Bell Never Aligned

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I8NEMO

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My fit up on this build has expanded to actually driving the car a bit before final tear down. Actually driving the car before tear down wasn't always the plan so when I took on the 8 Barrel Hood idea, the 340 went in the car along with the A833 for support reasons only. I used my factory bell housing off the old 318 and, in complete ignorance of BH alignment, relied on the dowels and away I went. Then I decided to run the new motor so trans came back, in went the flywheel. No clutch, no pilot bushing. Now FF to today, clutch on the way, correct .915 bushing on the way. After reading many posts here I feel I have 0 chance of the tranny fitting up with a clutch and bushing because I didn't align the BH. What percentage would you give me?
 
I’d give a 100% chance of the gearbox going right in if you align the clutch disc properly. I would also give you a 50% chance of killing the front input bearing and seal along with shifting problems if you don’t dial that bell in.
 
Best to do with engine out? I read in a thread of an alignment tool that mounts at trans. hole in BH, maybe start with that. Seems the motors gotta at least drop or come out to loosen BH bolts. I'll get under there soon.
Thanks guys
 
I run a magnetic base on the flywheel and indicate off the input retainer hole in the bellhousing. I don't think it matters if the engine is in or out. Easier to turn, but doable either way. Measure what you have, then decide if it is worth getting it closer.
 
Percentage? I'd say not near 50% failure. Probably single digits. There has been THOUSANDS of swaps of engines to bells WITHOUT alignment. This does not mean that various wear points have not been aggravated. It is a good idea to check this, especially the higher performance the build.

Think about "rebuilt short blocks" back in the day. Not just these cars, but trucks/ pickups. You get a rebuilt and you "throw" it in there and run it.
 
Percentage? I'd say not near 50% failure. Probably single digits. There has been THOUSANDS of swaps of engines to bells WITHOUT alignment. This does not mean that various wear points have not been aggravated. It is a good idea to check this, especially the higher performance the build.

Think about "rebuilt short blocks" back in the day. Not just these cars, but trucks/ pickups. You get a rebuilt and you "throw" it in there and run it.
I wonder if the factory checked alignment? I bet not.
 
I run a magnetic base on the flywheel and indicate off the input retainer hole in the bellhousing. I don't think it matters if the engine is in or out. Easier to turn, but doable either way. Measure what you have, then decide if it is worth getting it closer.
What's the set up procedure? I have never checked it.
 
I wonder if the factory checked alignment? I bet not.
I have always thought my 440-6 was poor alignment. If you are familiar, the 70 B bodies came with that dammed "scalloped" clutch which puts the disk edge in very close proximity to the mounting ears. "Any" little fuzz on the outer edge of the disk will drag on the ears and not release clean. That thing never shifted all that great and seemed like every time I had it apart, the pilot was worn bad. I'm am not a guy who sat in traffic with the clutch released
 
Not sure if the factory checked them or not but the procedure and run out amount it is in the factory shop manual.
 
I just did this this past week. I was switching from a factory bellhousing to a scattershield. The scattershield (checked with a dial indicator on a magnetic base) was was out .050 side to side and .013 up and down. I made a set of offset dowel pins on my lathe and it was too much offset (.030). I turned the new dowel pins in the block and just couldn’t get it right. Then I decided to put the stock dowel pins back in and indicate in the original bellhousing and it was out .060 up and down but only .015 side to side. I took all that off, made another set of offset dowel pins with .015 offset and installed them and the scattershield. I got it to .003 offset side to side and .007 up and down. After putting it on and out about a dozen times I decided to leave it there and marked the new pins in case I ever removed the bellhousing again I wouldn’t waste a bunch of time trying to dial it back in again. Once done, we took the car out and it works great. Hope these numbers can help you in some way.
 
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The factory finished machined the hole in the bell housing after it was attached to the block. If there was any other way you would see offset bushings in blocks. Other than that I’m not sure what the procedure was.
How does this explain automatics?
 
the amount of offset that you are likely, I said Likely, to encounter, will not matter to the pilot bushing nor to the input bearing.
But, this misalignment is multiplied the further it gets from the centerline of the crankshaft. That means that by the time it gets to the clutch, clutch departure has to be increased to prevent the thing from dragging and causing difficult selection of gears; especially first and reverse; and it overworks the brass rings. No big deal for most guys to run extra departure.
But the real loser is the hub of the disc that, which, in gear, has to constantly flex back and forth every revolution; with the disc clamped and restricting that flexing. Eventually the hub gives up.

Of the few bells that I have had indicated,(maybe 10 or 12) they were never out by much, and could have been sent. I have not absolutely had to correct any of them; Except my own.... because I was looking for a quality shift at 7200.

The thing is, unless you do the thing, you won't know it's out until after the trans is installed and been field-tested................ and even then, you may not realize what the shifting problem is. Yo may just blame it on the A833 cuz everybody says they are slow-shifting.
Well I can tell you that, properly set-up, the A833 can shift like lightning; even at 7200. And it all starts with a minimum departure, which means that the crank and trans centerlines have to be on the same axis.
IMO; there are only two excuses for a lazy shifting A833; 1) ignorance in not knowing what to do about it, and 2) laziness to do what needs to be done.
 
I wondered as well, assumed they did.
The factory did not check crank centerline to the transmission pilot diameter and they used normal round dowel pins.
How could they get by with that?
1) the factory had the advantage of all new parts, virgin dowel pin holes. The stack up at tolerance extremes should still function. Most vehicle assembly plants back in the day, and still today have an audit program where they pull a final assembly and then subject it to a full disassembly and inspection. They use that to keep tabs on items like pilot bore alignment, crankshaft end play, piston protrusion/recession, valve guide clearance. All those items that are the result of the stack up of tolerances, but are not verified on every engine.
2) and if the pilot shaft alignment was off, remember most new car warranties back in the 60’s and 70’s was two years and 24000 miles. Mopar went a bit further with their 5/50. The car would be out of warranty before anything catastrophic happened.
3) and if it did, that is why there is a checking procedure in the FSM.
 
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The best way to resolve any misalignment issues is match the Block and Bellhousing in a fashion that coincides with your Crankshaft centerline and that's most accurate with a line bore type fixture. It's above my pay grade as to the tooling needed but that's far more accurate than doing it in a car or even an assembled engine...

I did an in-car once and it help alleviate a 1-2 shift issue but I never felt I was accurate enough with it and had I went back through that motor project the machine shop was going to centerline it. This was also with a blowproof Bellhousing also..

JW
 
The best way to resolve any misalignment issues is match the Block and Bellhousing in a fashion that coincides with your Crankshaft centerline and that's most accurate with a line bore type fixture. It's above my pay grade as to the tooling needed but that's far more accurate than doing it in a car or even an assembled engine...

I did an in-car once and it help alleviate a 1-2 shift issue but I never felt I was accurate enough with it and had I went back through that motor project the machine shop was going to centerline it. This was also with a blowproof Bellhousing also..

JW
Having a crankcase ‘align bored’ has nothing to do with the alignment of a flywheel housing pilot bore to a crankshaft centerline.
 
It's always a pleasure to get help here, by reading many replies it's awesome to see and understand the years of experience and technical knowledge many of you posses.

Much Thanks!
 
I wonder if the factory checked alignment? I bet not.
I read that the center bore was line honed after the bell was installed, ensuring alignment to the block. Any replacement bell housing will likely be off center by some amount. Whether it is enough to cause problems, that is up to debate.
 
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