Carb recommendations???

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doopdoop67

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So I bought this 67 dart with the slant 6 I picked up a Clifford manifold and headers for it on Craigslist but I don't know what kind of carb to run with it? Any one have any advice for me on that? I have the 2 or 4 barrel manifold. Still in highschool so It's hard because I'm broke so I'm picking up extra jobs trying to make my car fun. Thanks folks
 
I'm confused, is it a 2 or 4 bbl. intake?

A 390 Holley for the 4bbl.
There are various size 2bbl. carbs. I would find out the largest one with the least amount of emmisions on it for use.
 
390 with vacuum secondarys would perfect definitely don't go over 500 cfm.

After you do that if you really want pep you need gears and deep ones at that you'd be lucky to do much more than highway speed in the quarter mile. And even to use up your relatively short powerband you'd be looking at probably around 5.13:1 which is obviously not street friendly but shows the up hill battle your against. 3.55:1 would be my minimum a step up one or two levels would be better (3.73:1-3.91:1).
 
I hope you realize that putting on a 4bbl requires supporting changes. The 4bbl alone will likely not do much but look nice. Being in highschool, this gets expensive in a hurry.
I read where you said headers. But again, you need supporting mods.
For sure these items will help breathing, but you have to look at the bigger picture.
The only road to horsepower is more torque, and the only road to that in a given engine, is pull in a bigger air/fuel charge.
So now you bolt on a bigger carb, and the headers, but what have you gained? The engine is still stuck in it's earlier operating range, and if it was not carb restricted then, the new 4bbl won't help one teensy bit (In fact if it has smaller primaries it may be even slower), until the engine starts to really rev; at about which time you either run into a speed limit or a rev limit, or a mechanical limit, or the limits of the cam and compression, or the exhaust pipe/muffler.
So supporting mods are; camshaft/compression,valve-springs,larger exhaust,freeflowing muffler,rear gears,and converter.
There is no downside to the headers, Slantys can use the help.
There is no downside to what you are contemplating,except perception and expectation. If you go the distance, you will be rewarded.But just to bolt on these two items, I fear you will be disappointed, and your bank account will be empty, and the ratio of dollars spent to performance increase will not seem to have been worth it.
Successful builds abound on FABO, so I really wish you every success. But please do not let employment steal your education.
 
I have a 650 Holley vacuum secondary on my slant it went from high 19s in the quarter to mid 16s and that's all I changed I've always had long tube headers but my internals are not stock either.
 
I hope you realize that putting on a 4bbl requires supporting changes. The 4bbl alone will likely not do much but look nice. Being in highschool, this gets expensive in a hurry.
I read where you said headers. But again, you need supporting mods.
For sure these items will help breathing, but you have to look at the bigger picture.
The only road to horsepower is more torque, and the only road to that in a given engine, is pull in a bigger air/fuel charge.
So now you bolt on a bigger carb, and the headers, but what have you gained? The engine is still stuck in it's earlier operating range, and if it was not carb restricted then, the new 4bbl won't help one teensy bit (In fact if it has smaller primaries it may be even slower), until the engine starts to really rev; at about which time you either run into a speed limit or a rev limit, or a mechanical limit, or the limits of the cam and compression, or the exhaust pipe/muffler.
So supporting mods are; camshaft/compression,valve-springs,larger exhaust,freeflowing muffler,rear gears,and converter.
There is no downside to the headers, Slantys can use the help.
There is no downside to what you are contemplating,except perception and expectation. If you go the distance, you will be rewarded.But just to bolt on these two items, I fear you will be disappointed, and your bank account will be empty, and the ratio of dollars spent to performance increase will not seem to have been worth it.
Successful builds abound on FABO, so I really wish you every success. But please do not let employment steal your education.

Totally understand what you are saying. School is always first for me, I got a good deal on the headers and manifold so I bought them. I want to put a cam in it and springs and all that. Just want a good slanty to have a little fun in.
 
The biggest single improvement to the slant six engine, is to increase the compression ratio. As long as you stay within reasonable limits, there is absolutly no down side. It will improve torque, horsepower, and fuel milage. It is without question the best bang for the buck. It will also allow other modifactions to be more effetive. The problems arise with how much can you do, yourself, and "project creep". Milling the head is not expensive, in itself. But the labor to pay someone else the R&R the head adds a lot. Then the question arises "while the head is off, do I do a valve job", "should I do some porting", "should I install larger valves"? That is known as project creep.

My 64 Valiant has a 170 slant, with a milled head, a little bowl blending, but stock valves, 9.5 to 1 compression. Very, very mild cam. stock intake and exhaust manifold, 1bbl carb, 2 inch exhaust pipe, Electronic ignition with HEI. When running that much compression, recurving the distributer is required. I really can't remember the rear axle ratio (either 2.92 or 3.23). Three speed stick. This car is very peppy up to about 4,000 rpm, and gets upper 20's mpg. It does have some other mods that make slight imrovements, but for the average person not cost effective. It was bored and honed with a block plate, a small cut off the deck to make sure it was true. Rotating assy balanced.
 
Student budget:
Super Six 2bbl intake.
Early 68-70 (no smog) 318 Carter bbd
Clifford Header
Mopar Electronic Ignition.
All doable on the cheap. horse trading, begging, pleading. :)
 
Student budget:
Super Six 2bbl intake.
Early 68-70 (no smog) 318 Carter bbd
Clifford Header
Mopar Electronic Ignition.
All doable on the cheap. horse trading, begging, pleading. :)
This is a good student budget list. But since the 4 bbl manifold is in hand, if a 390 cfm carb comes by cheaply, it won't hurt to use it.

Make the exhaust at least 2-1/4: or even 2-12"; that will help too.
 
How much can you do yourself ?
Is the biggest budget problem

Just make sure you keep it to weekend projects, if you do too much at once sometimes it never makes it back to the road my bronco is an example of that lol
like Charrlie_S said project creep.

Eg... you gather all the parts to make a rear end swap than one weekend with a few buds swap it out.
Gears help since your engine is half the size of a 440 it makes half the torque.

If you have know how and cash to do the Head mill for compression I'd pick up a couple of cheap ones from the wrecking yard and practice porting on one and rebuild the other with milling and porting (don't get carried away) and do your cam change at that time.

The head is the biggest obstacle to make any power with a /6 for one you got two less intake ports than an 8 and the ones you have poor flow numbers and even after porting you only got something the flows probably less than a 318 which might get you in 1 hp per cubic inch.
 
How much can you do yourself ?
Is the biggest budget problem

Just make sure you keep it to weekend projects, if you do too much at once sometimes it never makes it back to the road my bronco is an example of that lol
like Charrlie_S said project creep.

Eg... you gather all the parts to make a rear end swap than one weekend with a few buds swap it out.
Gears help since your engine is half the size of a 440 it makes half the torque.

If you have know how and cash to do the Head mill for compression I'd pick up a couple of cheap ones from the wrecking yard and practice porting on one and rebuild the other with milling and porting (don't get carried away) and do your cam change at that time.

The head is the biggest obstacle to make any power with a /6 for one you got two less intake ports than an 8 and the ones you have poor flow numbers and even after porting you only got something the flows probably less than a 318 which might get you in 1 hp per cubic inch.

gppd friend of ,one has a machine shop he can do the head with me .
 
Well I'm gonna disagree with a bunch of the other people here. First of all, don't get caught up in thinking you have to do too much. Doing too much is the first mistake. Make sure you know what your goals are, because following other peoples goals will lead you astray especially if they are on the racetrack and you are not.

The biggest difference is that on the street, torque is what you feel motivating your butt, while on the track it's peak HP at full throttle that gives the power to beat the other guy all the way down the track. these are related, but very different things. it takes real building to get peak HP, but you can up your torque relatively cheaply and easily for street fun.

The next thing to know is that when it comes to mild hop-ups from a street motor, you'll gain first by increasing the intake side before the exhaust side (you performance guys hold up and hear me out). Why? Because the motor is a big air pump, and it's easier to blow than suck. This is why heads with unequal size valves put the big valves on the intake, not the exhaust side, The motor will blow the exhaust out, but it will feel limitation more on the intake side first. So for a simple hop up this is why it makes more sense to upgrade the carb first before the exhaust. A 4-barrel on stock manifolds makes more sense than headers with a one-barrel carb.

So you're on the right track with the four-barrel intake. Sure, your potential will be limited after that by the exhaust but that's ok.

So next, what carb? Keep it simple and small, a nice old squarebore carter like an AFB or AVS will work nicely on your squarebore intake manifold. You don't want a big modern spreadbore carb, it's too much. Keeping it down to 500 or 600 cfm is plenty on your 225.

And contrary to what some have said, I find a 4 barrel to be not only better performing but better fuel mileage than a 2-barrel! Why? Well, the primary bores of a four-barrel by themselves are more economical than the one-size-fits-all- bores of a one-barrel or 2barrel. Sure, if you put your foot down you can also burn more gas. But don't assume that a four barrel will necessarily hurt your mileage. You'll be surprised at how much smoother it is, too. (those who say it will do nothing - I bet they haven't swapped out a one-barrel lately)

Now in order to install that four barrel you're going to have to change the gas pedal and linkage on your car. look on ebay for a 'v8 gas pedal' for an a-body. What that really means is a non-one-barrel pedal, which has a cable linkage instead of the weird torsion rod linkage that slant six one-barrels have. But that's an easy bolt-on change, not too expensive.

So with that upgrade you will definitely increase your 'fun' quotient! And you could take it one step further by installing slant six headers.

But at that point I would suggest you stop. Why? Because anything more than that and you're really getting into engine building, machine work, and a much more substantial budget. And at that point, when you spend that coin, the slant six will give you less bang for your budget than a V8.

Much better is to increase your fun by upgrading the brakes and suspension - at very least swap the 9" drums, if you have them, to 10", which are at least enough. And even better, swap up to later disk brakes. New torsion bar front springs are an inexpensive way to massively improve handling, and if you get into it you might even consider a sway bar.

PS - final word of advice, if you're in high school: never sell your car. When you're 50 it will be worth so much to you to still have it, and then you'll have the budget to turn it into the race car of your dreams. Until then do some upgrades, warm it up, enjoy it, and don't let it turn into a project that stays off the road for very long!
 
I agree that for a street car you want torque, in the lower to mid range. A 4 bbl carb will do nothing in the low range, and only a little in the mid range. The same with headers, but a free flowing exhaust system will help a little (larger pipe, and low restriction muffler). I stand by my original reccommendation, to increase the compression ratio. If you can do the R&R of the head yourself, the machine shop charge for milling the head, should not be more then $150. Of course you will need to decide if you want to spend additional money for a valve job. The head might not even need it (but probably will).
Gaskets would be less then $50 so looking at $200 to up the compression. That will increase torque over the complete power band. I do agree a four barrel carb can get just as good fuel milage, as a 1 or 2bbl carb, if it is a small 4 bbl, and you stay out of the secondarys. Increasing the compression is still the "best bang for the buck", if doing only one thing. I bet the manifold and carb cost more then $200. But they are "eye candy". you can't see the head mill with the engine assembled.
PS: 67 "A" Body slant did not use the "twisty" carb linkage. 1966 was last year for that.
 
PS: 67 "A" Body slant did not use the "twisty" carb linkage. 1966 was last year for that.

D'oh, he's got a '67! I'm living in the early A world as usual. losing those weird linkages did everybody a favor. So a 67-up slant six car does not need to change gas pedal when changing to a two or four-barrel carb?
 
Well I'm gonna disagree with a bunch of the other people here. First of all, don't get caught up in thinking you have to do too much. Doing too much is the first mistake. Make sure you know what your goals are, because following other peoples goals will lead you astray especially if they are on the racetrack and you are not.

The biggest difference is that on the street, torque is what you feel motivating your butt, while on the track it's peak HP at full throttle that gives the power to beat the other guy all the way down the track. these are related, but very different things. it takes real building to get peak HP, but you can up your torque relatively cheaply and easily for street fun.

The next thing to know is that when it comes to mild hop-ups from a street motor, you'll gain first by increasing the intake side before the exhaust side (you performance guys hold up and hear me out). Why? Because the motor is a big air pump, and it's easier to blow than suck. This is why heads with unequal size valves put the big valves on the intake, not the exhaust side, The motor will blow the exhaust out, but it will feel limitation more on the intake side first. So for a simple hop up this is why it makes more sense to upgrade the carb first before the exhaust. A 4-barrel on stock manifolds makes more sense than headers with a one-barrel carb.

So you're on the right track with the four-barrel intake. Sure, your potential will be limited after that by the exhaust but that's ok.

So next, what carb? Keep it simple and small, a nice old squarebore carter like an AFB or AVS will work nicely on your squarebore intake manifold. You don't want a big modern spreadbore carb, it's too much. Keeping it down to 500 or 600 cfm is plenty on your 225.

And contrary to what some have said, I find a 4 barrel to be not only better performing but better fuel mileage than a 2-barrel! Why? Well, the primary bores of a four-barrel by themselves are more economical than the one-size-fits-all- bores of a one-barrel or 2barrel. Sure, if you put your foot down you can also burn more gas. But don't assume that a four barrel will necessarily hurt your mileage. You'll be surprised at how much smoother it is, too. (those who say it will do nothing - I bet they haven't swapped out a one-barrel lately)

Now in order to install that four barrel you're going to have to change the gas pedal and linkage on your car. look on ebay for a 'v8 gas pedal' for an a-body. What that really means is a non-one-barrel pedal, which has a cable linkage instead of the weird torsion rod linkage that slant six one-barrels have. But that's an easy bolt-on change, not too expensive.

So with that upgrade you will definitely increase your 'fun' quotient! And you could take it one step further by installing slant six headers.

But at that point I would suggest you stop. Why? Because anything more than that and you're really getting into engine building, machine work, and a much more substantial budget. And at that point, when you spend that coin, the slant six will give you less bang for your budget than a V8.

Much better is to increase your fun by upgrading the brakes and suspension - at very least swap the 9" drums, if you have them, to 10", which are at least enough. And even better, swap up to later disk brakes. New torsion bar front springs are an inexpensive way to massively improve handling, and if you get into it you might even consider a sway bar.

PS - final word of advice, if you're in high school: never sell your car. When you're 50 it will be worth so much to you to still have it, and then you'll have the budget to turn it into the race car of your dreams. Until then do some upgrades, warm it up, enjoy it, and don't let it turn into a project that stays off the road for very long!
Thanks that is good advice, this is actually just my project car. I have a daily drive which is a 1990 blazer. I also have headers for the slant 6
 
Just finished that conversion from the twisty carb linkage. I get you PaulClark.
 
What did you do to the motor??

It's .060 over I can't remember the cam specifics but it's a mopar 17 second cam 4.20" stroke dual valve springs domed pistons and a .010 shaved head offenhouser 4bbl intake Holley 650 cfm vacuum secondary, and Clifford long tube headers and the block is a solid deck not an open cylinder.
:burnout:
 
It's .060 over I can't remember the cam specifics but it's a mopar 17 second cam 4.20" stroke dual valve springs domed pistons and a .010 shaved head offenhouser 4bbl intake Holley 650 cfm vacuum secondary, and Clifford long tube headers and the block is a solid deck not an open cylinder.
:burnout:

That cam should be the P 4529341. Hydraulic .420 lift 250 dur. It really does not require dual vave springs. As for pistons, are you sure they are domed? Domed pistons have not been available for the slant six (except for custom racing units, high dollar) for many years. What is your compression ratio? Most domed pistons would give a nominal CR of about 12-1. With that cam, you don't want the CR too high. 650 carb is a little big, but being a vac secondary, will be more forgiving. All iron block slant six engines are closed deck, only the aluminum slants were open deck.
 
That cam should be the P 4529341. Hydraulic .420 lift 250 dur. It really does not require dual vave springs. As for pistons, are you sure they are domed? Domed pistons have not been available for the slant six (except for custom racing units, high dollar) for many years. What is your compression ratio? Most domed pistons would give a nominal CR of about 12-1. With that cam, you don't want the CR too high. 650 carb is a little big, but being a vac secondary, will be more forgiving. All iron block slant six engines are closed deck, only the aluminum slants were open deck.

The 650 is perfect, my grandpa recommend it to me and it dropped my et by 2 seconds. The compression is 11:1 the dual springs are because my grandpa had them laying around for a 318 (which is the same size) also theres a lot of stuff in storage that I still haven't been through yet.
 
since your engine is half the size of a 440 it makes half the torque.

If you have know how and cash to do the Head mill for compression I'd pick up a couple of cheap ones from the wrecking yard and practice porting on one and rebuild the other with milling and porting (don't get carried away)
The head is the biggest obstacle to make any power with a /6 for one you got two less intake ports than an 8 and the ones you have poor flow numbers and even after porting you only got something the flows probably less than a 318 which might get you in 1 hp per cubic inch.
I'd like to correct some "fuzzy math" here. Your 225 is exactly half
of the pop lowdeck 451ci stroker. Two slantys would have 12 intake vs 8 for the same
displacement, and well ported /6 heads are at 200cfm int. give or take 10, that totals a
conservative 2280 cfm vs 1760 cfm(8 stock BB head ports) for the same 450cid.
The ports also flow more air w/a smaller CA and valve, which builds more torque
than say the larger inefficient port w 2.08 valves. The real problem is the engine is just
plain small,period.And has to achieve much higher bmep numbers to compete.
doopdoop, search this forum and read, as the carb size/choice has been discussed
many times, and you'll find good info as well as important cfm comparing info.You just
CANNOT look at cfm ratings to compare only, esp 2 vs 4bbl ratings, they are not the
same. For example a 500cfm 2bbl is only equal to a 353.6cfm 4bbl.
Your slanty will respond well to a CR bump, but don't spend much time "porting" if
you're not going up in valve size.
 
I'd like to correct some "fuzzy math" here. Your 225 is exactly half
of the pop lowdeck 451ci stroker. Two slantys would have 12 intake vs 8 for the same
displacement, and well ported /6 heads are at 200cfm int. give or take 10, that totals a
conservative 2280 cfm vs 1760 cfm(8 stock BB head ports) for the same 450cid.
The ports also flow more air w/a smaller CA and valve, which builds more torque
than say the larger inefficient port w 2.08 valves. The real problem is the engine is just
plain small,period.And has to achieve much higher bmep numbers to compete.
doopdoop, search this forum and read, as the carb size/choice has been discussed
many times, and you'll find good info as well as important cfm comparing info.You just
CANNOT look at cfm ratings to compare only, esp 2 vs 4bbl ratings, they are not the
same. For example a 500cfm 2bbl is only equal to a 353.6cfm 4bbl.
Your slanty will respond well to a CR bump, but don't spend much time "porting" if
you're not going up in valve size.

The point I was trying to make the ports flows so bad that stock I'd have a hard time believing you hit 200 hp, and with mild cam 4 bbl and headers I doubt you'd break 175 hp without head work.

I know 225 ain't exactly half of a 440 but close enough and where torque is tied to cid (it don't greatly very per cubic inch compared to hp) and my point was to take it to an extreme that to get similar torque to the ground you'd need about twice the gear since you have about half the cid (torque) just to show the up hill battle of the /6.

And yes 4bbl and 2 bbl are rated different cause there measured at different vacuum levels 1.5 and 3 respectively. And a carb actually peak cfm is dependent on how much vacuum there is at full throttle. So for a 4bbl under 1.5 would have less than rated cfm and above would have more. Just the greater the vacuum level the more hp your losing to pumping loss. To go with another discussion on another thread about carbs, a 1050 cfm carb on a engine of .5 vacuum would be actually flowing way less than the 1050 cfm rating and not over cfm'd and makes more hp cause of less pumping loss and may come at a cost of driveablity because everything is unfortunately a trade off.

P.S. six packs aren't really flowing over 1100 cfm probably more like 850 cause of the whole 4bbl 2bbl thing.
 
The point I was trying to make the ports flows so bad that stock I'd have a hard time believing you hit 200 hp, and with mild cam 4 bbl and headers I doubt you'd break 175 hp without head work.

I know 225 ain't exactly half of a 440 but close

And yes 4bbl and 2 bbl are rated different cause there measured at different vacuum levels 1.5 and 3 respectively. And a carb actually peak cfm is dependent on how much vacuum there is at full throttle. So for a 4bbl under 1.5 would have less than rated cfm and above would have more. Just the greater the vacuum level the more hp your losing to pumping loss. To go with another discussion on another thread about carbs, a 1050 cfm carb on a engine of .5 vacuum would be actually flowing way less than the 1050 cfm
P.S. six packs aren't really flowing over 1100 cfm probably more like 850 cause of the whole 4bbl 2bbl thing.
Lol, I wasn't really harshin' the 440 approximation, mainly the "two less ports"
concept. I simply chose the 451 for my illustration. A 1050 carb flows [email protected]"Hg,
and a 6pk is (1)350 center &(2)500 outboards,[email protected]"Hg & [email protected]"Hg- the std.
4bbl rating depression. :coffee2:
 
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