It's gotta be chicken wire.. Mama doesn't like it when you take the screen door apart for body work
Are body guys still using lead?
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Woody500
Well-Known Member
Indy car fabricators Bill Finley and son Tom(Vatis Racing Ayr-Way Specials & more) restored Toms' red Barracuda Trans-Am one winter, and used PPGs' aluminum metal bondo(believe called Allmetal)on every rust patch they repaired(many). We all lived in Indianapolis so rust was extensive, holes in trunk floor etc, and all other E-body rust that you know about.
They did very nice work & you couldn't tell, even trunk floor looked perfect. But not many years later rust was a'poppin everywhere, so Tom sold it after owning & daily driving it for at least 15 yrs total.
It turns out the dissimilar metals had linked made a battery & so electrolysis had caused rust to come back much too quickly.
PPG no longer has any metallic Bondo for sale that I could find with a quick search.
So use metallic fillers At Your Own Risk!
None for me, thanks!
Which brings to mind that the proper lead alloy should be researched and used, IF using lead, for flexibility, and electrolytic action, too. And proper Flux choice needed & then well cleaned after job is done to eliminate that source of corrosion, too.
Brazing flux also bad for corrosion, & hard to clean off, after welding.
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Yes, we know the factory way of doing it with metal failed and we know that that fiberglass repair failed . That's why I only do a profeesional job and treat and seal to prevent a metal or fiberglass fail.
Woody500
Well-Known Member
Try aluminum gutter screens, it gives you better(more) electrolysis.
Treat and seal the rust? I'm not a body guy but I think that even if you cut all the rust areas out, any place where metal is connnected, or edges of metal where the rust was cut out, will rust anyway....Yes, we know the factory way of doing it with metal failed and we know that that fiberglass repair failed . That's why I only do a profeesional job and treat and seal to prevent a metal or fiberglass fail.
Yes, getting it back to factory condition is getting back to a failed situation. There is no argument as the OP has shown what happens to factory condition. Treating and sealing along with proper venting goes a long ways and other areas of the car where no repairs have been made can also be made more resistant to the elements . My opinion is that the preventive steps are far more a factor than what material is used for repairs.
But I've seen cars in the junkyards that are totally rusted out, but the leaded seam connections are still glistening in the sun, undamaged at all...
Or keep the car in the garage
A long time buddy has been a body man over 30 plus years uses the duraglass/ bondo mix calling it a butchers blend. He as well as what Ole Junkyard was describing is a concoction they came up with in the body world. Tricks of the trade from........Body man tricks............ Texas Red
340six
King Of Bling
It's what the cool kids do.
No, this isn't correct. They didn't form a battery in the trunk with the metal filler, and that's not what caused the damage.
Using body filler on a trunk floor where moisture is going to sit, and then being in a rust prone area, caused the rust. I don't know anything about their prep work, I wasn't there, so I won't comment on that. But using filler on a trunk floor is asking for failure. Hell I don't know why you'd do that to begin with, I don't see any legitimate reason to use filler there.
Metal-2-Metal and All-Metal are still made. They've been around for 40+ years now, minimum. I've been using metal-2 metal for 30+ years. 100889 - Metal-2-Metal, Quart - ITW Evercoat US Chemical 14060.Q01 US Chemical All-Metal Repair Compounds | Summit Racing
My '56 Austin Healey, which my father built for me when I was born, has Metal-2-Metal filler under its 45+ year old lacquer paint. The first bodywork I ever did, on a car in my old man's shop when I was in junior high, has m2m filler and still wears its original paint 30+ years later. And has a concourse gold medal too, despite being my first bodywork.
All body work requires the proper prep for whatever it is. Metal fillers, plastic fillers, lead or lead free body solder, brazing flux, etc. If you don't do the proper prep, and in some cases the proper after-prep by neutralizing the flux, your work will fail.
That's the bottom line. Whatever filler or repair process you choose, follow the damn prep instructions. Rusty metal has to be cut out and replaced with good metal. Filler needs the proper surface prep and finish to get proper adhesion. Any acids used in the flux or tinning process have to be neutralized. Primer sealer has to be applied to seal the bodywork.
If you don't to the proper prep, or use fillers in places they're not supposed to be, the work will fail. Which is why any body man worth their salt would never use screen and fiberglass to repair anything. Ever. For any reason. It's not how any of those things are supposed to be used.
Yeah treating and sealing rust is usually a fools errand. The only way to be sure is to cut it all out entirely.
You can neutralize rust (typically with a phosphoric acid based treatment) and then coat it with something like POR15, which seals it in. As long as the rust isn't exposed to oxygen, it won't continue its chemical reaction (it's oxidation!). The problem is, nothing stays sealed forever. Cars flex, are exposed to damage, chips, scratches, etc. And nothing is perfect, keeping oxygen out at the molecular level isn't easy.
So yeah, you can treat rust in a pinch, seal it up and keep things from getting worse for awhile. But eventually if you seal rust in you'll have to go back and remove it. The only sure-fire way to be done for any length of time is to cut it out, replace the metal with metal, and properly prep and seal the area with a good primer sealer and paint.
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In other words- Since there is probably a certain amount of surface rust on every surface that isn't normally seen , the only way to do the job right is to cut all the metal out completely, like the gentleman said.
I think I need a drink or something,
I think I need a drink or something,
340six
King Of Bling
I have added Missouri to the list of places you should not drink the waterIn other words- Since there is probably a certain amount of surface rust on every surface that isn't normally seen , the only way to do the job right is to cut all the metal out completely, like the gentleman said.
I think I need a drink or something,
jokes on you, we ain't got no screen doors-- i already done took 'em for recycle! gotta make that money!
yup. that's how they all look after a few years. now imagine if they had cut that out and repaired it properly with metal on the first go around. the rot wouldn't be anywhere near as severe and widespread.
instead of just lowers, now it's gonna need a full 1/4
You don't know when the factory design failed so hard to tell how long doing the same thing over would have lasted. The fiberglass job on it certainly wasn't done " properly " so it would be hard to tell what would have lasted longer - a good fiberglass repair or back to factory.
Yeah you ever tried welding galvanized there stud? Or, maybe you have, and that would explain some things.
You can't do fiberglass repairs properly on metal bodywork. It's not possible, no one that even does professional fiberglass work would tell you to do that. No one that does professional metal work would tell you that. Hell no one that does ANY professional car repair would tell you that.
And yes, we know how the factory design failed. They trap dirt and junk in the quarter drop offs, which then hold moisture, which causes rust. Further, the paint coverage in those areas from the factory was minimal at best. So yeah, 50 years later most of these cars need lower quarter patches.
So you CUT OUT THE RUSTY METAL, you weld in clean, well prepped metal, and you use a good primer sealer on everything. And you're good for another 50+ years.
Or you use fiberglass and screen, and your work falls off in chunks after a few years.
So now that's been addressed, can we take the thread back to helping people that want to try to do the proper lead work on the factory seams? Because that's what was happening here, we were trying to help a couple of members do their own work on their own cars the proper, factory way.
aluminum gutter screens!? calm down there Rockefeller!
i'll just keep nicking the bird wire from my neighbors coop. he's an old drunk that uses that mess on lake barges he repairs so it's not like he'll miss it.
fixed that for ya! ;D
" And yes, we know how the factory design failed. "
" ...we were trying to help a couple of members do their own work on their own cars the proper, factory way. "
I'm telling ya, I don't know if a drink will help much.
" ...we were trying to help a couple of members do their own work on their own cars the proper, factory way. "
I'm telling ya, I don't know if a drink will help much.
Woody500
Well-Known Member
72biuNblu:
You obviously have no inkling what electrolysis is, or choose to ignore it.
It means dissimilar metals have electrons flowing between them, which is also the definition of a BATTERY! IE; gold very high on list & loses very few atoms and Zinc low on list and loses a lot(corrosion).
I totally agree with you on the rest, prep is key and sealing anything never lasts forever.
And I'm sure tha Finleys' used the proper sealing methods, as the Local Area PPG sales Rep, a Mr Padgett was their good friend & former crew member for Vatis Racing, and a long time employee of Arrow Supply Company, the PPG distributor in Indianapolis.
Padgett handled the PPG Indycar program, making sure the participants had everything they needed, including proper instructions & materials, no matter what jobs we were doing.
Once again NO METAL BASED FILLERS FOR ME!
You obviously have no inkling what electrolysis is, or choose to ignore it.
It means dissimilar metals have electrons flowing between them, which is also the definition of a BATTERY! IE; gold very high on list & loses very few atoms and Zinc low on list and loses a lot(corrosion).
I totally agree with you on the rest, prep is key and sealing anything never lasts forever.
And I'm sure tha Finleys' used the proper sealing methods, as the Local Area PPG sales Rep, a Mr Padgett was their good friend & former crew member for Vatis Racing, and a long time employee of Arrow Supply Company, the PPG distributor in Indianapolis.
Padgett handled the PPG Indycar program, making sure the participants had everything they needed, including proper instructions & materials, no matter what jobs we were doing.
Once again NO METAL BASED FILLERS FOR ME!
just as you don't know when the factory design "failed" there is no way to tell whether that "job" was done "properly" or not. unless you did it. which, by account of seeing bird wire, glass and bondo i suppose it could be a remote possibility?
i'm not a betting man, but i'd lay good money on a metal "factory" style repair lasts well over whatever allotted time you'd consider acceptable is for a fiberglass repair.
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