All Mopar \6 Fuel Injection?

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wintermute

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Hi guys, F'n new guy! I've been poking around here and slantsix.org reading up on Fuel Injection conversions, and I just realized that I haven't seen anybody try adapting Jeep Cherokee or Wrangler 6 cylinder setups.

I don't have a slant …yet, but it's something I've been itching to get into for quite a while and a fuel injection conversion is very intriguing.

Plenty of these guys do engine swaps to V8s, so I figure there should be some parts availability. I was thinking a complete setup from a swapped out or junkyard engine; PCM, harness, coils, injectors, sensors, cam (or crank) triggers… Granted there would still be quite a bit of PCM tuning to get going, but a set of parts that are already designed to work together seems like a good starting point to my :newb: mind.

Am I missing something, or would this actually have a chance of working?
 
Regardless of the parts sources the fabricating is pretty much the same. I don't know if the intake runner spacing on the 4.0 jeep engine is close enough to allow the fuel rail to be used, but it would be a nice source if possible. You would still need to aquire/make a injection intake. Crank sensor is generally handled using a toothed wheel on the crank pulley and a custom bracket to hold the sensor. Cam sensor I believe is being handled by cutting down a slant dizzy. I don't believe the factory pcm is very programmable but I could be wrong.

This is one of those places where I think any car can be a suitable donor not just mopar stuff.
 
There was a guy's posting which was about the ford 96/7 mas system. It seemed to be about the easiest, if that is possible, FI conversion. The most basic is a throttle body swap. I saw one here for sale a month or two ago for cheap, But you have to have a four barrel manifold.
 
There was a guy's posting which was about the ford 96/7 mas system. It seemed to be about the easiest, if that is possible, FI conversion. The most basic is a throttle body swap. I saw one here for sale a month or two ago for cheap, But you have to have a four barrel manifold.
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Might'a been me

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=198603

But this brings up a point. It might just be that a Ferd system off a Ferd inline 300 6 whanger might be an easy swap

The whole deal with the system I have is somebody already DID it and used the same type Ford distributor --running backwards. So this means one of similar year, using the shutter wheel Hall Effect system can be reversed if need be. I don't remember which direction a Ferd 6 distributor goes.

But if you want "All Mopar" the V6's would be your only source, I'd guess.
 
Am I missing something, or would this actually have a chance of working?

IF you're actually a newbie at slant sixes, there may be pertinent facts of which you may not be aware, that miight alter you course of action regarding engine mods.

The main fact is, that the 225, (and to a lesser extent, the 198-size slant sixes,) have a big problem trying to breathe through the original cylinder head since it was only designed for a 170 cubic-inch motor. There are no easily-available alternatives (NO aftermarket cylinder heads,) beyond adding larger valves and porting, which does help, but isn't going to make two horsepower-per-cubic inch possible, normally-aspirated.

The problem exists because the managment that ordered the original engineering on that motor wanted a short engine (front-to-rear) and that design factor dictated small cylinders. Small bore cylinders don't leave room for very big valves, and since the ports were designed for a 170, and were never changed, getting enough air through there, to feed an engine 35-percent larger, even with a ported head, is still a problem.

You can add the nicest-appearing, best-flowing intake system to that head, imaginable, and pick up some horsepower yes, but the head is always going to be the flow-bottleneck that stifles performance.

It is possible to make enough power normally-aspirated, to have a lot of fun with an A-body, using the usual, everyday modifications like hi-compression pistons, a 4-bbl carb, (or, in your case) Fuel Injection, headers, and a higher-lift, longer duration cam. One FABO member has his /6 Valiant running low 11s with no power adder. But it's been treated to a full-race buildup, probably isn't very streetable, and is installed in a severly-lightened body (2,350 pounds, I think.)

There's another FABO member who has a 1970 Dart that has a milder engine, but still pretty well "built," that better exemplifies what most folks would more likely do, but his Dart runs very low 14's... and maybe high 13's by now.

Fuel injection isn't going to change that, appreciably.

You can add nitrous to any engine and pick up power on demand. But nitrous is an ongoing expense and some don't like the prospect of running out at the wrong time...

The other alternative is forced induction; supercharging or turbocharging.

Because the slant six was originaly an aluminum engine (60,000 aluminum ones were built before Ma pulled the plug,) the construction parameters of the leaning tower of power are exceedingly strong. All the early ones had forged cranks, and the changeover to cast iron as a block-construction materisl was done without doing much re-design of the main bearing webs, and other strength-giving elements of the block. It's almost built like a Diesel. STOUT!

That fact makes it possible to add large amounts of cylinder pressure through forced induction, to high boost levels that produce prodigious amounts of power by autilizing forged piston and rods (easily available) and O-ringing the block.

Two such examples have been built by members of tis board and two others are being built as we speak. The two that have already been run have provided us with videos that demonstrate that they make in the neighborhood of 500 horsepower, each. That's with a slight overbore on a 225, and a ported head. One 4-bbl carb is used. They don't need rpm to do this: 5,500 rpm is the redline for both of them.

I am not suggesting that many people want to get 500 horsepower out of one of these engines, but the prospect of a 300 horsepower slant six with a turbo should be a not-too-difficult exercise in hop-up, nor very expensive.

Going that route might not be any more expensive or difficult than build the FI engine, which could be a chore to get 300 horsepower out of.

It's just food for thought; Good luck with whatever you decide!! Slants are fun, either way! :cheers:
 

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You guys are great! The Jeep manifolds look to be a different arrangement than the slant six, so the fuel rail would most likely be out. I pretty much expect to be doing-or having done-a decent amount of fabrication with the manifold and fuel rail.

Maybe the best way to choose a donor engine is to look at what tuners are available and go from there.

Bill, great points on making power with these engines. I'm not looking for a race engine, just really improved economy/efficiency and maybe a bit more power if it comes with the territory. If I wanted to up the output without getting too crazy, what's a fairly easily attainable target sticking with NA? 150-200hp with a PnP job, intake, exhaust and maybe a cam?

Careful selection of gear ratios would likely get the most drivability out of the engine too.
 
Might want to contact Richard , pretty sure he has done a few / EFI builds.....
 

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Just swap in the jeep 4.0l instead. You get good reliability and a massive aftermarket.

I have actually thought about this swap but I don't have the balls to do it.
 
It would be easier to install a 4 bbl intake and a TBI system like Accel or Holley Pro-jection. The Accel TBI uses standard MPFI injectors, so you can swap to smaller ones to match a slant's fuel needs. Motorvation and others have a similar (same?) TBI. After-market ECU's don't usually require a crank sensor, just a coil connection for rpm, TPS, and better ones add MAP and IAT sensors (not Pro-jection). MAF is nice and adaptable, but harder to package and not really necessary.

That said, I am planning a custom MPFI for my slant, but another year.
 
Might be easier but would much rather have a tpi set up instead of a tbi set up
 
There's a thread over on Slantsix.org that used a Buick multi-port injection system for the donor. The beauty of the system is that there are no timing issues. The drawback is that it is not timed to the opening of the valve.

IIRC, the thread also includes a shopping list of what must be culled from the donor vehicle. Obviously the Buick fuel rails won't work, but there are instructions for fabricating one that won't cause self-immolation.
 
You should be able to make your own EFI manifold without much trouble. Pick up a new/ used 4bbl manifold, and look at my thread --Kit Carson posted how to use 1/2" tube x 3/8 pipe compression fittings for injector mounts. I had to turn them out a small amount to fit the injector. You need to get them in a straight line if you are going to use extruded fuel rail, but you could get accurate enough, if careful, by building a fence on your drill press, and mounting the manifold on a "sled" so that you can slide it back/ forth on the press. Since /6s have an "even" edge where the head flange is, this should be easy. See here:

http://www.bangshift.com/forum/showthread.php/4410-El-Cheapo-Injector-Bungs

http://www.dune-buggy.com/turbo/partslist.htm

(One of the pages says 3/8 compression x 1/2 pipe but it's the other way around)

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There's a thread over on Slantsix.org that used a Buick multi-port injection system for the donor. The beauty of the system is that there are no timing issues. The drawback is that it is not timed to the opening of the valve.

IIRC, the thread also includes a shopping list of what must be culled from the donor vehicle. Obviously the Buick fuel rails won't work, but there are instructions for fabricating one that won't cause self-immolation.

This does not seem to be a huge issue. The Ford guys fight with two different firing orders--- one the old traditional 289/302 (15426378) and the 302HO/ 351W whatever that is. And remember, many of the first years of TPI used "batch fire". My 86/7 Ford V6 Ranger does that. It fires half and half
 
Bill, great points on making power with these engines. I'm not looking for a race engine, just really improved economy/efficiency and maybe a bit more power if it comes with the territory. If I wanted to up the output without getting too crazy, what's a fairly easily attainable target sticking with NA? 150-200hp with a PnP job, intake, exhaust and maybe a cam? QUOTE]

Here's a list I compiled that will give you at least, a ballpark idea of how much power (remember, I said "ballpark"... these are not absolute numbers, but arrived at by mathematical formulas and featuerd on a website that calculates et's, horsepower, speed and weight factors. I think they are reasonably accurate, but don't take them to the bank!)

This of course, does not consider wind resistance, gearing, your ability to hook up your car, or altitude (barometric pressure/temperature.)

Still, I think it's useful for comparisons:

In a 3,300-pound car, (including driver)

150 hp = 16.3 @ 82mph
175 hp = 15.5 @ 86 mph
200 hp = 14.8 @ 90 mph
225 hp = 14.2 @ 94 mph
250 hp = 13.8 @ 97 mph
275 hp = 13.3 @ 101mph
300 hp = 12.95 @ 103 mph

Like I said; those are ballpark figure and are good for discussion, only.

Tom Wolfe put a Buick Grand National turbo on the bone stock 225 that was in his '70 Dart adding only an aftermarket 4bbl carb and manifold, and went 12.95 @ 104 mph.

Here's the video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPe_vHwZsF4"]Slant Six Turbo 1970 Dodge Dart 1/4 Mile pass - YouTube[/ame]

The thing is, he was running 21 pounds of boost to get it that fast.

A stock slant short block won't last long running that kind of boost.

Apparently, he was making about 300 horsepower with that setup.

But, I'd think that it might be possible to make 200 horsepower with a turbo on a stock engine and have a reasonable lifespan. You might want to invest in an alcohol injection unit, but it should be a pump gas motor and have probably better-than-stock fuel economy and great driveability; stock cam and never pull the head.

Just a thought... a really cheap way to get a slant into the 14's...

You'd need a 4bbl carb/manifold and a turbo adapter welded onto the exhaust manifold and some cold-side plumbing. I think that's it... and, limit it to about 10 pounds of boost.

You can build a 200 hp normally-aspirated slant, but will need the same 4bbl and manifold, a cam, headers, a milled head and better gearing for driveability.

Probably, more money...

You pays your money and you takes your cherce.... :cheers:

Good luck, whichever way you choose to go!!! You really can't make a mistake, either way!
 
Forced induction is not always the answer. Seems like the building/tuning of it would be far more complicated than injecting one. After all, cruising with forced injection with a slobbering carb. will result in the safe efficiency as cruising n/a with a slobbering carb......
 
Richard Nedbal Fastman EFI as stated above is a great guy to talk to. Has been working on EFI since the 70's. Developed Toyota's EFI back then. The Mopar Muscle article is over 10 years old and alot has changed since then.But it's still not cheap anyway you look at it. The intake and fuel rail was around $700 bucks to do. The throttle body was close to $1000. All in all that project cost around $5000 bucks just for the EFI back then.
If you do a search over at slantsix.org, a guy named Greg did up his using that intake and a Megasquirt computer.I think he used a Jeep throtlebody. It turned out real well and is his daily driver. I think he has video on youtube.
 
After all, cruising with forced injection with a slobbering carb. will result in the safe efficiency as cruising n/a with a slobbering carb......

Can you translate that sentence into something I can understand, please?:prayer:
 
Just swap in the jeep 4.0l instead. You get good reliability and a massive aftermarket.

I have actually thought about this swap but I don't have the balls to do it.


One of the reasons for the slant in the six was that it had a lower profile for a lower hood line. Has anyone tried this and would you happen to know how much taller the Jeep4.0 is than the SL6?
Thanks..
 
Going FI with EFI is interesting, but it's just not what I'm looking to build, despite the impressive power gains. It's a shame the heads never got any attention during the production run–aside from the Aussie hemi prototypes(?) I read that Mopar Muscle article on the EFI slant six, they did a lot to that engine!

I'm looking for a reliable, efficient, cruiser with enough power to keep up with modern freeway traffic. I'll probably take what I can get with basic breathing mods. Everything I've owned and worked on has been EFI, it's something I'm comfortable with. I also understand that it takes a lot of tinkering to get right. I look forward to the challenges.

If I was going to swap engines, I'd just drop in a Hemi and be done with it. But then it would just be another Hemi swap. Fun and powerful, yes, but not as interesting or unique IMHO. –and I really like unique!
 
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