Can someone help? I need to drive my dart tomorrow

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Shaun65dart

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Hey guys. So today was driving my 65 dart home from work. Doing about 75 on freeway. I have the slant 6 225 and everything is stock besides Petronius ignition. No radio. All stock gauges work. Well, the ammeter was reading off the scale in the positive direction and when I hit the off ramp, smoke was coming from the dash!

I shut if off and felt the wire and it was hot. I also grabbed a picture. The red wire is intact but the insulation is burned and where the connector is is black too. I just bought the car last month. The ammeter gauge is extremely sensitive and I’m not sure why. It does have a remanufactured alternator but I do know how many amps. It has a green wire and black wire going to it. Can you guys point me in the right direction on what’s going on here and how to fix it?

Also, I need to drive the car to work tomorrow, is there a way to safely work around this?

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It got hot. From the terminal “fretting” another word for micro-arcing.
Carefully remove the wire, and clean terminal, then remove black wire and bolt the 2 together on the better of the two posts. Then go get a VOLTMETER as it will indicate more than just one problem without causing a problem like this and every other ammeter.
 
You`ll have to bypass the ammeter but yet power your switch and fuse block.
download a schematic or look in service manual if you have one.
Maybe Dell will see this and steer you in a better direction.
Good luck have fun, he he
 
That hot wire is grounding on the gauge cluster. there are supposed to be insulator grommets separating the wire from the steel cluster. all I see is disintegrated grommets.The gauge is also likely toast.
 
So if put the two wires together on the better of the two posts, then it can be driven and the charges system will still be working fine? No more concern for fire?
 
I did that to my power wagon 20 years ago. If groundi/shorting is a concern, bolt them together and tape them up so they are well insulated. Then secure so they wont short on any other metal bits. And add a voltmeter.
 
Is adding a voltmeter necessary or is it fine to put both wires on one post and call it a day
 
Just call it a day. Voltmeter whenever you see fit.
 
So if put the two wires together on the better of the two posts, then it can be driven and the charges system will still be working fine? No more concern for fire?
NO.
Something is drawing current through the charge circuit toward the battery.
The question is what?
If its the battery, then if all the connections are OK, you can drive it at low rpms or for a short while at higher rpms. This is the problem with bypassing the ammeter - you won't be able to monitor the current. A few minutes at 20 or 30 amps will be OK if all of the connections and wires are good. More than a few minutes and the battery acid will start to cook and will reduce its capacity to take a charge. Also, the wires will start to get warm running that much current for an extended period of time. Your car may have a fusible link, I forget the first year it was used. If your lucky, it will melt before the others do.

If its not the battery - then there is a short of some sort between the ammeter and the battery. This will be trouble with a capital T.

Explanation:
The ammeter only shows current flowing to or from the battery.
It is not an indication of voltage or alternator output.
Indirectly, you can see the effect of low alternator output in the ammeter.
- If the battery is fully charged and the ammeter cannot supply the electrical needs, the battery will supply the current (and you'll see the ammeter show discharge).
- If the battery is not fully charged, you'll see the ammeter go to zero when it can't provide enough power to recharge the battery. As the rpms climb, alternator output increases.

I'll add illustrations in minute
 
If the insulating washers are really missing from the posts, then don't attach to the posts. It will still ground out!
 
Thank you for that I explanation. I need to somehow conjure up a plan of attack now. If something is actually wrong I don’t want to just put the two wires on one post
 
Illustration of the charging circuit here: Understanding Charging Systems with Ammeter
The alternator post doesn't look nearly as terrible as the battery (red wire) side. Hope it works out.
If you can charge up the battery tonight on a charger - that would minimize the load on those wires tomorrow.
 
Mattax what would you do here?
About the same as you. Try to come up with a plan of attack. :)
First will be to see if we can get enough info to figure out why so much current was going toward the battery.
Ammeter info from before:
Did you notice the ammeter pegged before the off ramp?
When you were stopped at lights or intersections, did it go to discharge?

Second, you have a voltmeter or multimeter? How about a battery hydrometer (assuming a removable cap type battery)?
Goals here are
a) to get a sense of whether the battery is low.
b) track down shorts and/or additional poor connections.
For the shorts with an ohmeter, disconnect the battery posative and then measure resistance to ground from each exposed connection. Should be infinate resistance.

Resistance in the wires will be hard to measure with the ohmeter. But as a precaution, after reconnecting the circuit wires (lets say on one post), then measure resistance between the alternator's bat post and the Battery's positive clamp. If its measureable, then there's still a really bad connection in the circuit. Also check again for ground short. If none, then reattach to the battery.

With the battery connected, check voltage at a few locations. With nothing running, voltage should be the same everywhere. Only when power is being drawn should you be able to measure voltage drops.
 
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One last thought - some one else may have help on this. Where is the pertronix getting power? How much current does it draw? If its drawing power from battery side of the ammeter, and for some reason its drawing a lot of current, that could be another reason the the ammeter indicated charging.
 
Bottom line. If the battery was low, and there's no shorts, the poor corroded connection was the culprit.
I'd then Charge the battery. Clean the ring terminals - join together and check that the circuit for resistance. If OK proceed. Check the voltage before starting, and after starting at both the alternator an the battery. Put the multi-meter on the floor behind the front seat. Probably have a hand extinguisher in the car too. (hey you asked, and I do bring one when I've having problems that could light up)
 
If its been a problem and getting progressively worse then its the ampmeter causing a load,ever increasing until you get to where you are now. Yes, it is an instrument to warn you of a charging problem.
For example if you used car for jump starting another vehicle or have a habit of running battery down or run a bigass amp to power a set of subs in the trunk, the weak link will rear its ugly head in short order.

All this hogwash about diagnosing faults has merit,but if car is dead due to the wire in the photo, you need to patch it so you can find your trouble.
Checking voltage before and after its running and with all the accessories off and on will indicate the condition of your battery and charging system.

Amp meters have been gone from dashboards for over 30 years for good reason....
Over-analysing the situation isnt getting it fixed.
Unlike todays electrical systems with hundreds perhaps thousands of feet of wire connecting 20 or so computer modules. Computer bus circuits with rendundant wiring, thats where its at...resistance is futile,failure is eminent.
 
The weak link is the connections. But the point is if there is a short or another bad connection - that's how a fire is going to get started. Without the ammeter to monitor the current flow, he needs to check these possibilities out before driving it. That ammeter's bat post is no condition to be used as is - and I'm not suggesting he use it tommorrow. In fact I'm suggesting he may not want to use the other one either. Depends on whether it is insulated from ground.
 
I am not going to be driving the car tomorrow as it needs some time to get looked at. When I bought the car the ammeter worked as it should, not like it did in the video. Then it became intermittent. Now it does it full time. The battery is basically brand new as I bought it to replace the one the car came with. It has never run low or needed a jump and always starts the car fine. I guess I would like to know what would cause the gauge to act like it did in the video? Is it a problem with the gauge, connection on the posts, or something else? All other wiring is intact and not butchered. Car has an original 94k miles on it
 
I am not going to be driving the car tomorrow as it needs some time to get looked at. When I bought the car the ammeter worked as it should, not like it did in the video. Then it became intermittent. Now it does it full time. The battery is basically brand new as I bought it to replace the one the car came with. It has never run low or needed a jump and always starts the car fine. I guess I would like to know what would cause the gauge to act like it did in the video? Is it a problem with the gauge, connection on the posts, or something else? All other wiring is intact and not butchered. Car has an original 94k miles on it

Are you comfortable with drawings? If so, the ammeter's movements will make more sense after looking at the diagrams in my link above.

The movement in your video is telling us current is flowing from the alternator toward the battery. Specifically, the flow increases from near zero to 20 amps when we hear the engine rev. That's not intermittent per se, its responding to flow.

To know why, will require some more testing or more info from your observations.

We know some things to start with.
The current only flows when something calls for it.
Alternator potential output increases with rpm.
Something on the battery side of the ammeter was calling for power - maybe the battery, maybe the pertronix if it was attached to that side, maybe a short.
The alternator doesn't have enough power output at idle to satisfy that demand, but as rpm increases, its output increases and the demand is met.

Its worth checking the battery condition because many times the stock alternators could barely provide enough power at idle for the ignition, lights, and wipers or other accessories. Over time, the wires and connections oxidize, and sometimes get loose. This means even less current and voltage to keeps things going at idle, so the battery takes over every time the car is idling. Then when driving, the alternator recharges it. The lower the battery charge is, the more current the ammeter gives it, when it can.

In the above situation, the culprit is low alternator output at idle combined with poor or loose connections.

A similar situation will be if just one of the alternator diodes fails. The alternator still puts out power, but only 2/3 of what it would normally. At idle, this is terrible. If you saw the battery discharging at idle - this may be the problem.

A voltage regulator failure could indirectly cause similar symptoms if the battery was low. If the voltage is high, or goes up with rpm, (another reason to be checking with the voltmeter) the regulator is stuck on full field power. If the battery is low, then once again current will increase with the rpm. But in this case its because the voltage is allowed to climb. Or, I've had this on some of the new solid state ones, where the regular just gets a little flakey.
Another reason for a regulator to full field when it shouldn't is poor connections in its circuit - usually a bad terminal crimp or oxidation at the bulkhead. If the regulator see less the 14.5 ish Volts, its going to let more current through to the alternator's field. The regulator here is just doing its job. If its getting under 14.x volts, it thinks the alternator isn't putting out enough power.
Measure the voltage at the regulator connection.

Last, if the pertronix is wired to the battery, and if its going flakey and now drawing more current than before, this, plus the poor connection be causing what you see.

And going back to the begining - if there is a short - the insulation missing anywhere and a wire touching a ground its going to draw as much power as the alternator can send it.
edit: I'm thinking this is less likely - assuming your battery is still connected. Because if there is still a short in the charging wiring, the battery will discharge through it - and you would have noticed that immediately!
 
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bypass it and dont look back.

Catalog

Shaun, do you want me to drop off a squareback dual field alternator and electronic voltage regulator at your work tomorrow morning? between 7:30 and 8 AM.
 
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