Canyon Carver project?

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SpaceDemon

SpaceDemon

"Wanna toothpick?"
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I'm wanting to build up my space duster demon clone for the coming months and I want to take it to the track & strip on the weekends.
Now #1. I need it to be reliable, but I want it to be fast and not guzzle gas. I'm shooting for 25mpg.
#2 I live with fairly "unkept" roads. Anything on the road lower than 2.5" will be scraped to bits. But I still want my ride to handle well.
#3 I'm aiming for a manual swap but my budget for this endeavor is $4k.
-SD
 
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Wide tires may cut into mpg.

Back in the early 70's, my 66 plain Jane Dodge Coronet w/3 on the tree /6, consistently got 25 mpg on highway. Drove it hard and fast too.
With today's gas subtract 10% from that.

I get low 20's on 66 273 Barracuda with today's gas.
 
SpaceDemon said:
I'm wanting to build up my space duster demon clone for the coming months and I want to take it to the track & strip on the weekends.
Now #1. I need it to be reliable, but I want it to be fast and not guzzle gas. I'm shooting for 25mpg.
#2 I live with fairly "unkept" roads. Anything on the road lower than 2.5" will be scraped to bits. But I still want my ride to handle well.
#3 I'm aiming for a manual swap but my budget for this endeavor is $4k.
-SD
Click to expand...

First off, welcome! :welcome:

As for the rest of your project, you should decide if you want to have a canyon carver or a strip car, because if you're going to do one of those things well, you probably won't do the other one so well. What's fastest on the strip is not fastest in the corners, what's fastest in the corners will not be fastest at the strip. Two different suspension set ups.

Now,
#1. "fast" and "25mpg" aren't very compatible. Not unless you're talking a gen III hemi swap with fuel injection, and you're not doing that for $4k. With a mild 318 you can get around the 20mpg mark if you tune accordingly, but that won't be all that "fast". But even a well tuned 318 is going to have a hard time getting 25 mpg, and that's freeway, not city driving.

#2. If you can get your A-body to 2.5" off the pavement without sitting on the bumpstops, all I can say is bravo. Because that's gonna take some work (or some REALLY short tires). The way these cars are built, if you run a good set of headers you can be pretty low and still have the lowest part of the car be the header flanges with around 3.75" of clearance. With a set of Doug's D453 headers on my car, that's what I've got. And to get to this stance, there's some pretty significant suspension work that had to happen.

img_4756-jpg-jpg.jpg


#3. A manual swap is going to cost you thousands all by itself. Even doing it on the cheap, it'll easily cost $2k. By the time you round up pedals, a bellhousing, a workable 833, shift linkage, clutch linkage, flywheel, clutch, shifter, 4 speed floor hump, etc you'll have a hard time being under that. Meanwhile, if you want your car to handle well, you have a few grand in suspension upgrades you'll need to take care of.

As for the suspension upgrades, this works as a pretty good start...

1.03 (or bigger) torsion bars ------------------------$250-$355
Tubular UCA’s (PST, FFI, etc)------------------------$350
Adjustable strut rods (PST SR 14385)---------------$279
Solid tie rod sleeves (PST SAS 440S)----------------$49
LCA boxing plate (PST LCAPLTMOP621)-------------$14.50
Greasable LCA pins (FFI w bushings)----------------$135

Helwig tubular front sway bar 1 1/8” #55905 (73+ K)--$175
Solid rear 3/4” #6907--------------------------------$237

Mopar oval track springs
Zero arch- P4529414---------------------------------------------$232
1" arch- P4529415

Energy suspension 1" shackle bushings 2-2117G----$9

Bilstein RCD shocks(RCD-70-56663)------------------$410

Grand total on that is about $2,300, that's got a little extra built in depending on where you shop and what you buy. That does do all of the suspension, but obviously still doesn't include the brakes, wheels or tires you'll need to put it to the ground. All of it you'll need, unless your definition of "canyon carver" is a lot different than mine. I would also suggest some chassis stiffening- subframe connectors, torque boxes, some kind of inner fender/shock tower bracing, etc.

My car started off as a '74 Duster, you can see it's transformation from a /6, auto on the column grandma car into the 340, 4 speed Demon clone in the picture above in my build thread My "new" '74 Duster- or why I need a project like a hole in the head
 
MileHighDart said:
I think we need more details
Click to expand...
Im going to see if I can pick up a pair of 302 heads from a pick and pull, port and match those and put on a thin gasket for some extra power. My 318s currently got an edle 650cmf carb and a dual plain intake(Not air-gap) cam of unknown spec, and headman headers.
As for the suspension, I picked up a flaming river quick ratio steering, subframe connectors, new firm feel leaf springs and sway bars, 1.12 T bars and Blitsen's will follow my next paycheck .
I have a T56 and Dana 60 with 4.10 and posi, but my savings are getting thinner as I go on. So im deciding what to do with my current 904 and 7.25 rear, compared to my much better looking parts that still need to be sized and fitted. Granted I can weld but I think I got maybe 2k left in me....
 
I also have a 12.5 Wilwood brake kit with my basset wheels (15x7 front, 15x8 nittos rear) and aluminum radiator with electric fan. And the '73 front end now has a 71 front from a swinger, so there's some weight savings.
 
72bluNblu said:
First off, welcome! :welcome:

As for the rest of your project, you should decide if you want to have a canyon carver or a strip car, because if you're going to do one of those things well, you probably won't do the other one so well. What's fastest on the strip is not fastest in the corners, what's fastest in the corners will not be fastest at the strip. Two different suspension set ups.

Now,
#1. "fast" and "25mpg" aren't very compatible. Not unless you're talking a gen III hemi swap with fuel injection, and you're not doing that for $4k. With a mild 318 you can get around the 20mpg mark if you tune accordingly, but that won't be all that "fast". But even a well tuned 318 is going to have a hard time getting 25 mpg, and that's freeway, not city driving.

#2. If you can get your A-body to 2.5" off the pavement without sitting on the bumpstops, all I can say is bravo. Because that's gonna take some work (or some REALLY short tires). The way these cars are built, if you run a good set of headers you can be pretty low and still have the lowest part of the car be the header flanges with around 3.75" of clearance. With a set of Doug's D453 headers on my car, that's what I've got. And to get to this stance, there's some pretty significant suspension work that had to happen.

View attachment 1715139615

#3. A manual swap is going to cost you thousands all by itself. Even doing it on the cheap, it'll easily cost $2k. By the time you round up pedals, a bellhousing, a workable 833, shift linkage, clutch linkage, flywheel, clutch, shifter, 4 speed floor hump, etc you'll have a hard time being under that. Meanwhile, if you want your car to handle well, you have a few grand in suspension upgrades you'll need to take care of.

As for the suspension upgrades, this works as a pretty good start...

1.03 (or bigger) torsion bars ------------------------$250-$355
Tubular UCA’s (PST, FFI, etc)------------------------$350
Adjustable strut rods (PST SR 14385)---------------$279
Solid tie rod sleeves (PST SAS 440S)----------------$49
LCA boxing plate (PST LCAPLTMOP621)-------------$14.50
Greasable LCA pins (FFI w bushings)----------------$135

Helwig tubular front sway bar 1 1/8” #55905 (73+ K)--$175
Solid rear 3/4” #6907--------------------------------$237

Mopar oval track springs
Zero arch- P4529414---------------------------------------------$232
1" arch- P4529415

Energy suspension 1" shackle bushings 2-2117G----$9

Bilstein RCD shocks(RCD-70-56663)------------------$410

Grand total on that is about $2,300, that's got a little extra built in depending on where you shop and what you buy. That does do all of the suspension, but obviously still doesn't include the brakes, wheels or tires you'll need to put it to the ground. All of it you'll need, unless your definition of "canyon carver" is a lot different than mine. I would also suggest some chassis stiffening- subframe connectors, torque boxes, some kind of inner fender/shock tower bracing, etc.

My car started off as a '74 Duster, you can see it's transformation from a /6, auto on the column grandma car into the 340, 4 speed Demon clone in the picture above in my build thread My "new" '74 Duster- or why I need a project like a hole in the head
Click to expand...
I need a whole new set of bushings, do you know what would be the best kind, and from who?
 
p-s-t.com has rubber and poly bushings I believe. Plus they are a site vendor and FABO members get a 10% discount on orders over $200 iirc.

I haven't ordered any personally, but intend to in the future and it seems like everyone else on here has been happy with their stuff from PST.
 
SpaceDemon said:
I need a whole new set of bushings, do you know what would be the best kind, and from who?
Click to expand...

There aren’t as many bushings as you think. If you keep the stock upper control arms, you’ll want a set of Moog 4103 offset UCA bushings. With the kind of modifications you’re already talking about you’ll need offset bushings to get anywhere near decent alignment numbers. Honestly, with some of that other components you have already I’d suggest tubular UCA’s like I listed above because you’ll want more caster than what you’ll get even with the 4103 offset bushings.

LCA bushings depend on application. If you keep the stock non-adjustable strut rods, stay with stock rubber LCA bushings. And stay with rubber strut rod bushings too.

If you want to eliminate the slop that’s present in the stock rubber LCA and strut rod bushings, you need to go to adjustable strut rods. That takes care of the strut rod bushings, and because the strut rods can now be tuned to the right length you can go with poly or Delrin LCA bushings. If you use poly LCA bushings, get greaseable LCA pivot pins. Firm Feel sells a nice kit with greasable pins and poly bushings. Installed with the adjustable strut rods that works really well.

I’ve used poly LCA bushings, but now run Delrin LCA bushings from Peter Bergman. You can get those at Bergman Autocraft. They work really well and are self lubricating, plus the eliminate the need to reuse the stock outer bushing shells, so they get a more precise fit. I still run them with the greasable LCA pins I got from Firm Feel though. Not to grease them, but because they had the best fit with the bushings.

That’s really about it for bushings, the rest is ball joints and tie rod ends.
 
I think you need to define your idea of good handling and fast. If you want a 13.6ish sec car that can corner without a lot of body roll ...
I think that could be accomplished assuming you have the tools and abilty to do most of the work yourself.
 
mbaird said:
I think you need to define your idea of good handling and fast. If you want a 13.6ish sec car that can corner without a lot of body roll ...
I think that could be accomplished assuming you have the tools and abilty to do most of the work yourself.
Click to expand...
I'm shooting for low 11s, being that I have the Dana with 410s and posi and T56 around, and the bolt-ons. But I think above all, I want to be able to turn a corner at speed while still maintaining composure and cruise on the highway.
 
SpaceDemon said:
I'm shooting for low 11s, being that I have the Dana with 410s and posi and T56 around, and the bolt-ons. But I think above all, I want to be able to turn a corner at speed while still maintaining composure and cruise on the highway.
Click to expand...

Waaaaiiit. You think you’re going to go low 11’s with a 318, 4.10” gears in a Dana 60, 1.12” torsion bars, Firm Feel leaf springs and Bilsteins?

And pull 25 mpg’s?

Look I’m no drag racer. I know a few basic things, my focus is handling. But you aren’t building a suspension set up that’s going to be ideal for drag racing. Not that you can’t drag race with that set up, but it’s going to cost you time. And I’m sure one of the drag race guys can give better info, but I’d guess you’d need 450 hp to go low 11’s unless that car is super light. That’s a tall order from a 318. Especially if you intend to drive it on the street and have it be reliable.

That’s why I asked you about what you wanted to do earlier. What handles best and what hooks best at the strip are two different suspension set ups. A “corner carver” is going to lose a bunch of time at the strip because of suspension set up. And throwing more power at it won’t necessarily fix it either, because you have to hook to go fast. The parts you already have will make for a good corner carver, they won’t make for a good 11 second strip car.
 
72bluNblu said:
Waaaaiiit. You think you’re going to go low 11’s with a 318, 4.10” gears in a Dana 60, 1.12” torsion bars, Firm Feel leaf springs and Bilsteins?

And pull 25 mpg’s?

Look I’m no drag racer. I know a few basic things, my focus is handling. But you aren’t building a suspension set up that’s going to be ideal for drag racing. Not that you can’t drag race with that set up, but it’s going to cost you time. And I’m sure one of the drag race guys can give better info, but I’d guess you’d need 450 hp to go low 11’s unless that car is super light. That’s a tall order from a 318. Especially if you intend to drive it on the street and have it be reliable.

That’s why I asked you about what you wanted to do earlier. What handles best and what hooks best at the strip are two different suspension set ups. A “corner carver” is going to lose a bunch of time at the strip because of suspension set up. And throwing more power at it won’t necessarily fix it either, because you have to hook to go fast. The parts you already have will make for a good corner carver, they won’t make for a good 11 second strip car.
Click to expand...
I'm also getting a fiberglass front end and aluminum seat. But I'm not sure when. Like I said earlier my emphasis is on handling and highway driving at the moment, being quick on the strip is less important to me right now, but something I'm keeping in mind for the future.
 
Alright.... So the blind ambition is now more nervous frustration. Putting off school and work for awhile to get a grasp on things has helped. But I have stumbled upon some parts along the way that have ultimately changed the original route I was going. The suspension is still what I said. (Just hope it's not too stiff.) But the drivetrain is gonna be changed up. I ended up getting an Abody 8 3/4 with 2.76 gears open diff. The trans is gonna be a a833 OD from an Aspen and I have to sell the Dana 60 and maybe the T56. That's just the way it be.... :/

In the mean time I'd like to know where to get some good U-joints for that combo and if someone has a 8.75 posi? Either 3.23 or 3.55
 
Well with that A833od and the 3.23/3.55s, you're gonna need a bigger engine. A lot bigger.Or you're gonna need to shed a lot of weight; a LOT. Or both. The ratios in that box are so far apart that you will have to run an unusual camshaft, and rely on some cubes to make it all happen. And you might as well forget the 25 mpgs.

Or you could start over and supercharge it. Then you can keep the 318, and that od box, and maybe even the 3.23/3.55s, altho with the od box I dunno why you would want to. A cruize gear of 2.36 is pretty darn low, making 65~1900 with 27" tires.
___________________________________
I ran that box,
and those gears
with a 367 and a 223* cam.
And I can tell you that my 11/1 aluminum headed torque-monster engine was too small for performance driving in any gear except first. But I can also tell you that it far surpassed 25mpg. Soon I was running it with 4.30s,and a GVOD,and starting splitting gears. That worked pretty good, and I was able to swap out the 4.30s; first to 3.91s and then to 3.55s.
The ratios were 3.09-2.41-1.67-1.30-1.00-.78od-.54od Yeah that's right 7 gears, and all great splits. But I got tired of HAVING to split the gears most of the time, and in the end I ditched that box.
With a 318 it will only be worse.
Unless you supercharge it.
 
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AJ/FormS said:
Well with that A833od and the 3.23/3.55s, you're gonna need a bigger engine. A lot bigger.Or you're gonna need to shed a lot of weight; a LOT. Or both. The ratios in that box are so far apart that you will have to run an unusual camshaft, and rely on some cubes to make it all happen. And you might as well forget the 25 mpgs.

Or you could start over and supercharge it. Then you can keep the 318, and that od box, and maybe even the 3.23/3.55s, altho with the od box I dunno why you would want to. A cruize gear of 2.36 is pretty darn low, making 65~1900 with 27" tires.
___________________________________
I ran that box,
and those gears
with a 367 and a 223* cam.
And I can tell you that my 11/1 aluminum headed torque-monster engine was too small for performance driving in any gear except first. But I can also tell you that it far surpassed 25mpg. Soon I was running it with 4.30s,and a GVOD,and starting splitting gears. That worked pretty good, and I was able to swap out the 4.30s; first to 3.91s and then to 3.55s.
The ratios were 3.09-2.41-1.67-1.30-1.00-.78od-.54od Yeah that's right 7 gears, and all great splits. But I got tired of HAVING to split the gears most of the time, and in the end I ditched that box.
With a 318 it will only be worse.
Unless you supercharge it.
Click to expand...
Do you know how much a rebuild from Passion would be? I tried looking around but never got any numbers. They seem pretty good with a gear set closer to original a833.

I'm going to be doing some manual transmission work in my autoshop class, it might be a worthwhile project.
(Also the tires are 28")
 
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