ a week. I personally know their sales staff and exactly what parts go into them. I also know Howard as Vegas Machine and Crankshaft , which is where EQ gets all their assembled heads built at. They assemble most of our heads as well. I dont believe that swapping between valves will affect flow of the head in anything but tiny amounts, and that would only be with a back cut or necked down valve stem. You would be taking about numbers so small that it would be tough to measure. I have sold hundreds of pairs and can tell you that I have never seen as much as a few cc's difference between ports or heads. I doubt you could find a difference of 3 HP between heads that are OOTB and not cleaned up.

You say you cant cut spring seats in EQ enough to get springs for big cams ? OK...I know a guy that runs over .600" lift with a 5.2 and EQ heads. Its stroked to 379 I think and it runs ridiculous times in a small tire fish. This engine makes over 580HP.

The front cover of Car Craft has a 5.9 build done by member here , IMM, I believe and its 450+ HP and 450+TQ with nothing more than a piston swap(for valve clearance), EQ heads w clean up, cam and not sure which intake. Will be out soon. Perhaps then you will change your mind. These are not mild build heads, they will run with the rest of them if not more.

Back to OP, he clearly stated that he was dead set on 268, so he could easily use the EQ OOTB with springs for $949 and a set of factory rockers for cheap or a set of roller tips with studs and push rods for $299. Hell we paid almost that much just to fix the last few sets of Edelbrocks before they got installed. I prefer the EQ on a street build, they make a bit more torque down low.

If you get the LA Edelbrocks, they are more $. Summit is right at $900 for cheapest Ed. Thats more than a bit compared to $1248 pr ready to go with CrMo .080 pushrods and roller tip rockers, comp studs...

IMHO, putting $800 in old shaved low comp heads with 2.02 " intake, hoping to get comp to 8:1 is just putting a pig in a pretty dress(and keeping drag racing machinist working), it will still be a pig. It will be a low comp small cam 285 HP engine. Those heads could easily crack after enlarged, valves, port work and a .050" shave. Hate to see good $ thrown at old outdated parts. And to clarify, I am not trying to sell him parts, he can get them from Jegs for $10 more, I am plenty busy, I am offering the best advise for the question asked and to get him as close to his HP goal as possible, which will be approx 325-240 HP with EQ, not open chamber ones.
 
That is all good info. BTW, we paid $110 for the check on the Edlebrocks and that included undercutting the seats with a Serdi machine for a better valve to port transition. So that cost obviously varies quite a bit from what you state. The only issue with the guides was small bronze burrs in 4 of 16 guides; otherwise, they were good to go.

The Edelbrock price is in the $800 range per head, not $900, so you're off by a couple hundred $$. But you are right on the rest coming as a gift card. I know I can spend $500-600 in the regular course of work and car car; I run 2 diesel pickups with 12 and 15 qt oil changes every 3000-4000 miles. So YMMV on that part for sure.

Thanks for the notes in the HP capability; that is good to know. And you are right on the rocker ratio, but either Magnum will end up there.

Yea, I have had a few sets that only needed a inspection, and we have done it in house several times but it seemed more than not, they ended up at machine shop so just easier to let them pull em apart. I have had a few sets that were $200, basically a new valve job and guide ream or replace. Last pair had 3-4 at .0007 and 3-4 at .004. No Bueno. Some good and some not so good. Its a nice set of new valve covers though....

I didnt research price, it was right off summit page and was $919 or something close to $900. I get Edelbrock but it takes 2 weeks and you dont make more than a cup of coffee when you sell them. Customer convenience but more are going with EQ, specially since local pro stock state champ runs EQ on stroked 5.2 . Its a "mild street build" these heads are famous for. :D
 

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I did read about heads and putting a 2.02 on an engine with a 268 cam will cost OP torque . Not a good idea. Also, the EQ heads flow better for street without messing with them. OP made no mention of anything but mild street. The extra $ would be a waste without a cam in the 280+ duration. As far as what you mentioned about the EQ "LA heads, you are incorrect, the "LA" version of the EQ heads are exactly the same with the exception of intake bolt angle. ALL EQ heads use a bolt down pedestal or stud mounted rocker. Perhaps you were thinking of Edelbrock "LA" heads which come with shaft mounts cast into head.

These are not EQ heads, they are Indy X heads, they come in magnum or LA version, but have the closed chamber like a magnum or EQ. LA version has pedistal mount rockers like any LA would and oil through the rockers like an LA. You can get a set from
Indy they are 1.92/1.625 valves set up for $1050. I didn't know the OP was stuck on the 268 cam, if that's the case, Any closed
Chamber head would be a good way to go to gain some compression with a stock 360 short block.
 

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poor guy had a rice rocket blow his doors off on the interstate the other day and he is pissed.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned Tyler was gonna get pissed getting beat by a ricer, when you took the bigger carb off, and put that 600 back on.

All the cam or heads in the world isn't gonna perform with that puny carb,

I won't say it ... lol .. jmo

cheers
 
If you plan on using the factory heads then, the 268 will probably be a fine choice.
 
If you get the LA Edelbrocks, they are more $. Summit is right at $900 for cheapest Ed. Thats more than a bit compared to $1248 pr ready to go with CrMo .080 pushrods and roller tip rockers, comp studs...
FWIW.... and probably not a lot! Edelbrock 670779 is $824.50 shipped from at least 3 sources.... Advance Auto, Summit, Tennessee Speed Sport. And they show up cheaper from time to time. Accurate info is always good....
 
FWIW.... and probably not a lot! Edelbrock 670779 is $824.50 shipped from at least 3 sources.... Advance Auto, Summit, Tennessee Speed Sport. And they show up cheaper from time to time. Accurate info is always good....

I typiclly just check scummit or jegs for a price but that price is below Edelbrock MAP price. They are making $24.50/head....more power to them and a prime example of why I dont give a rat turd about Edelbrock....the whores of the aftermarket.
 
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