Brake Improvements - Looking for thoughts

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72Duster440

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72 Duster 440, 4 Speed 215s up front and 315s put back.

For front brakes I am running the SSBC 11" 4 piston disc conversion, which I think just use KH calipers, with their upgraded pads, it have a set of Power Stop pads ready to install.

A153 Front Disc Brake Conversion Kit, Mopar Non Power


For rear brakes I am running the Dr Diff 10.7" Cobra disc conversion with Powerstop pads.

Mopar 10.7" Rear Disc Brake Kit


I have the 15/16" non-power master from Dr Diff as well and do not run a prop valve.

Mopar Aluminum Master Cylinder Kit


The brakes don't seem to bite as good as I feel like they should. I am not able to lock them up, I'm not sure if my leg is too weak, or the brakes aren't working at 100%. Slowing down from 60 seems to take forever and almost has the feeling of glazed over pads, which they are not.

I have bled them multiple times, and there are no leaks. I'm not sure what to do to improve the braking. I don't feel like I should need a bigger setup, but maybe my parts are mismatched?




Anything I should look into to improve their performance?
 
the first thing that jumps out to me is that you can't lock 'em up.

i'll be at the front of the line to say that i don't care for the ssbc systems, but that should provide adequate braking and at least lock up a little bit. did you properly bed in the pads? if not, it's certainly possible that they're glazed out.

are you sure you've got the master hooked up correctly? i seem to remember some of the "aftermarket" ones having the ports switched, especially for disc specific applications. i dunno, maybe i dreamt that while high on peyote or something.

anyway, i'm gonna throw out a WAG and say it's probably a component mismatch or there's a hard part that needs adjustment-- push rod isn't correct, pedal angle is jamming something up, etc.
 
The pads were properly bed, when I switch to the Power Stop pads, I'll make sure to follow their procedure.

I don't expect to lock up the rears since they are 315mm wide ET Streets, the fronts are 215 BFG GForce Comp TAs, a grippy tire.

I had read that too about the master, I currently have it hooked up with the rear pot (closest to firewall) connected to the front brakes, which I think I read on Kern Dogs thread was correct for this Dr Diff master.

I am using an adjutable pushrod and I don't run out of pedal travel when pushing them.

I measured pressure at the calipers and I want to say the fronts saw ~1300psi and the rears were closer to ~1000. It's been a while (years) since I measured it, so I might not be remembering exactly.
 
yeah, i'd say try the power stops and then reevaluate where you are.

you should still be able to lock the fronts up though. the rear discs should be enough to haul down that tire too. and those pressures seem in line with what would be considered an acceptable range.

is there any peripheral components in line that may be affecting the flow/performance: metering block, bump valve, etc? are the drops rubber or SS aftermarkets?

this may be a case where you need a bigger master because you need to move more fluid. but that's a whole bunch of math i don't want to do.
 
I have a 68 Barracuda, 367/4-speed/3.55s/ at 3650 pounds/me in it.
In the back are 295/50-15 on 10x2 drums, also no proportioning.
In the front are 235/60-14s on KH 4-pot calipers on something like 10.7 discs
The master is a 15/16 Disc/drum; On the back are 15/16 w/c's
the Booster is off a 73>75 Dart.
The front hoses are braided, the rear is a stocker, the hard lines are 1968,
and all tires are BFG-TA's, all pads and shoes are stock Mopar replacements.

This car for a streeter, stops amazing well, like I imagine throwing out a parachute at ludicrous-speed might feel like. I mean slam your face into the dash if I don't warn the passenger. Nobody wants to ride with me anymore so I took the rear seat right out. She easily locks the front brakes at 20 mph.

Soooooo about the only thing different is that your Duster is a lil lighter.
So what's different?

If your pedal is hard, high when braking, does not sink under your foot, and you cannot sense any spongyness, then the hydraulics are fine.
Your friction materials should be fine.
AFAI can tell, that leaves maybe two things.

1) are you braking with trans still in gear?
If yes, does your car nose-dive when you take your foot off the gas-pedal; which with a 440/manual trans, it should do. If your engine is slow to return to idle and you are trying to brake the car with the trans still in gear, then your brakes are gonna be trying to slow the engine down too! That's a bad situation. Yur not doing that, ........ are you?
I mean if your engine has 185psi CCP or more, like mine once did, I hardly even need the brakes, as just lifting off the throttle, slows the car fairly well.
2) mechanical issues. Like as if the pads are not dead-FLAT, or are not in full contact with the discs during braking, or not free to move in the brackets, or free to retract off the discs, or the Park-brake is not adjusted right, or the hoses are rotten and/or flexing, or like JYH suggests, maybe the lines are reversed off the M/C, altho, without any proportioning it might not make a difference.
NORMALLY,
the frontmost chamber, nearest the rad, is plumbed to the rear brakes.
If you are using a gutted factory MOPAR combination valve, make sure the shuttle valve is centered and the brake-warning lamp works, and is off.

Here's a simple test;
Find a hundred yards of slightly dirty concrete road with no traffic. Have a friend stand off to the side to watch your tires. Then, Run up to it at 10 mph and hit the brakes hard enough to get at least both of the front tires skidding. If your helper sees all tires skid, great! Hit it again at 15 then 20. By 20, the rear brakes should not be skidding any more.
If the rears always skid, regardless of what the front is doing, that's bad, and has to be changed.
If the fronts cannot be caused to skid, at all, that is also bad.
If no tires skid at all, holy crap! that's terrible.
In your case IDK which is worse, lol.
BTW, IMHO, an all-disc car should have a good working booster.


Here's a some clues and stuff.
Firstly; Inside the M/C are installed two power-pistons, with a hydraulic chamber between them . When you step on the pedal, you are moving the piston nearest the firewall. The Frontmost piston is Not physically connected to the rear one. Instead, if you bench-bled the M/C correctly, and it is full of fluid, then the frontmost piston will be forced to move ahead by the advancing rearmost piston, by hydraulic coupling.
Each of those pistons, is gonna drive fluid down the line just a short distance.
When the M/C is plumbed correctly, the Frontmost piston will be driving fluid into the rear circuit, while the rear-most piston just slides right on by, but not past, the port to the front caliper pistons. When the rear pads finally sit on the rear rotors, this stops the frontmost power piston from moving. The rearmost piston is now ready to move fluid into the front-brake circuit. As you continue pushing, the rearmost piston drives fluid into the front calipers and the pads move out to the rotors.
Until now no braking action has occurred. But now everything is read to go to work; and you feel it as the pedal goes hard, with about an inch of travel so far.
Continued force by your leg, now increases the fluid pressure, which squeezes the pads ever harder onto the rotors. Stopping follows.
That's how it is supposed to work.
>One of the things that sometimes causes problems is too much wheel-bearing clearance. If the rotors are allowed to flop around even a little, they will drive the pistons down into their bores, away from the rotors. So then on the next brake application, the Power-piston has to waste time and pedal travel, to push the caliper pistons back into position.
The caliper-Pistons are supposed to be retracted by the square-section O-rings, which get stretched a lil on every brake application. When you lift off the pedal, the O-rings are supposed to pull the pistons off the pads just a couple of thousands, so they don't drag. Eventually, as the pads wear, the O-rings slip, just a lil.
But, if the bearings are too tight, then possibly the O-rings cannot do the work. I run my bearings on the loose end of the scale so that "knock-back" assists with pulling the pads back. I never notice the additional pedal travel.
> With just a 15/16 M/C bore, there is not much fluid travel on pedal application; whereas with 4-pistons on each side, those calipers require quite a bit of charging-fluid, if the pistons are knocked back too far. But you will recognize this when it happens because the pedal-travel continually increases.
> Now, I want to mention one thing that happened to me on the job, a long long time ago, on an all-disc car.
I couldn't bleed the fronts. The rears bled fine and even worked! without the fronts. But I just couldn't get fluid down the front lines. In desperation, I opened the rear bleeders and down went the pedal. Ok fine, I bled the Fronts, then the Rears and all was well in the world. Car braked perfect so I sent it, and never saw it again.
I'll tell you the truth; To this day, IDK why this happened and in ten years of being a General-mechanic, at that shop, it never happened again.
Just maybe, you're number 2. :(
 
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1 inch master is stock for KH front disk. 15/16 master gives more pressure to the calipers.

The pressures front to rear without a proportioning valve should be the same.

My dart has 215 70 14 tires all 4 corners.

I can't say I have tried to lockup the fronts but the brakes are much different than my other power brake modern (1996 and 2006) cars.

Realistically you don't want to lock up the brakes.

They will stop you the fastest they can just before they lockup. Plus you will still have control.
 
Check out the friction coefficient of the brake pads. If you have 'race' type pads, they might not bite until they get really hot. Not good for street use.
 
The pedal is hard and sits at the top of the travel, there is no spongyness to it when I start to brakes. The hardliners are about 2 years old and the flex lines are all braided stainless, also just a couple years old. I do have a line lock on the front circuit, I could remove it and see if there is a difference. I do not know the compound on the front pads currently as SSBC no longer lists an upgrade pad on their site.

The power stop pads I bought are their Z26 street warrior pads, I'll have to look, but I don't think they are meant for track use or need heat in them.

The parking brake is not dragging, however when I do go in reverse, I can hear a pad rubbing slightly.

When I am braking heavy to test them, I have the clutch pushed in, so it is not trying to bring the engine down too. And when I take my foot off the gas, there is a good amount of engine braking prior to disengaging the clutch.

I'll try to measure stopping distance this weekend to see how far it takes, but it feels like they aren't grabbing when in a panic stop, like it just pushing through the brakes. It eventually stops, but you don't get the feeling that you should when slamming on the brakes, like it just feels like a gradual deceleration, not a push you up against your seat belt feeling.
 
You should have more than enough braking for street driving. Main reason for bigger brakes is to handle the heat of high speed constant braking eg.. In the corners. Normal street driving with the odd panic stop even stock drum brakes should be fine.
 
Nice car, by the way, 440 ?
You've certainly researched, and seem to have covered all the bases right down to braided hoses. Good job.
2 thoughts, no personal knowledge, slight chance, there was a pedal assembly with a different ratio pedal, doubt it.
The second is the pad composite, curious how the other pads feel.
As mentioned, you appear to have excellent equipment, and should have fine brakes.
If all is right, and as it should be, my next move would be more line pressure by smaller bore Master.
By rule, for imports - I am currently running 4 piston finned alum calipers, 1 1/2" ish pistons, and drum rears 3/4 whl/cyls.
I use an Ottosun (asian) 3/4" master cylinder mostly now.
One of our members posts mentioned going to an adapter to the 2 bolt master, that said he tried a 15/16 and smaller piston, perhaps he will pipe in, he's very active here.
In a previous life I built late-model stock cars and super modifieds with GM parts, and used a Corvette 3/4" 4 whl disc master on big single piston calipers, they worked well.
Volume of fluid really isn't an issue as the disc rotors merely relax, not really retracting more than a few thousands each piston.
AJ is really quick with math in his head, a smaller diameter piston by 1/16 is very small volume, and the travel isn't an issue either, unless untrue rotors knock the pistons back, then a quick pump may be required.
There also some members deep into expensive options that appear to have a lotta knowledge .
Good luck, I follow with interest .
 
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Yes, it's a 440, here's pic from cruising this weekend.

I was trying to look around on here for the pedal ratio to confirm, I have seen someone say it is 6.5:1, but when I threw a quick tape on mine, it was closer to 5.5:1, a little lower than what it should be for manual brakes. I'm currently running a 15/16", I went from a 1 1/16" to the 15/16 when I added the rear disc brakes. Through all of my different configurations, I can't say it's ever stopped all that well. The only piece that hasn't been replaced/upgraded is the front calipers. I'm almost wondering if there is crud in the crossover pipe on them preventing some fluid from flowing.

I used the calculators on Motion Race Works' website, and all of my numbers fall right in line with what they should be, the master is big enough to push the pistons, the pressures (which I am going to double check my numbers on) are in line with what they should be. I'm hoping bedding in a new set of fresh pads makes the difference. Maybe these got contaminated somehow.

Brake System Setup and Calculations

20240414_125649.jpg
 
Are the front caliper pistons metal or composite ?
Had a lotta trouble with composite pistons in some cases,
and aluminum caliper frames seizing up after sitting .( off-season ).
 
I just went out and measured (well attempted to) pressures.

Front left gave me 700psi under what I consider a normal pedal effort and 1400 under a panic stop
Front right gave me 800 and 1500, so those make sense.

I went to do the rear, removed the bleed screw, put my gauge in, and have zero brakes, pedal right to the floor.
I put the bleeder back in and left it cracked and pumped the brakes a half dozen times, nothing came out, tightened the bleeder back down and still nothing, right to the floor.

That tells me that I have a ton of air in the rear portion of the system, but so strange that the front could do 1500psi with a firm pedal, and then nothing. Or something is up with the master, as the pedal was rock solid when I checked the front pressures.
 
which potentially means the safety piston/shuttle valve will have flipped in the distribution block switching off the rears, and keeping full pressure available to the front.

most of the time they never move so when they do they can get stuck. there are 2 types one that locks out and the common in the USA one that doesn't.

undoing the collar where the wire plugs into the switch and tapping the unit usually seats the valve back where it should be.

US valves in distribution blocks have no lockout, they should not be getting stuck...! some later units and all used in australia (situated in the side of the girling style master cylinders they use) do have a lock out.
Once that safety piston has moved the only way to click it back is to remove the switch/wire unit by loosening its collar and pulling it out 1/4 inch, then put it back

in these days of globalisation and all stuff made in 1 factory but sold in different boxes
do you have a lockout one.?

US mopar is like a piston and detent ball set up it locks off the problem circuit each time the peddle is pressed.
Australian and some of europe its a piston with grooves and a lock pin end, on the sprung switch with wire to the dash light, that holds the piston in its lock off the rear or lock off the front position

does the red light on the dash work and come on when you press the brakes, that would indicate that the piston is moving to lock off the rears....if it stays on when you don't well the reason for that is explained above... :) (or you have the parking brake on)


Dave
 
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