Almost blew up Turbo Slant

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Landons65Dart

Landons65Dart

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So I decided to turbocharge my '65 Dart's stock 225 slant six. It ran great! 15 pounds of boost and it could beat out stocker small blocks. It started smoking quite a bit, and burned 2 quarts of oil in a day. Pulled the motor and decided I wanted to do a twin turbo small block, but then recently changed my mind back to a hypo turbo slant six. Discovered my motor is a factory replacement (no vin) and its a '70 motor, which by chance happens to be the best motor and head to build. Started dissecting it and found the head gasket was blown in 3 places... Thought that was the problem.

I pulled the oil pan and flipped the motor and pulled the oil tube off. When it came off, chunks of metal fell out of it. Aluminum chunks. Knocked all the Pistons out and didn't find one piston damaged.... but ALL SIX Pistons were completely broken/cracked. At least this was just for fun. This time I'm going all out on the build. No shortcuts.
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she be balanced now:burnout:

just melted my first sb turbo build. good excuse to build it better.
 
Landons65Dart said:
So I decided to turbocharge my '65 Dart's stock 225 slant six. It ran great! 15 pounds of boost and it could beat out stocker small blocks. It started smoking quite a bit, and burned 2 quarts of oil in a day. Pulled the motor and decided I wanted to do a twin turbo small block, but then recently changed my mind back to a hypo turbo slant six. Discovered my motor is a factory replacement (no vin) and its a '70 motor, which by chance happens to be the best motor and head to build. Started dissecting it and found the head gasket was blown in 3 places... Thought that was the problem.

I pulled the oil pan and flipped the motor and pulled the oil tube off. When it came off, chunks of metal fell out of it. Aluminum chunks. Knocked all the Pistons out and didn't find one piston damaged.... but ALL SIX Pistons were completely broken/cracked. At least this was just for fun. This time I'm going all out on the build. No shortcuts.
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Glad to hear the next permutation will have forged internals. I think anytime the boost goes much over 10 pounds, they (forged pistons and rods) are needed.

Wiseco has some forged aluminum pistons that are .045"-over that have the pin location that will match up with the 198, K-1, forged H-beam rod (7.05"-long.) It's a matched set, and comes with a set of low-drag, thin rings, so that all you have to do, once the block is bored and finish-honed, is to set the ring end-gap. (.022"-.025").
I would advise you to investigate some 220,000-psi ARP-brand, head studs; they are good insurance against head gasket failure. O-rings can be cut and installed more easily BEFORE the block is put into the car. Iskenderian has a dandy O-ring cutter they will rent you...

The rods and pistons, with rings, are total of about $1,000.00, but it's good insurance, and will make possible some high boost adventures, later on...:D

Both Ryan Peterson and Tom Wolfe have that setup and they both run 28 pounds of boost in their 500HP+ motors...
I have that combination of parts in my motor and it is 231 cubic inches with no milling of the mating surface of the head or block, and yields a true (measured) compression ratio of 9:1.... about right.

Good luck!:cheers:
 
Bill Dedman said:
Glad to hear the next permutation will have forged internals. I think anytime the boost goes much over 10 pounds, they (forged pistons and rods) are needed.

Wiseco has some forged aluminum pistons that are .045"-over that have the pin location that will match up with the 198, K-1, forged H-beam rod (7.05"-long.) It's a matched set, and comes with a set of low-drag, thin rings, so that all you have to do, once the block is bored and finish-honed, is to set the ring end-gap. (.022"-.025").

I would advise you to investigate some 220,000-psi ARP-brand, head studs; they are good insurance against head gasket failure. O-rings can be cut and installed more easily BEFORE the block is put into the car. Iskenderian has a dandy O-ring cutter they will rent you...

The rods and pistons, with rings, are total of about $1,000.00, but it's good insurance, and will make possible some high boost adventures, later on...:D

Both Ryan Peterson and Tom Wolfe have that setup and they both run 28 pounds of boost in their 500HP+ motors...
I have that combination of parts in my motor and it is 231 cubic inches with no milling of the mating surface of the head or block, and yields a true (measured) compression ratio of 9:1.... about right.

Good luck!:cheers:
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Personal opinion: Wiseco/K1 combo is overpriced and overrated. All they (or any other company for that matter) had to do was make a simple forged piston, but they made a $1000 piston/rod combo that you can't use one without the other. :violent1:

Alternative: https://www.flatlanderracing.com/index.html (Rebuild kits section in sidebar>High performance rebuild kit>Chrysler) $970 for pretty much EVERYTHING except for a cam, and the pistons are custom forged ones with thin metric rings being a $130 option.

Couple of other things, why are 220,000psi studs so much more special than 200k ones? Cuz ARP has the 200k ones in stock, and most likely it'd be more economical than having a custom set made.

And... a 9.1 compression would be pretty close to the last thing I'd want if I were building a boosted slant, and apparently others feel the same because if I remember correctly, Tom runs a CUSTOM piston with his K1 rods that puts him somewhere around low 8s, maybe even high 7s. Pretty sure I read that over on the turbo forums.
Another runs a .100 copper gasket to lower compression. Are you sure Ryan really runs a 9:1?

Oh, and
Landons65Dart said:
Discovered my motor is a factory replacement (no vin) and its a '70 motor, which by chance happens to be the best motor and head to build.[/ATTACH]
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What do you mean? Does it have 'BH' stamped somewhere on the block? Those are the only 'best' blocks that I know of, supposed to have thicker walls. Heads (as long as they don't have the dimple in the chamber) are really just a matter of preferrance as far as I know. Some like the drool-tube with its lighter weight and more spark plug choices, some like the peanut head for its ability to be ported out more and not leak from the spark plug tubes.
 
Brandon Weaver said:
Personal opinion: Wiseco/K1 combo is overpriced and overrated. All they (or any other company for that matter) had to do was make a simple forged piston, but they made a $1000 piston/rod combo that you can't use one without the other. :violent1:

I wanted the long (seven-inch) rods, and the package price isn't significantly different that the price I assume is part and parcel of the "rebuild package" if you order the narrower rings, which are included on the Wiseco pistons. I wasn't able to figure out the pricing on the rebuild package deal, so, I may well be wrong on that. But, the long rod has less side-loading of the piston, and I thought that to be a worthwhile benefit.


Alternative: https://www.flatlanderracing.com/index.html (Rebuild kits section in sidebar>High performance rebuild kit>Chrysler) $970 for pretty much EVERYTHING except for a cam, and the pistons are custom forged ones with thin metric rings being a $130 option.

Couple of other things; why are 220,000psi studs so much more special than 200k ones? Cuz ARP has the 200k ones in stock, and most likely it'd be more economical than having a custom set made.

The off-the-shelf ARP studs for the head hold-down at the time I bought these, were not 200,000psi, they were 180,000psi. That must have changed between then and now. The 220,000psi set we got was part of a "group buy" at a reduced price, because we bought several sets (ten? I don't recall.) They also had a set available that were 260.000psi, but were considerably more money, so we went with the 220,000psi set. But, that is still ten percent more clamping force, (than the 200,000 currently-available "off-the-shelf", 200,000psi ARP studs,) and that is a significant amount, I think.

And... a 9.1 compression would be pretty close to the last thing I'd want if I were building a boosted slant, and apparently others feel the same because if I remember correctly, Tom runs a CUSTOM piston with his K1 rods that puts him somewhere around low 8s, maybe even high 7s. Pretty sure I read that over on the turbo forums.
Another runs a .100 copper gasket to lower compression. Are you sure Ryan really runs a 9:1?

No. but I will attempt to find out; it's a good question.


For the street, I agree RE: the 9:1 compression, but this engine in my car will never be asked to run on 93 octane, nor on the street; I will likely have a 50/50 mixture of pump gas (Premium) and the unleaded race-version I think they call "C-112." I have a properly-sized air-to-air intercooler and run a Snowperformance "Boost Cooler" coming on at 8psi of boost, for more charge cooling, so, I am hoping for no detonation problems. The block is O-ringed with copper wire. A locked plate delivers spark from an MSD Blaster Coil and a 6-AL II digital module. I utilize spark with 18 degrees total, with no curve, and no vacuum advance.
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Instead of o ring the block wouldn't a good multi layer head gasket be just as good? Call cometic and see if they make a head gasket. On my boosted engine my srt4 never had to o ring and held over 20psi and street driven all the time and always hitting 20psi, and race tune turned ot up to 30 with no problems course I agree and get head studs 100%.
 
As of last year cosmetic didn't offer a multi layer head gasket.

I tired a copper head gasket from hussey before they went out of business and i wasnt happy with it and couldnt get it to seal. I ended up useing a stock felpro with copper Oring om the head to match the fire ring on the gasket. I used arp head studs that were 220000 psi. And never lefted the head but i did shave the head .040 to true it up.
I had two motors setup this same way and both motors saw about 18 pounds of boost.
In my opinion to get the true potential out of a turbo slant EFI is needed number one and six cyclinder dont see enough fuel no matter what i tired when i took exhaust temp reading 2,3,4,5 always ran richer and one and six were lean.
And with efi and the injectors pointed directly at the combustion chamber you want have that problem.
I blew my first motor and melted a hole in number 1 piston after 5 back to back passes in the 1/8 mile turning the boost up on that last past to 18 psi. The car didnt go lean but i just pushed it to hard.opps
The second motor the crank got into the crank scrapers and dug a 1/16 of inch deep and about a 1 inch wide turning out of the counter weight. Im not sure if the drive line got out of balance or i bent the crank but the motor locked up on me. The car never ran better before this happend and i was doing final shake down before MOPARS AT MILAN and it knocked the wind out of my sails. I had to come long the car on the trailer when i got it home a car cover was put on it and there it sat till i decided to part it out.
It wasnt till that decision that i found the problem but i had already started saling parts. And i regret parting it out now because that could of been a easy fix but it is what it is and im moving forward now and the valiant is getting my dream power plant.
Just thought id throw out some of my experience
One more thing both motors were setup with stock internals. Tom has the k1 setup in his motor now but pushed a stock bottom end to over 25 psi of boost and Ryan has stock .030 over trw pistons and stock rods and he was pushing 25 psi plus as well..........
Aaron
 
Didn't know they didn't have one. Has anyone called them and asked if anyone were to send then a stock one they could start making the multi layer? Just curious
 
Matts440 said:
Didn't know they didn't have one. Has anyone called them and asked if anyone were to send then a stock one they could start making the multi layer? Just curious
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Matt,I initially talked to Cometic on the phone about three years ago about making a MLS-gasket for a slant six for a forced induction motor, and at that time, their position was, yes, we will make one for you, but it will cost $3,000.00 for the original tooling cost. I decided that I couldn't afford that, so, went with the Iskenderian O-Ring route, instead. I followed Aaron's lead and cut the block to match the diameter of the Fel Pro "fire ring," a circular, metal area just a small distance outside the bore. The O-Rings are centered on that metal ring. I torqued the head to 90 pounds feet in 5 pounds feet increments, and re-torqued it, after it had warmed up.:prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer:

So far, so good, but ten pounds of boost is as high as I have tested it, currently... More boost will be forthcoming soon, as I finally get it on the strip for some test and tune.

That will be interesting! :coffee2:
 

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srixon4406 said:
As of last year cosmetic didn't offer a multi layer head gasket.

I tired a copper head gasket from hussey before they went out of business and i wasnt happy with it and couldnt get it to seal. I ended up useing a stock felpro with copper Oring om the head to match the fire ring on the gasket. I used arp head studs that were 220000 psi. And never lefted the head but i did shave the head .040 to true it up.
I had two motors setup this same way and both motors saw about 18 pounds of boost.
In my opinion to get the true potential out of a turbo slant EFI is needed number one and six cyclinder dont see enough fuel no matter what i tired when i took exhaust temp reading 2,3,4,5 always ran richer and one and six were lean.
And with efi and the injectors pointed directly at the combustion chamber you want have that problem.
I blew my first motor and melted a hole in number 1 piston after 5 back to back passes in the 1/8 mile turning the boost up on that last past to 18 psi. The car didnt go lean but i just pushed it to hard.opps
The second motor the crank got into the crank scrapers and dug a 1/16 of inch deep and about a 1 inch wide turning out of the counter weight. Im not sure if the drive line got out of balance or i bent the crank but the motor locked up on me. The car never ran better before this happend and i was doing final shake down before MOPARS AT MILAN and it knocked the wind out of my sails. I had to come long the car on the trailer when i got it home a car cover was put on it and there it sat till i decided to part it out.
It wasnt till that decision that i found the problem but i had already started saling parts. And i regret parting it out now because that could of been a easy fix but it is what it is and im moving forward now and the valiant is getting my dream power plant.
Just thought id throw out some of my experience
One more thing both motors were setup with stock internals. Tom has the k1 setup in his motor now but pushed a stock bottom end to over 25 psi of boost and Ryan has stock .030 over trw pistons and stock rods and he was pushing 25 psi plus as well..........
Aaron
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Aaron, thanks for the great post!!!

I really appreciate the time you spent on that very-informative piece!!!


Glad to her that your current project is coming along; that will be awesome!

You do great work; keep on keepin' on,
 
Bill Dedman said:
Matt,I initially talked to Cometic on the phone about three years ago about making a MLS-gasket for a slant six for a forced induction motor, and at that time, their position was, yes, we will make one for you, but it will cost $3,000.00 for the original tooling cost. I decided that I couldn't afford that, so, went with the Iskenderian O-Ring route, instead. I followed Aaron's lead and cut the block to match the diameter of the Fel Pro "fire ring," a circular, metal area just a small distance outside the bore. The O-Rings are centered on that metal ring. I torqued the head to 90 pounds feet in 5 pounds feet increments, and re-torqued it, after it had warmed up.:prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer:

So far, so good, but ten pounds of boost is as high as I have tested it, currently... More boost will be forthcoming soon, as I finally get it on the strip for some test and tune.

That will be interesting! :coffee2:
Click to expand...

Holy crap wouldn't think no be that much for them make the mold. Do what you need to do. Glad to hear yours is holding steady.
 
Bill Dedman said:
Aaron, thanks for the great post!!!

I really appreciate the time you spent on that very-informative piece!!!


Glad to her that your current project is coming along; that will be awesome!

You do great work; keep on keepin' on,
Click to expand...

Thanks Bill im almost ready to start the mock up stage i have a bare block and im going to gut a trans and start the mock up. Once i get the turbo headers fabbed up the rest should go pretty easy. Ill start a new thread once mock up begins, there's not to many 62 valiants out there with boosted big blocks.
Bill im still waiting on some video of the beast................
Aaron
 
srixon4406 said:
Thanks Bill im almost ready to start the mock up stage i have a bare block and im going to gut a trans and start the mock up. Once i get the turbo headers fabbed up the rest should go pretty easy. Ill start a new thread once mock up begins, there's not to many 62 valiants out there with boosted big blocks.
Bill im still waiting on some video of the beast................
Aaron
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srixon4406 said:
Thanks Bill im almost ready to start the mock up stage i have a bare block and im going to gut a trans and start the mock up. Once i get the turbo headers fabbed up the rest should go pretty easy. Ill start a new thread once mock up begins, there's not to many 62 valiants out there with boosted big blocks.
Bill im still waiting on some video of the beast................
Aaron
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Aaron,

That's some really good news! Keep us posted, for sure!!:glasses7:

I bought a new video camera, and as soon as this storm leaves us, and the strip opens, I'll put it to good use (the camera.)

Thank you for your continuing interest!!!! :D
 
Brandon Weaver said:
Personal opinion: Wiseco/K1 combo is overpriced and overrated. All they (or any other company for that matter) had to do was make a simple forged piston, but they made a $1000 piston/rod combo that you can't use one without the other. :violent1:

Alternative: https://www.flatlanderracing.com/index.html (Rebuild kits section in sidebar>High performance rebuild kit>Chrysler) $970 for pretty much EVERYTHING except for a cam, and the pistons are custom forged ones with thin metric rings being a $130 option.

Couple of other things, why are 220,000psi studs so much more special than 200k ones? Cuz ARP has the 200k ones in stock, and most likely it'd be more economical than having a custom set made.

And... a 9.1 compression would be pretty close to the last thing I'd want if I were building a boosted slant, and apparently others feel the same because if I remember correctly, Tom runs a CUSTOM piston with his K1 rods that puts him somewhere around low 8s, maybe even high 7s. Pretty sure I read that over on the turbo forums.
Another runs a .100 copper gasket to lower compression. Are you sure Ryan really runs a 9:1?

Oh, and What do you mean? Does it have 'BH' stamped somewhere on the block? Those are the only 'best' blocks that I know of, supposed to have thicker walls. Heads (as long as they don't have the dimple in the chamber) are really just a matter of preferrance as far as I know. Some like the drool-tube with its lighter weight and more spark plug choices, some like the peanut head for its ability to be ported out more and not leak from the spark plug tubes.
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Yeah it's got BH right after the casting number. The head I'll be using will be a drool tube.
 
Matts440 said:
Instead of o ring the block wouldn't a good multi layer head gasket be just as good? Call cometic and see if they make a head gasket. On my boosted engine my srt4 never had to o ring and held over 20psi and street driven all the time and always hitting 20psi, and race tune turned ot up to 30 with no problems course I agree and get head studs 100%.
Click to expand...

I'd much rather o ring the block and be safe, just in case I want to go over 30psi.
 
Landons65Dart said:
I'd much rather o ring the block and be safe, just in case I want to go over 30psi.
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The Isky tool is easy to use and pretty much "fool-proof"... and is reasonable, I think.

I have ten thumbs, and had no problem... One cutter blade is sufficient for this operation, I found.
 
Brandon Weaver said:
"Couple of other things, why are 220,000psi studs so much more special than 200k ones? Cuz ARP has the 200k ones in stock, and most likely it'd be more economical than having a custom set made."

I just went to the Summit online catalog and found this ad for the 225 slant six studs:

"Pro series cylinder head studs from ARP are cold-forged to ensure molecular integrity. They are heat-treated prior to thread rolling and machining and are rated at a whopping 220,000 psi. ARP Pro series kits are also available with 12-point nuts, and all kits come complete with hardened parallel washers for an even load distribution and accurate torque readings."

Part number #142-491 $101.95. I think we paid more than that... so, apparently, prices have come down. :cheers:

I called Tom Wolfe, and you are 100% keyrect about his utilizing a custom Wiseco piston with lower compression when used with K-1 rods, which he also uses. You were also right about the measured compression ratio on his engine with those pistons; he said it was about 8:1. So, I was in error on his setup. I asked him about my 9:1 pistons and he said he thought it should be fine for my race-only application since I was not going to attempt to run it on pump gas (93 octane,) mixing that gas 50/50 with higher octane (110?) race gas, watching my A/F ratio closely at 11.5:1 under boost, and limiting my spark advance to 18 degrees (locked plate.) I hope he's right... he usually is.

I was apparently wrong about Ryan Peterson't pistons too; they are reportedly TRW's, but I don't know what compression ratio they are, or whether they are the old-design "Speed Pro TRW" pistons. Surely, they are,but I was under the impression that those forged pistons had been deleted from the TRW catalog years ago, and were no longer available.... so, I dunno; maybe I'll call Summit and ask them.

I apologize for all the bad information; I'll try to be more accurate in the future. Thanks for the correction(s.:eek:ops:
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Bill Dedman said:
[

I just went to the Summit online catalog and found this ad for the 225 slant six studs:

"Pro series cylinder head studs from ARP are cold-forged to ensure molecular integrity. They are heat-treated prior to thread rolling and machining and are rated at a whopping 220,000 psi. ARP Pro series kits are also available with 12-point nuts, and all kits come complete with hardened parallel washers for an even load distribution and accurate torque readings."

Part number #142-491 $101.95. I think we paid more than that... so, apparently, prices have come down. :cheers:

I called Tom Wolfe, and you are 100% keyrect about his utilizing a custom Wiseco piston with lower compression when used with K-1 rods, which he also uses. You were also right about the measured compression ratio on his engine with those pistons; he said it was about 8:1. So, I was in error on his setup. I asked him about my 9:1 pistons and he said he thought it should be fine for my race-only application since I was not going to attempt to run it on pump gas (93 octane,) mixing that gas 50/50 with higher octane (110?) race gas, watching my A/F ratio closely at 11.5:1 under boost, and limiting my spark advance to 18 degrees (locked plate.) I hope he's right... he usually is.

I was apparently wrong about Ryan Peterson's pistons too; they are reportedly TRW's, but I don't know what compression ratio they are, or whether they are the old-design "Speed Pro TRW" pistons. Surely, they are,but I was under the impression that those forged pistons had been deleted from the TRW catalog years ago, and were no longer available.... so, I dunno; maybe I'll call Summit and ask them.

I apologize for all the bad information; I'll try to be more accurate in the future. Thanks for the correction(s.):eek:ops:
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Once again, I am disseminating erroneous information, but this time, it's not my fault. I called the tech line at Summit and got a tech who was willing to look up the stud issue and he told me that the blurb about these studs being 220,000psi material was on ALL the ARP informational blurbs, and was NOT true in this (225) case. He said that they were 200,000psi, just as you said, Brandon. He said he'd notify the management there, and get that as copy changed. We'll see...

Then I asked him whether TRW was still offering a "Power Forged" forged piston for the 225 slant six (or, ANY slant six, for that matter,) and he looked it up and reported that, no, none was available.

So, there is the word from the horse's mouth...

Sorry for all the confusion!:banghead:
 
Bill Dedman said:
Once again, I am disseminating erroneous information, but this time, it's not my fault. I called the tech line at Summit and got a tech who was willing to look up the stud issue and he told me that the blurb about these studs being 220,000psi material was on ALL the ARP informational blurbs, and was NOT true in this (225) case. He said that they were 200,000psi, just as you said, Brandon. He said he'd notify the management there, and get that as copy changed. We'll see...

Then I asked him whether TRW was still offering a "Power Forged" forged piston for the 225 slant six (or, ANY slant six, for that matter,) and he looked it up and reported that, no, none was available.

So, there is the word from the horse's mouth...

Sorry for all the confusion!:banghead:
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:cheers: S'all good! lol I'd hate to know how many times I've been wrong. Sorry I didn't post when I seen it on my lunch I could have stopped you on the pistons :) They have been discontinued for years. Ryan either got his NOS, or, if it's the engine I think it is, it's a possibility he bought them new in the 90's :shock: They'd be stock comp height most likely, somewheres of high 7, low 8's as well. Tom's right though, 9:1 would probably be good with 50/50 93/110 and a sweet tune.

I was surprised a little when you said the studs were 220k, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it was just a blanket type statement.

Also, there's a group buy that WAS in the forming over at .org for the 220k studs, pretty sure it fell apart when this was found out:
ball park prices are $250 per set at the 5 set order and just under $200 for the 15 set order. 6-8 week lead time
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HOWEVER this was also mentioned
Before they made sets specifically for the slant 6 we used the set made for the 455 Oldsmobile, maybe they offer the higher strength steel for that application.
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I guess if it is really a priority, one could look into it.

Oh, and for those of you that mentioned MLS, here's the word on the street on that: http://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57083
 
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