Cam and carb selections

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Princess Valiant

A.K.A. Rainy Day Auto
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so working with a totally stock 1975 2
318.

There's two options for the carb.

2 bbl. Which consists of a 360 cast iron 2bbl manifold and a 2 barrel carb from a 68 383, so considerably bigger than a regular 318 2 barrel.

OR

carb and manifold from a 75 360 which is a 4 barrel thermoquad with the matched cast iron manifold.

Cam.: I don't even know where to start.

What's a good cam for a stock 75 318 that is intended to be used on the street. Should get decent fuel economy and will be used for long distance road trips.

I'm thinking stock 318/360 exhaust manifolds, dual exhaust and a 904 automatic. A Ford 8.8 will make its way in eventually because i despise the lack of rebuild parts and gear selections for a 7.25. The 8.8 will have 3.08 or possibly higher gear as this car is intended to see a lot of America's interstate highways and mountain passes of the Rocky mountains.

What's the fabo recipe?
 
I would Leave the Factory cam in there
After that, any carb, any intake, any logs but free-flowing exhaust.
After that, a 2600/2800 stall TC, and those 3.08s should be good, as would the Mopar ratios of 2.94 or less.
Then fix the sick factory timings.
If you really want a cam; one size up on the .050, but with faster ramps and solid lifters.

I ran this recipe,(with a 2800TC) with several different transmissions and with several different rear gears, for every winter from 2001 to 2004 or 2005; except I ran the Thermoquad and TTI headers with full-length 3" dual exhaust. That exhaust belonged to my 367, summer engine, so I just left it in there.
One winter I ran it with a Mopar 3+1 overdrive and a GVod behind that, and IIRC, with 3.23 rear gears. This gave me a double-overdrive and 65=1400rpm. I live on the prairies, so on the flat the 318LA had no problem pulling that.
The point is this, endow your engine with plenty of cylinder pressure, by keeping the current cam, or going to a solid-lifter design, and keep the rpm down, and give it about 50 or more degrees of cruise timing, and it will reward you with lots of mpg, while the 2600/2800TC will give you adequate off-the-line drive-away, especially with a 2800 and the TQ.

IMO a bigger hydraulic-lifter cam, will lower your cylinder pressure across the board, and with 3.08s you will not see a performance increase until say 35mph in first gear. Your cruise rpm with the 3.08s will be close to 65=2600rpm with 27" tires, so there is no problem with going to at least a 2600stall.
But with 3.08s your starter gear of 3.08 x2.45(A904) is just 7.55, so IMO, the 2800 will be a better choice for getting off the line.
The 3.08s will get you a nice passing gear of 60=3700 in Second, close to and just under the stock-cam power-peak. If it can breath, it will "fly". By 75 it will be up to ~4500ish and rapidly falling off the cam,so just about right.

If you had access to an A998, with ratios of 2.45-1.45-1.00, WITH a lock-up TC, I would recommend a 2800 TC, for extra hill-climbing power. Instead of pulling 55@at ~2300 (in Drive) with a stock-stall TC, the 2800 will come out of loc-up, and spool up another 500 rpm ,and find maybe 20/25 or more horsepower up there. Meaning, you don't have to downshift as often, if at all. I ran this combo with 3.55s and it was a lotta fun. But it wasn't that great on gas cuz,65 was almost 2800, in loc-up. Yes with stock hydro cam.

Good luck with whatever you decide, but my best advice is to NOT install a cam with a later-closing intake valve.
 
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TQ with stock cam and a good dual exhaust is a very punchy combo..... been there more than once.. LOL
 
A liberated Thermo Bog from a destitute CHP cruiser sure woke up a 340 :rolleyes:.
Funny thing, on Charlie the Swinger when I opened up the exhaust with headers etc. it sounded like it had a big lumpy camshaft even with the stock 2bbl. He did run well for a box stocker. When I improved the intake side he settled down to a more normal sound but did appreciate the extra fuel available to him.
 
How good are you tuning carburetors?
 
IMO skip the TQ unless you are a guru and already know how to tune one. It will cause headaches otherwise. At one point I had a stone stock bottom end 318 with a 904 and a cheap 2600 converter. Stock cam. On top was a street dominator Holley intake and a 3310 vacuum secondary Holley. Cheap swap meet headers and 2-1/2” dual exhaust. Stock diff and if I remember 2.76 gears. All in a 72 dart. That was a fun little engine and extremely reliable. Surprised a lot of people. I recently gave that engine away after it sat in my garage for 10 years and it’s still chugging along.
 
so working with a totally stock 1975 2
318.

There's two options for the carb.

2 bbl. Which consists of a 360 cast iron 2bbl manifold and a 2 barrel carb from a 68 383, so considerably bigger than a regular 318 2 barrel.

OR

carb and manifold from a 75 360 which is a 4 barrel thermoquad with the matched cast iron manifold.

Cam.: I don't even know where to start.

What's a good cam for a stock 75 318 that is intended to be used on the street. Should get decent fuel economy and will be used for long distance road trips.

I'm thinking stock 318/360 exhaust manifolds, dual exhaust and a 904 automatic. A Ford 8.8 will make its way in eventually because i despise the lack of rebuild parts and gear selections for a 7.25. The 8.8 will have 3.08 or possibly higher gear as this car is intended to see a lot of America's interstate highways and mountain passes of the Rocky mountains.

What's the fabo recipe?

Can always use the Mr Gasket adapter on a stock 318 2 bbl intake. Then you can put on your favorite Edelbrock 1406 electric choke carb. They run and start real nice on the 318s, with stock cams too.Then the 318 intake runners will match the ports on the 318 heads . . smooth port flow.

360 intake manilfolds on 318 heads leaves a big step there for the airflow trying to get into the 318 heads.

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Was able to run 20 miles per gallon, with the 2.94 gears with this setup on a stock 318.
 
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Rani, is this a true street car that should remain a mileage getter and sound quite, kind of like just a simple sprinkle of HP parts to enhance the over all package?
A car Mom and Dad get into and don’t know you jacked with it? A car the cops don’t even notice rolling on by?

Or are we looking for some added hot rod appeal?

As a start, for the 318, I like the Performer over the OE 360 intake. But if your just working with what you have, the OE 360/4 intake, it’ll be fine.

If you want to use a TQ, first it should be in excellent shape. If it is not and rebuilding it yourself is out, then look for the old over the counter replacement TQ carb with the electric choke. They also have the small primary up front. Make sure you use that thick OE gasket under the TQ!

A good replacement for the TQ is simply a Edelbrock 600 AVS. Find a small spacer/gasket to reduce heat to the carb!

I’m with @AJ/FormS on leaving the stock cam in there.
I’d be careful on up sizing the cam and I would look into “Mileage Cams” with a 112. This keeps idle smooth. Not super great on low end power. But it will sound and move the car like stock with more punch than stock.

Also on the exhaust. You just do a dual exhaust. Add in an H pipe, use a long case muffler and then on out to the tail pipe. That would be excellent. You’ll need nothing more.

Tell us, what car, rear end, gear & tire size are we working with here? This would be considered very important to the over all package and even more so a cam, which I don’t think you’ll need.... unless more power/torque is being sought.
 
Rani, is this a true street car that should remain a mileage getter and sound quite, kind of like just a simple sprinkle of HP parts to enhance the over all package?
A car Mom and Dad get into and don’t know you jacked with it? A car the cops don’t even notice rolling on by?

Or are we looking for some added hot rod appeal?

As a start, for the 318, I like the Performer over the OE 360 intake. But if your just working with what you have, the OE 360/4 intake, it’ll be fine.

If you want to use a TQ, first it should be in excellent shape. If it is not and rebuilding it yourself is out, then look for the old over the counter replacement TQ carb with the electric choke. They also have the small primary up front. Make sure you use that thick OE gasket under the TQ!

A good replacement for the TQ is simply a Edelbrock 600 AVS. Find a small spacer/gasket to reduce heat to the carb!

I’m with @AJ/FormS on leaving the stock cam in there.
I’d be careful on up sizing the cam and I would look into “Mileage Cams” with a 112. This keeps idle smooth. Not super great on low end power. But it will sound and move the car like stock with more punch than stock.

Also on the exhaust. You just do a dual exhaust. Add in an H pipe, use a long case muffler and then on out to the tail pipe. That would be excellent. You’ll need nothing more.

Tell us, what car, rear end, gear & tire size are we working with here? This would be considered very important to the over all package and even more so a cam, which I don’t think you’ll need.... unless more power/torque is being sought.
These days a dual exhaust is a no Brainer. Cheap, available and sound good, why wouldn't you.

The car is a 75 dart swinger. Being built as a budget build to make frequent runs from Denver to Albuquerque, so torque for mountain passes is important. These high altitude passes are brutal
 
These days a dual exhaust is a no Brainer. Cheap, available and sound good, why wouldn't you.

The car is a 75 dart swinger. Being built as a budget build to make frequent runs from Denver to Albuquerque, so torque for mountain passes is important. These high altitude passes are brutal

That is why you need the 4 bbl with the secondaries so you can open them up to get you over the mountain passes, no problem . . .
 
These days a dual exhaust is a no Brainer. Cheap, available and sound good, why wouldn't you.
IDK? That’s what I suggested.
The car is a 75 dart swinger. Being built as a budget build to make frequent runs from Denver to Albuquerque, so torque for mountain passes is important. These high altitude passes are brutal
Is the engine old? Stock from the factory?
 
A Comp Cam suggestion for upgrade power and torque in a long distance runner... Part#20-208-2

Advertised duration 252, @.050, 206 w/.425 lift on a 110.

This is just a single cam that I found off the shelf that would fit the bill though you could rummage around to see what other manufacturers have to offer.

I myself would not jump on the band wagon of the XE or other quick lift rate cams. They tend to be noisey according to many who use them here. If you wanted a split cam, 6* extra exhaust duration would do it well.
 
@rumblefish360
are you aware that Denver is at 5280ft?
Negative sir, but it is a height where all engines suffer low cylinder pressure.
according to the Wallace calculator;
The stock-cammed 318 with an Ica of 46* might make 138psi@800 ft.
By 5280ft that is predicted to drop to 115psi.
The cam I mentioned was given as an example of an upgraded cam. Please re read that I suggest listening to you on not changing the cam. Increasing power from the 318 via cam is more duration and lift. Spec it as you wish VooDoo Master! As far as I can tell, Rani isn’t into getting knee deep in cam specs and performance. But if you want to go there, then We might as well start milling the heads or replacing pistons.

No matter what you do cam wise, your going to drop cylinder pressure unless you start custom speck to a cam. I’ll watch how this unfolds right here. I’ll do mine (Cam specing) here at Sea level.

Take it away maestro!
:popcorn:
 
@rumblefish360
I had no intention of attacking your choice of cams, and still don't; I merely wished to point out the altitude problem in case you missed it.
And that is why I recommended to not change the cam Ica to more than it already is, namely ~46*. Which I did see that you agreed with.

@Princess Valiant
IMO, as to camshafts, if you want a lil more power at "normal-to-you" elevation...... in Colorado,
while simultaneously retaining torque at the higher elevation, your only solution, with a 318, is to increase the cylinder pressure. Normally, this means a higher Static Compression Ratio.
But we can cheat a bit, by closing the intake valve a lil sooner.
There are several ways to do that... but I gotta go to work right now, so;
to be continued later.I'm baaaack,lol.
Ok so, To close the intake earlier, you can either;
advance the current cam, or
swap to a shorter-period cams or
switch cam styles.
Which one I would do, if any at all,would depend on the elevation change you are anticipating. We already know Denver airport is at 5280. But what other elevations are you going to encounter? Albuquerque is listed at 5260. So that is a change of only 20 ft. But Wiki lists Colorado elevations from 3319@Arikaree River to 14433@Mt Elbert, with an average of about 6800.
Every 1000 ft change is worth one or two jet sizes.
Taken together, IMO, this could get tricky.
 
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@rumblefish360
I had no intention of attacking your choice of cams, and still don't; I merely wished to point out the altitude problem in case you missed it.
And that is why I recommended to not change the cam Ica to more than it already is, namely ~46*. Which I did see that you agreed with.

@Princess Valiant
Which one I would do, if any at all,would depend on the elevation change you are anticipating. We already know Denver airport is at 5280. But what other elevations are you going to encounter? Albuquerque is listed at 5260. So that is a change of only 20 ft. But Wiki lists Colorado elevations from 3319@Arikaree River to 14433@Mt Elbert, with an average of about 6800.
Every 1000 ft change is worth one or two jet sizes.
Taken together, IMO, this could get tricky.

My current altitude is 4800 when I go to my aunt's house in the mountains, her front door step is 10,500. My other aunt in tijeras, New Mexico is 6300. So Denver is probably the loose median.
 
I am starting the engine build. Beautiful inside and turned freely.

Bearings are 74 dated and do not look bad at all. The gaskets are oil soaked and crap.

The only thing I found so far is 3 or 4 cylinders had broken top rings but did not damage the walls nor inhibit the engine from turning freely.

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My current altitude is 4800 when I go to my aunt's house in the mountains, her front door step is 10,500. My other aunt in tijeras, New Mexico is 6300. So Denver is probably the loose median.

I have never been in your situation,so I just don't think I can be of any help to you.
Ima thinking you're gonna need to inject it, with computerized timing control.

I can tell you what I would try,
and others can tear it apart
fellas;you won't hurt my feelings.

Firstly, the cylinder pressure difference from 4800 to 10,500 is about 30psi. So in order for the 318 to not be a total slouch at 10,500 with correct jetting, the 30-psi down, pressure number, has to remain as high as possible. IMO at ~140psi, My 318 is already slouchy, but you may think otherwise.
But we have a problem at the other end.
With iron open chamber heads, you are limited to about 155psi for 89 gas, and plus/minus 5 psi either way for 91/87 gas. Closed chambers will allow about 5 psi more.
So if you build for 155@4800ft , you will be down to 125@10,500. If you are just visiting, I guess that could work.
As for me, no, 125 sucks. So I would be doing the closed chamber Alloy head deal, with 180psi@4800 and 150psi @10,500

So, because of the sensitivity of this build, for myself, I would need to make a decision, right now, on iron versus alloy, cuz that will determine where to go from here.
Lets say alloy heads are not in the budget
Lets say closed-chamber are not either, and I have to stick with the iron, open-chamber heads, that I already have. So then, 155psi@4800 is my target, so I can burn 89 gas at WOT, 87 the rest of the time.
Ok then right away I'm throwing away that factory cam, because at 46* ICA I got no hope hitting 155psi with open chambers.
So lets see just how much Scr I can build on the cheap, with just an .020 overbore.
Stock heads are 70/72cc
Cheap pistons are gonna be something like .024 in the hole. flat-tops with NO eyebrows.so say 4.8cc
And I'll have to use the .028 gasket at 6.8cc
That totals 82.6cc; oh lordy,lordy.
My swept volume at 3.93bore and 3.315 stroke is 659cc So the Scr is 8.98 This is a slam it together build with only costs being the boring, and the tall cd pistons.
Ok so how can I get to 155psi from here?
Answer; I cannot
This build might make 145psi@ 46* Ica

I still don't know how yur engine is gonna deal with the fueling issue. If you jet for 10,500 it will be way lean at 4800. If you jet for 4800, it will be way rich at 10,500. If you jet up the middle, you'll still be 3 to 5 jet sizes out at either end.
And the power-circuit is gonna go crazy.
With a carb, and a factory-style distributor, I see more broken rings in your future.

Ok bedtime. I'll figure some more in the AM.
Continuing; I'm throwing away the flat-tops, in favor of some reverse-dome, step-D-cups with Q pads.I'm hitting the search now.
Ok that looks easier said than done........
Lets back up the bus.
Since this won't be cheap anyway, lets swap to a closed chamber head. And to get the Q dialed in, we'll need to run the .028 gaskets... which will allow a piston down-in-the-hole up to ~.020. So now I'm on the hunt for those...
Ok, the KB167s pop up right away with a compression distance of 1.810. Thus being, nominally, .0095 in the hole, and that works! With the .028gasket, that makes the Q,nominally, .0375 and perfect.
So now lets find the right size heads for this. Iron is gonna be cheaper, but alloys allow a far higher pressure before hitting the detonation wall. That means, since I'm thinking detonation IS gonna be a factor, with the lean-running, I'd go alloys..
OOps, dog's gotta go,back soon.....
Ok, so now, here's my thinking;
Since I now have plenty of compression, with a great ring-seal, and a new valve job, that means my engine is also gonna have plenty of "suck". This means I can now choose the right cam, and work the Scr backwards to work with the cam!
And so, I'm gonna choose a cam, not for absolute power, cuz with 3.08s in the back, 5500rpm with 27s comes to 53 mph at the top of first/90mph in second; So I couldn't a flying two hoots about absolute power. No, I'm gonna choose a cam to get me some air at altitude and the climbing rpm, I'm gonna anticipate.So firstly, I have to be able to control exactly when the intake closes. That means no spec at .008 tappet rise, no spec at .006, and above all no such spec at 300, that will just kill my pressure.It also leads to just one type of cam; namely a solid lifter cam.
his is not gonna be a hi=rpm build..... because of the aforementioned 3.08s. At cruising,you're gonna see ~65mph=2500, and to pass; 75 =3200 in Drive/4600 in second. So the engine can be 300 rpm past the power peak at 4600, making the power peak to be 4300, just about what the factory cam does. Hmmmmm, no forget it AJ. But the math tells us that whatever .050 the factory cam has, is the right .050 for this combo. If I got this right, IIRC, the factory cam is a 240/248/111 cam, with an.050 on the intake of around 192*, which peaked at around 4200; perfect. So, the number of interest is the 192*. Next, At this size there is as good as no overlap, so headers are just a distant option; a free-flowing big-outlet log manifold or shorties will be fine.
Since the alloy heads will not require extra duration on the exhaust, I don't NEED a dual-pattern cam.
Since I am targeting a very narrow powerband, I also do not need a wide LSA.
Ok, those 3.08s are gonna get me ~50mph=3000 in second gear, so that is what I'm gonna target. ... because 55mph in "Drive" is only 2300, and your 318 would need to be a diesel to climb mountains at that rpm. So "drive" is o-u-t.
So now we have the rpm fixed to 3000 +/- a couple of hundred rpm, so lets put our Torque Peak right there. 3000 dictates a cam size of 204 to maybe 208. So now we have a pretty good picture of te cam we want.Namely; 192 to 208 @.050.. So let's run up the middle at~@200
I'm stuck on a solid lifter so, I'm looking at 39* ramps on this cam, and I'll round that up to 240* after lashing. And I am gonna add some exhaust duration, to get some overlap, and reduce the ridiculous amount of power duration; so 252 exhaust after lashing. Because this can be considered similar to a stationary engine, running between 2800 to 3200 at WOT on the 2bbl, I'll tighten up the LSA to 106*. So that gives me the preliminary numbers, namely 240/252/106+3.. Lets see what I need for compression. The Ica on this cam will be 43*. And the Wallace gives the following;
At 10.6 Scr the pressure at 4800 is predicted to be 180, and at 10,500 predicted to be 150; you see the aforementioned 30psi split? Well that looks GREAT, now what's it gonna take to make that 10.6?
At 3.93bore a 3.315 stroke, the swept comes to 659cc, and for 10.6, that requires a total chamber volume of 68.64cc.
The deck clearance at .0095 is 1.9cc, the .028 gasket is 6.9cc, the dish/eyebrows are listed at 5cc, so so far I have 13.7 and that leaves 68.64 less 13.7=55cc for the heads; let's go find some.
IIRC the smallest I have seen are spec'd at 59cc.
Ok with 59cc heads that brings the total to 59 + 13.7=72.7, and the Scr comes to 10.06 ouch
No biggie, lets back up to see what the pressure now comes to. I get 168/138 meh, not bad, Lets close the intake a lil sooner. At 40 instead of 43, I get 171/141, there you go, that will be dynomite, burning 87E10 full time, as long as the engine stays cool. This new Ica, will require a slightly smaller cam, say 196*.050.
I'm not cool with that, plus I don't think I can find one off the shelf. So I'm gonna stick with the former 240/252/106, and the resulting 10.06scr, and the 168/138 pressures.
So where am I on this build?
I bored the engine, installed KB167s, got some 59cc alloy heads,and a solid-lifter cam kit. ,this combo has 34* overlap, so headers will bring torque exactly when I need it, namely 2800 to 3200. But, running at up to 3200, I won't need a 4bbl, yeah ok, passing will be a bit weak at what was it 4300IIRC, in second. But in the mountains,am I gonna pass? If yes, then a small 4bbl on a SMALL-PORT intake will be just fine.
So it looks like I spent a lotta money here, for probably no more than stock horsepower.
But wait! Let's go back to that cam. Recall it was a 240/252/106+3, solid-lifter cam. It closes the intake at exactly 43*, no messing around. The torque peak is hoped to fall in the zone of 2800 to 3200. The power duration is 125*, compared to the 122* of the stock cam, so I know my mpgs has the potential to be similar to the Stock engine. The compression duration is 137* compared to 132 on the stocker, but she's starting from 10.06Scr instead of the nominal 8.0
The overlap is now 27* compared to 22* of the stocker. This won't mean much with log-manifolds at 2800 to 3200; but in passing gear it will make a nice little surge.
Now all that's left is get some big fat hi-lift lobes. @Wyrmrider?

Ok to re-iterate, this is how I would do it.
Is it the best?
No,because we still have to deal with the fueling issue.
Supercharging is probably the best; it will make all your problems go away. Just put yur engine back together, bolt one on, do a lil tuning; and yur done.
 
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I am starting the engine build. Beautiful inside and turned freely.

Bearings are 74 dated and do not look bad at all. The gaskets are oil soaked and crap.

The only thing I found so far is 3 or 4 cylinders had broken top rings but did not damage the walls nor inhibit the engine from turning freely.

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Mancini has a good refresh kit that I would use for a start for your build... It comes with main and rod bearings, moly rings, and a complete gasket kit for $205:

Sealed Power Engine Kit - 318



All refresh kits:

Engine Rebuild Kits
 
So why would 3 or 4 cylinders have broken top rings but no wall damage

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People scoff at it all the time, but the Edelbrock Performer camshaft is perfect for an upgrade for a stock engine. And the good part is, Melling, Elgin, Sealed Power all make the same camshaft, so you can find it cheap. It's the one that's like 420/441 204 and 214 @ .050 It's a really great old school grind and works well in a stone stock engine, regardless of what the scoffers say. Likewise, the Edelbrock Performer 600 AFB carburetor and the Edelbrock Performer intake will really compliment the camshaft. Just food for thought.
 
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