Cam Ideas

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lopeha

lopeha

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In a quandry over what would be the most ideal cam for my project. Here's the basics - '67 Barracuda Fastback, original 273/904 car (was bought without the motor), 8.75 rear end with 3.23 posi, will have A/C (too old & fat to go without). New motor will be a '90 360 stock bore with magnum heads ('95, freshly remanufactured) & rockers, Hughes roller lifters, Treblig exhaust manifolds, no power steering, drums brakes with booster, Air Gap intake, Edelbrock 1406 carb, Griffin aluminum radiator, 2.25 or 2.5 exhaust (haven't decided yet) & electronic ignition (undecided on which one). What I'm looking for is a mild lope at idle with good bottom end. No plans to take to the strip other than maybe one pass just to see what it'll do, mainly cruising.
Considering a Hughes SER 0814ALN-10 or a SER 1418ALN-10. Do one of those look like a good fit or are their other good choices. Thanks in advance for your help, Andy.
 
I'd go with SER 0814ALN-10, I don't think the other would be a bad choice. the smaller one is perfect for what you want.
 
All I'll say is, it'll run better with a cam than without one.
 
273 said:
I'd go with SER 0814ALN-10, I don't think the other would be a bad choice. the smaller one is perfect for what you want.
Click to expand...
Thanks 273! Had originally planned on going with teh stock grind but it is on backorder for who knows how much longer so figured might as well save up some more get something "better".
 
Hughes gives you nothing you can work with
Before you shell out MEGA coin for a HR
request the durations seat to seat at .006
and the durations at .200 for the power potential
for example
.006...050 .200 lift
260 208 128 490 1.5 .523 with 1.6 rockers .556 with 1.7
the ,050 is useless for picking a cam especially when you did not post your exact compression ratio
stock 1.6 rockers? (no reason to change unless you go 1.7
 
Using stock Magnum rockers. Bore on the block is standard, it's at the machine shop so no way to get exact compression ratio. The donor motor being a "tweener" is making things difficult, but it was free so the price was right!
 
Stock 1.6 Magnum rockers good choice for what you are doing
did you check ELGIN for that stock cam?
lets work off what 273 said
but what if you could have the larger cam at lift and .200 duration
and the smaller cam at .006 (we will have to guess at Hughes cams .006 and .200 and work off Hughes .050 we have no idea how his work from .006 to .050 which Harvey Crane called "Intensity"

Here are some HR lobes which are not as radical as Hughes as he has a reputation for pushing the envelope and I do not know who grinds his HR cams
using Hughes smaller 208 @ 50 I come up with a 260-264 seat timing

260° 211°126°.316″.505″ about the same lift as the larger Hughes cam
260 208° 128° .327″ .523″ .032 more lift and .024 more lift than the larger cam most likely more at .200
260°210° 132° .313″ .500″ here we have 132@200 with same lift as the larger cam but same estimated seat to seat as the smaller cam

264 212° 128° .310″ .496″ same lift as the larger cam this one is going to rev higher
264 218 139 .340 .544 same 264 but way more area under the curve

BTW AJ/FormS has a recent post where he ballparks 165 psi cranking to get best non pinging Dynamic compression with Iron heads I agree (less for regular gas or a Truck, more for a race car)
What I'm trying to show is that you can increase your DCR with a shorter cam and driveability under 3000 rpm yet not give up any power as proxied by the .200 number
you get the 165 by a combination of your static compression ratio and the point your intake closes- a key data point
BTW a 264 CAM wants 9.7 CR 256 wants 9:1 260 in the middle somewhere
so knowing your compression ratio is the key for a street machine/ daily driver
Hot rod just stick a big cam in and live with no low end or change gears and converter etc
 
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So if I understand correctly you are saying staying with the stock grind might be a better choice in the long run? Doing this would also alleviate the possible need for the Hughes springs & retainers which is nice for the wallet. Did the big cam thing many years ago & while being great for the strip it pretty much sucks on the street so want to keep it on the mild side. BTW - great info!
 
29438633-558F-4973-9D6F-6180567F339A.jpeg
Not too long ago I took part in freshening up a 5.2 magnum and I had a 1988 model factory 360 roller cam I donated to it. The specs of the LA 5.9 cam and the Magnum roller cam are the same. This was worth a 10 degree increase of advertised duration over the 5.2 magnum cam and some extra .050 duration and exhaust lift with the 1.6:1 rockers. Works fine with the stock valve train. This was engine went into a 1988 LWB W-100 with NP-435 HD four speed and 3.21 gears with 31X10.5-15s to be used for heavy work and towing, mostly scrap metal hauling. We curved a stock distributor for 18 degrees mechanical and 17 degrees of vacuum advance and installed a five pin electronic ignition, off-brand air gap manifold, and 650 Edelbrock and a pair of '68 318 truck manifolds.
As far as the end result, it runs a whole lot better than it should! I'll post some late night video of airing it out in the eternal third gear but it's a really happy combination. It's really perfect for what the truck does, the owner is tickled to no end with it. He claims that even when "grave yard loaded" with the first load of scrap steel and iron and pulling a likewise loaded 18 foot twin axle trailer that there is no shortage of torque, that it pulls just about the same as unloaded except for having to give yourself extra stopping distance.
For your goals, a stock regrind type LA 360 roller cam is the first step camshaft that will provide considerable grunt. Or if you want to go all out stump puller with high lift and Casper Milquetoast duration and LSA, there’s the stock 318 LA roller cam. With the 1.6:1 rockers would give you .461 I/E lift (your usually safe up to about .470, but always check retainer to guide clearance!). It would probably run out of breath at 4000 rpm in a 5.9 magnum but would have the idle sound your looking for and outright stupid ”Tow Truck Torque”. Here are the stock LA cam specs vs the stock Magnum cam specs if you want to crunch the numbers with the 1.5:1 vs. 1.6:1 rocker ratios. The Magnum cam numbers are identical to the hydraulic roller cams, but have shorter lobe lift because of the 1.6:1 ratio rockers.
 
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lopeha said:
In a quandry over what would be the most ideal cam for my project. Here's the basics - '67 Barracuda Fastback, original 273/904 car (was bought without the motor), 8.75 rear end with 3.23 posi, will have A/C (too old & fat to go without). New motor will be a '90 360 stock bore with magnum heads ('95, freshly remanufactured) & rockers, Hughes roller lifters, Treblig exhaust manifolds, no power steering, drums brakes with booster, Air Gap intake, Edelbrock 1406 carb, Griffin aluminum radiator, 2.25 or 2.5 exhaust (haven't decided yet) & electronic ignition (undecided on which one). What I'm looking for is a mild lope at idle with good bottom end. No plans to take to the strip other than maybe one pass just to see what it'll do, mainly cruising.
Considering a Hughes SER 0814ALN-10 or a SER 1418ALN-10. Do one of those look like a good fit or are their other good choices. Thanks in advance for your help, Andy.
Click to expand...
Hey Andy! I’d run the 1st Hughes cam and not look back. You can science out the cam more like Wyrmrider suggests but there will be little noticeable difference at your level. Do I suggest his route? Sure, why not. But I wouldn’t loose sleep over it.

“That Muscle car chop @ idle” is based on where the centerline of the cam is. Typically, “That Sound” is due to the 110 centerline. More of a choppy idle will be on a 108. A mello-er sound will be on a 112 and plus @ 114 will sound stock.
The tighter or lower the number, the tougher the idle gets. At 108, it tends to deliver the most torque down low.
 
lopeha said:
So if I understand correctly you are saying staying with the stock grind might be a better choice in the long run? Doing this would also alleviate the possible need for the Hughes springs & retainers which is nice for the wallet. Did the big cam thing many years ago & while being great for the strip it pretty much sucks on the street so want to keep it on the mild side. BTW - great info!
Click to expand...

208 cam isn't a big cam, the only down side I see is the lift magnum heads may not have enough clearance for that high of a lift, I got 380hp crate and from what heard that about the biggest you can go without cutting. which is .501"/.513" If you don't want to do that I go with no more than .513".

Voodoo has this one Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 258/264; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 207/213; Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .485/.485; LSA/ICL: 112/106; Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd; RPM Range: Idle-4800;

or

Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/270 ;Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 211/219 ;Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .507/.515 ;LSA/ICL: 112/106 ;Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd ;RPM Range: 1400-5400 ;

I'm guessing .515" would fit
 
Yes, I like the aftermarket cams, too especially since they are all about the same price. We just used what we had, and it also gave us a fuel pump drive for a magnum engine. Here is our “junkyard build” in a truck with too tall of gears and not enough exhaust. Idle sped is also high when we were initially setting up final tune too. The exhaust is stock 2-1/8 to Y pipe to a single 2-1/4 twin chamber flow master. Still not bad though, 70 in third before having to brake hard for the rapidly approaching stop sign...

 
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Thanks to all for the input! I have some reading and research to do.
 
There are (at least) two different 318 Magnum cams- the earlier one is bigger
I disagree with rumble the custom cam can have 25-35 more ft lbs that a shelf cam even if the top end hp may be a little less- but how often do you use it even passing someone
and the Hughes cams are more pricey than most
No way would I buy a cam without knowing the seat duration
way to easy to have an extra 10 20 degrees which gives a major FUBAR on your Dynamic compression
 
Custom cam done right? Yes, agree with Wyrmrider
Shelf cam vs shelf cam, I stand my ground.
Who is doing the custom cam? I’ve seen hefty fubar results from the best names and brands. Race ramp lobes with ear popping lifts that are supposed to be the latest and greatest most power making thing since the discovery of N02 fall flat on there face while brand sloppy poop made more power. LMAO!!!!
 
318 Port match heads to Performer RPM Intake
posts 56 & 60
what's that exhaust?
no race lobes but I do know that Hughes pushes the envelope
shelf cams in the duration of the Hughes cams .050 vary by 20 degrees at seat
lifts from .440 to 550ish
range from 108 to 112
you have to choose wisely
 
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rumblefish360 said:
Custom cam done right? Yes, agree with Wyrmrider
Shelf cam vs shelf cam, I stand my ground.
Who is doing the custom cam? I’ve seen hefty fubar results from the best names and brands. Race ramp lobes with ear popping lifts that are supposed to be the latest and greatest most power making thing since the discovery of N02 fall flat on there face while brand sloppy poop made more power. LMAO!!!!
Click to expand...


It also depends on which shelf cam you compare to what other shelf cam. The wrong shelf cam compared to a decent shelf grind will show pretty big gains.

One thing the dyno can’t duplicate is driveability. On Friday night I had the pair of tunnel ram carbs I was working on so close that any other tuning was picking the fly poop out of the pepper.

Being the AR freak I am, I decided to go for the fence and made one change that screwed me blind. WOT was still fine. Getting from just off idle to WOT was perfect. Idle speed and tune was most excellent. But driveablity took a massive deuce on me.

And I fought that issue until almost 2 PM today. I refused to go back to the one change I made because I liked the change. I had to make it happy. And I did. And my buddy is happy too.

The point is you can’t really measure driveablity other than driving it. Cam timing affects driveability, but you won’t see that on a Dyno.

That’s why I snivel don’t much about cam timing and getting something ground for your specific combination. It may not make any more power, either at WOT or even have more power under the curve. But I can say that you can find driveablity without giving up power.
 
I think some are way over thinking this one, the OP is just looking for a mild cam with and bit of muscle car sound.
 
If it were mine with those goals in mind, I would be living by the K.I.S.S. principle. That means forgetting about the idle sound and look for a stock replacement LA 360 hydraulic roller. One of the mileage improving designs and add 1.7:1 ratio rockers to do the work. It would make gobs of bottom end torque with the 3.23 gears and air gap intake and would run out pretty nicely on top, too. Not saying custom or performance oriented grind wouldn't out do it, but if your needs are relatively simple and near the stock magnum 360 level, I wouldn't see risking overdoing it. These same cams move big heavy trucks with a good deal of proficiency, it would work pretty well for your Barracuda with A/C, and might even get some decent mileage doing it, too.
 
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That's certainly an option Garrett an early 318 grind works from well like from say Elgin however the small Lunati would be a lot better or one of the customs I mentioned
however "all about the same price " not so - some are really pricey starting with Hughes which is what he was considering in Post one
and I showed where he could have the larger cam performance with the smaller cams low end for the price of a Hughes
(not that either are correct)
OP using stock magnum rockers 1.7 works on the intake but you have to correct the geometry - with his cam size he can do it with the lobe- much easier
Treblig exhaust manifolds- what exactly are these?
good bottom end and lopey idle are mutually exclusive - tune your exhaust for sound
what's the best estimate of compression
273 thinking it over can make a 25 ft lb change on the low end
he can even boost stall speed torque- which is going to be low
It appears that he does not have a cam and has to buy something
 
All valid points! I do particularly like the base level Lunati High efficiency cam, but it will require some retainer to guide work to make it work with the magnum 1.6:1 rockers. Lift would come out closer to .501/.526 but otherwise it's an ultra conservative grind, 206/215 @.050 on a 112 LSA.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-20200217/make/dodge
 
Wyrmrider said:
That's certainly an option Garrett an early 318 grind works from well like from say Elgin however the small Lunati would be a lot better or one of the customs I mentioned
however "all about the same price " not so - some are really pricey starting with Hughes which is what he was considering in Post one
and I showed where he could have the larger cam performance with the smaller cams low end for the price of a Hughes
(not that either are correct)
OP using stock magnum rockers 1.7 works on the intake but you have to correct the geometry - with his cam size he can do it with the lobe- much easier
Treblig exhaust manifolds- what exactly are these?
good bottom end and lopey idle are mutually exclusive - tune your exhaust for sound
what's the best estimate of compression
273 thinking it over can make a 25 ft lb change on the low end
he can even boost stall speed torque- which is going to be low
It appears that he does not have a cam and has to buy something
Click to expand...
The Treblig manifolds are a driver side 340 & a 360 passenger side that has had the exhaust opening machined to 2.25 " to match the other. Treblig is a site member that was doing the mods & offering for sale.
 
Wyrmrider said:
That's certainly an option Garrett an early 318 grind works from well like from say Elgin however the small Lunati would be a lot better or one of the customs I mentioned
however "all about the same price " not so - some are really pricey starting with Hughes which is what he was considering in Post one
and I showed where he could have the larger cam performance with the smaller cams low end for the price of a Hughes
(not that either are correct)
OP using stock magnum rockers 1.7 works on the intake but you have to correct the geometry - with his cam size he can do it with the lobe- much easier
Treblig exhaust manifolds- what exactly are these?
good bottom end and lopey idle are mutually exclusive - tune your exhaust for sound
what's the best estimate of compression
273 thinking it over can make a 25 ft lb change on the low end
he can even boost stall speed torque- which is going to be low
It appears that he does not have a cam and has to buy something
Click to expand...
I have a Melling stock 360 on order, but it is on backorder with no ETA. Planning to call Melling tomorrow to see if there is any hope.
 
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