Car acts dead after it gets hot...

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DentalDart

DentalDart

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So I'm not an electrical person and I don't have an electrical tester thing, but I know how to buy parts and switch them out lol.

When my car is cold it starts up just fine, drives perfectly without missing a beat.

After driving it for a bit and it gets "hot," (temp guage only says 180)... if I turn it off the car won't turn back over, no cranking at all. The car acts like it is dead and won't crank but all my lights still work and I can start it by putting the key to the on position and bumping the starter relay.

The ignition module is brand new (maybe 6-8 months) same for the ignition coil. Spark plugs are brand new... everything ignition is new. Except for the ignition relay behind the key in the dash. Also starter relay and NSS switch are not new.

I was just going to replace all 3 of those relays but before I do has anyone had this problem before and maybe knows what the problem is?

Thanks! Pic for attention. The first time it happened I thought maybe my battery died... but then it started up after cooling off for a bit.

20210429_172604.jpg
 
I just went through this with my car. Its only a slant, but It had nearly the same symptoms. It would not crank sometimes, it would crank but not fire, or it would try and burn the car down. (hence the title)
New ignition switch behind the lock cylinder in the column, and boom. perfect.
Even if this is not the problem, there are great diagrams, tools, ideas, and solutions by mainly @Mattax , @67Dart273 and others. Burnt Wire
 
shittyslant6 said:
I just went through this with my car. Its only a slant, but It had nearly the same symptoms. It would not crank sometimes, it would crank but not fire, or it would try and burn the car down. (hence the title)
New ignition switch behind the lock cylinder in the column, and boom. perfect.
Even if this is not the problem, there are great diagrams, tools, ideas, and solutions by mainly @Mattax , @67Dart273 and others. Burnt Wire
Click to expand...

Ok I'll go buy a new ignition switch.
 
DentalDart said:
Ok I'll go buy a new ignition switch.
Click to expand...
now wait a minute.
This is just a suggestion. There are many other things that are different on a v8 car.
It is my highest recommendation that you do not just throw parts at it randomly. please do some other research, get a test light, along with some of the other tools in that thread.
I am only 16, the ONLY reason that I even replied to this is because I went through what sounded like the same problem.
DO NOT take what I have said as fact. Hell, take what nobody says as fact. we are only in internet land and not there. we do not know your car, its quirks, the EXACT situation in which this problem takes place, and about a MILLION other factors.
 
Solenoid getting hot? Bad battery to starter connection? Bad relay?

EDIT, I really should learn to read the entire post. Agree with @Ricks70Duster340 , get a new relay.
 
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You've already diagnosed it. You said you bump the starter relay and it starts. Damn. Put a starter relay on it.
 
agreed, starter relay: when its a no crank condition , jam a screwdriver between the threaded lug (BA) and the ignition switch input (SOL) and it will crank if the starter is not getting heat soak and opening internally. If it cranks when bypassed its the ignition switch. If no crank its the starter. Dont count out the Neutral safety switch from the trans but thats a longshot. Ha, reread it and it sounds like you already figured the issue out. Put a tet lamp on the SOL lug and attempt to start it, if the lamp glow, you know the ignition is getting 12V to that input.
18313d1521178175-73-b-body-starter-relay-question-starter-relay.jpg
 
For me, it seems like the starter relay failing is a function of sitting unused for a while. Maybe after you replace it and are satisfied you have found your problem, you could pry open the cover tangs of the old relay, and take a look-see at what is preventing it from operating properly. What have you got to lose at that point?
 
You guys are way too eager to throw money at stuff. Learn to troubleshoot. Learn to check stuff so you KNOW what is the matter

Possilbles:

FIRST start by "wiggle testing" and makiing sure starter connections are tight, as well as connections at relay and battery

The "circuit path" to fire up the starter between the ignition switch and starter relay

I am starting with the switch because you say the headlights work. The headlights get power at a splice in the black ammeter wire and so does the ignition switch. This means the switch and headlights both should have power, unless the splice failed which can happen but is rare

I am stopping at the output of the starter relay because you say you "jumped" it which means the wire going from the starter relay to the starter solenoid is good. By the way THOSE wires can fail, as the engine moves and vibrates "down there" and can break the connection in the wire

So the path is ignition switch--------through the start contacts---out the switch---through the switch connector (normally yellow wire)-- through the bulkhead connector---------to one of the flag terminals on the starter relay----through the relay coil------out on the remaining flag terminal---------to the neutral safety switch wire--------down to the transmission-----------to the neutral safety switch connector-----------to the neutral safety switch------------and to ground when in park or neutral

Read that all carefully each point noted is a POSSIBLE TROUBLE. Each terminal, each connector You could buy a new relay, a new ignition switch, and a new neutral safety switch and go to the work of putting them in the car only to find out that a poor connection was the culprit.

Get a test light, a meter, and a couple/ three "aligator clip" jumper leads and learn how to troubleshoot

1........Making certain the car is in park, look at the relay and pull the flag connector that is NOT yellow. Clip that relay terminal to ground, and try to crank the engine USING THE KEY. If it cranks, the problem is in the NSS switch, wireing, OR THE SHIFTER needs adjustment

2.....If the above does not crank the car, leave the terminal grounded above. Take a screwdriver/ jumper llead. Remove the second flag terminal (yellow). Now jumper power to the now exposed terminal, making sure the first is still grounded. Does it crank? No? Replace the relay. Does it crank? Yes? Trouble is in yellow start wire, bulkhead connector, ignition switch connector, or ignition switch

3....Assuming jumpering relay in (2) cranked engine, hook everything up "normal." Now go inside, access ignition switch (unbolt it from panel) and get it down where you can access it. Disconnect battery ground while doing that. When you have it down, "safe" and accessible, reconnect battery

Now acces the "S" connection (yellow) on ignition switch and back probe the terminal with a meter or test light. Twist key to start. Do you have voltage? Yes? Does the engine crank? No? then trouble is likely is bulkhead connector terminal. If it does NOT show voltage, make sure that terminal in the connector is good at the switch, and if so, replace ignition siwtch.
 
67Dart273 said:
You guys are way too eager to throw money at stuff. Learn to troubleshoot. Learn to check stuff so you KNOW what is the matter

Possilbles:

FIRST start by "wiggle testing" and makiing sure starter connections are tight, as well as connections at relay and battery

The "circuit path" to fire up the starter between the ignition switch and starter relay

I am starting with the switch because you say the headlights work. The headlights get power at a splice in the black ammeter wire and so does the ignition switch. This means the switch and headlights both should have power, unless the splice failed which can happen but is rare

I am stopping at the output of the starter relay because you say you "jumped" it which means the wire going from the starter relay to the starter solenoid is good. By the way THOSE wires can fail, as the engine moves and vibrates "down there" and can break the connection in the wire

So the path is ignition switch--------through the start contacts---out the switch---through the switch connector (normally yellow wire)-- through the bulkhead connector---------to one of the flag terminals on the starter relay----through the relay coil------out on the remaining flag terminal---------to the neutral safety switch wire--------down to the transmission-----------to the neutral safety switch connector-----------to the neutral safety switch------------and to ground when in park or neutral

Read that all carefully each point noted is a POSSIBLE TROUBLE. Each terminal, each connector You could buy a new relay, a new ignition switch, and a new neutral safety switch and go to the work of putting them in the car only to find out that a poor connection was the culprit.

Get a test light, a meter, and a couple/ three "aligator clip" jumper leads and learn how to troubleshoot

1........Making certain the car is in park, look at the relay and pull the flag connector that is NOT yellow. Clip that relay terminal to ground, and try to crank the engine USING THE KEY. If it cranks, the problem is in the NSS switch, wireing, OR THE SHIFTER needs adjustment

2.....If the above does not crank the car, leave the terminal grounded above. Take a screwdriver/ jumper llead. Remove the second flag terminal (yellow). Now jumper power to the now exposed terminal, making sure the first is still grounded. Does it crank? No? Replace the relay. Does it crank? Yes? Trouble is in yellow start wire, bulkhead connector, ignition switch connector, or ignition switch

3....Assuming jumpering relay in (2) cranked engine, hook everything up "normal." Now go inside, access ignition switch (unbolt it from panel) and get it down where you can access it. Disconnect battery ground while doing that. When you have it down, "safe" and accessible, reconnect battery

Now acces the "S" connection (yellow) on ignition switch and back probe the terminal with a meter or test light. Twist key to start. Do you have voltage? Yes? Does the engine crank? No? then trouble is likely is bulkhead connector terminal. If it does NOT show voltage, make sure that terminal in the connector is good at the switch, and if so, replace ignition siwtch.
Click to expand...
Maybe we just don't want to type that much!!!
 
RustyRatRod said:
You've already diagnosed it. You said you bump the starter relay and it starts. Damn. Put a starter relay on it.
Click to expand...

Lol Thanks! Can always count on you with your quick and to the point replies that are 99% of the time the correct reply...

I didn't know I diagnosed it just was trying to get the car to start and it did haha.
 
DentalDart said:
Lol Thanks! Can always count on you with your quick and to the point replies that are 99% of the time the correct reply...

I didn't know I diagnosed it just was trying to get the car to start and it did haha.
Click to expand...

Technically, you didn't diagnose in the way Del is talkin about, but for "me" that's enough for me to buy one. IT was anyway and it fixed mine. lol
 
67Dart273 said:
You guys are way too eager to throw money at stuff. Learn to troubleshoot. Learn to check stuff so you KNOW what is the matter

Possilbles:

FIRST start by "wiggle testing" and makiing sure starter connections are tight, as well as connections at relay and battery

The "circuit path" to fire up the starter between the ignition switch and starter relay

I am starting with the switch because you say the headlights work. The headlights get power at a splice in the black ammeter wire and so does the ignition switch. This means the switch and headlights both should have power, unless the splice failed which can happen but is rare

I am stopping at the output of the starter relay because you say you "jumped" it which means the wire going from the starter relay to the starter solenoid is good. By the way THOSE wires can fail, as the engine moves and vibrates "down there" and can break the connection in the wire

So the path is ignition switch--------through the start contacts---out the switch---through the switch connector (normally yellow wire)-- through the bulkhead connector---------to one of the flag terminals on the starter relay----through the relay coil------out on the remaining flag terminal---------to the neutral safety switch wire--------down to the transmission-----------to the neutral safety switch connector-----------to the neutral safety switch------------and to ground when in park or neutral

Read that all carefully each point noted is a POSSIBLE TROUBLE. Each terminal, each connector You could buy a new relay, a new ignition switch, and a new neutral safety switch and go to the work of putting them in the car only to find out that a poor connection was the culprit.

Get a test light, a meter, and a couple/ three "aligator clip" jumper leads and learn how to troubleshoot

1........Making certain the car is in park, look at the relay and pull the flag connector that is NOT yellow. Clip that relay terminal to ground, and try to crank the engine USING THE KEY. If it cranks, the problem is in the NSS switch, wireing, OR THE SHIFTER needs adjustment

2.....If the above does not crank the car, leave the terminal grounded above. Take a screwdriver/ jumper llead. Remove the second flag terminal (yellow). Now jumper power to the now exposed terminal, making sure the first is still grounded. Does it crank? No? Replace the relay. Does it crank? Yes? Trouble is in yellow start wire, bulkhead connector, ignition switch connector, or ignition switch

3....Assuming jumpering relay in (2) cranked engine, hook everything up "normal." Now go inside, access ignition switch (unbolt it from panel) and get it down where you can access it. Disconnect battery ground while doing that. When you have it down, "safe" and accessible, reconnect battery

Now acces the "S" connection (yellow) on ignition switch and back probe the terminal with a meter or test light. Twist key to start. Do you have voltage? Yes? Does the engine crank? No? then trouble is likely is bulkhead connector terminal. If it does NOT show voltage, make sure that terminal in the connector is good at the switch, and if so, replace ignition siwtch.
Click to expand...

AJ? :poke::lol:

Just kidding. Thanks for the information outlined above. I read most of it and will have to go through it again to read over what I skimmed... I know I need to get a electrical tester thingy... but I really hate electrical stuff and keep avoiding getting anything that pertains to the electrical system... I figured I would "learn" more about it when I replace the wiring harness one day...

Another reason I don't want to start trying to diagnose and fight the electrical learning crap is because I am packing up my house to move (most likely to Missouri) and learning to diagnose what I think of as Chinese is hard atm...

I should quit making excuses on why not to do it correctly... :rofl:
 
pishta said:
agreed, starter relay: when its a no crank condition , jam a screwdriver between the threaded lug (BA) and the ignition switch input (SOL) and it will crank if the starter is not getting heat soak and opening internally. If it cranks when bypassed its the ignition switch. If no crank its the starter. Dont count out the Neutral safety switch from the trans but thats a longshot. Ha, reread it and it sounds like you already figured the issue out. Put a tet lamp on the SOL lug and attempt to start it, if the lamp glow, you know the ignition is getting 12V to that input.
View attachment 1715734357
Click to expand...

I don't have a tester... I am avoiding buying anything to do any electrical work for as long as I can haha.... I did however buy a fire extinguisher just in case... But if the car catches on fire I might let it burn down, it's insured for enough to pick up a real nice GTS car lol. :icon_fU:
 
rustycowll69 said:
For me, it seems like the starter relay failing is a function of sitting unused for a while. Maybe after you replace it and are satisfied you have found your problem, you could pry open the cover tangs of the old relay, and take a look-see at what is preventing it from operating properly. What have you got to lose at that point?
Click to expand...

Unused??? Dang! I only went 2 weeks without driving the car, man you make me seem like a bad person for not driving it enough lol.

I like breaking stuff open and not knowing how to put it back together, that is right up my alley. :D
 
shittyslant6 said:
now wait a minute.
This is just a suggestion. There are many other things that are different on a v8 car.
It is my highest recommendation that you do not just throw parts at it randomly. please do some other research, get a test light, along with some of the other tools in that thread.
I am only 16, the ONLY reason that I even replied to this is because I went through what sounded like the same problem.
DO NOT take what I have said as fact. Hell, take what nobody says as fact. we are only in internet land and not there. we do not know your car, its quirks, the EXACT situation in which this problem takes place, and about a MILLION other factors.
Click to expand...

I don't like waiting, we have to go get ice cream after school... I like just buying all the new parts and putting them on hoping one of the new parts fixed the problem :popcorn:

Speaking of problems... My car is to slow... We need to make it faster any new parts that can help with that problem :rofl:
 
Do you not own a test light?
 
DentalDart said:
No... I havent ever bought one of those. I get tools as I go. I pretty much had basic tools when I got this car, now I've accumulated a ton of tools to do all kinds of things.
Click to expand...

I understand and can relate. You can do a lot of things with a simple test light, though. NOT a circuit tester, but a plain old test light.
 
My new chinesium starter relay lasted about 20-25 starts and quit. Painted my old ugly one and reinstalled it.
 
DentalDart said:
I don't like waiting, we have to go get ice cream after school... I like just buying all the new parts and putting them on hoping one of the new parts fixed the problem :popcorn:

Speaking of problems... My car is to slow... We need to make it faster any new parts that can help with that problem :rofl:
Click to expand...
yes, but you will learn less that way, and you will miss out on the whole experience of fixing it.
If all you want to do is drive it with zero problems and have it just work, then, well, no. Its 50+ years old it will break and you will need to fix it. Also, throwing parts at it could take longer than finding the EXACT problem and just buying the correct part or finding that it was something stupid and fixing it in 2 seconds.
Sure, you could buy all the things you have not replaced yet, then you will have spent more money, and time than what was needed.
But thats just me.
 
shittyslant6 said:
yes, but you will learn less that way, and you will miss out on the whole experience of fixing it.
If all you want to do is drive it with zero problems and have it just work, then, well, no. Its 50+ years old it will break and you will need to fix it. Also, throwing parts at it could take longer than finding the EXACT problem and just buying the correct part or finding that it was something stupid and fixing it in 2 seconds.
Sure, you could buy all the things you have not replaced yet, then you will have spent more money, and time than what was needed.
But thats just me.
Click to expand...

I know, I'm being a smart ***. Lol
 
Del, as usual, has you covered.
The only thing I'd like to add is that the starter relay is particularly robust.
___________________
I changed the location of mine to the passenger frame rail up close to the firewall, where my cable from the battery-in-the-trunk terminates. From there I cabled over to the starter. Then brought the signal wires over to the relay.
Now this location is only a few inches from the headers, and there is no way you can get booster cables down there, and not even your hands until the headers cool off. So hot-wiring the car or even installing a bump-starter tool is a real challenge.
The thing is, the relay I installed in year 1999 came out of my recovery box, and could have been new in 1968. IDK. And it is still down there, and still works. That is why I say, that IMO, it is particularly robust.
I wanna say that maybe they are not all as robust as mine, but I wouldn't say that mine is a one-of-a kind, altho, RRR might have something to say about that.
I have taken those apart, just as I take everything apart, just to see how it works. I been doing that since I was old enough to sit up by myself, much to the chagrin of my now poor dead mother. I can tell you that the guts look to me to be pretty tough.
As to why the thing works cold and not hot, I can only agree with Del, that you better check your battery connections and engine ground.

And in conclusion, I'll give you what I think, is a really great clue;
I once had a 92 Dakota that kept doing that, but quit after I removed the starter, and cleaned the starter to BH interface.
Same on my 1980 Volare. Now that I think of it, I'm starting to remember other cases...... Aluminum "rusts" differently than iron, and it seems that even a fine layer of oxidation can be troublesome.
Happy HotRodding

BTW, there is an easy diagnosis for this, but you need a helper. Have the helper turn the key to start and hold it there, while you are under the car. Take a hammer along and tap the starter up near the BH interface. If it springs to life, either the starter has a bad internal connection, or the ground is bad. With the starter system now known to work, from this point; clamp a jumper cable on the starter, and take it back to the battery; if it works now, then clean the interface.

If you want a short cut, just do the jumper cable thing first, and hit the key yourself. I just like smacking starters
 
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