charging issues

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after all the threads and issues with charging problems,( and i have made my share of suggestions) and instead of searching every where for answers, i wanted my own thread for reference. heres the deal, brand new battery, good alternator (or at least it was) new voltage regulator (thats not to say it is a good one) engine to body ground good, battery to engine ground good, starter relay to body ground good. i have noticed lately that my alternator gauge has been gradually showing more and more of a charge when the rpms are up and more of a discharge in gear, but is pretty much centered when idling at about 700-750 rpms. today i went down to the store and i hauled *** to get back home because it was showing such a charge i did not want to risk the thing catching on fire somewhere. the car is a 73 duster with a V8.in the past i have always been able to fix the problem replacing the above parts.could this be as simple as the alternator going bad or something worse. i dont have a tester or meter at the moment, maybe i am overlooking something simple that you guys can help me with? with the car running, i pull off the green wire field (see pic) the rpms increase and the gauge shows a discharge. when i pull the blue wire off, nothing happens but the gauge show a discharge. if i switch them, i get the same exact result at their respective fields. i took pics while i was driving to show what it is doing.the first pic is at idle. the second is in gear and the third is driving down the road. the gauge increases with rpms but stops where you see at its highest point no matter the rpms. can this car burn up wiring with gauge showing such a charge? is there anything normal about this?i have felt around inside and out for any warm wires and i didnt feel anything but i couldnt get to all of them. im trying to be as clear as possible. thanks for your help.
 

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Any aftermarket accessories like a high power stereo, amplifier, lights, etc? What brand is the voltage regulator (please don't say autozone). How about the alternator? What is the size and capacity of your battery? How long between trips (sitting) and how long are you normally on the road (charge time)? Did you clean the battery terminals and posts when installing battery?
 
rob_robinson87 said:
Any aftermarket accessories like a high power stereo, amplifier, lights, etc? What brand is the voltage regulator (please don't say autozone). How about the alternator? What is the size and capacity of your battery? How long between trips (sitting) and how long are you normally on the road (charge time)? Did you clean the battery terminals and posts when installing battery?
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no stereo at all, only a sunpro tach,no other accessories at all. cables are all super clean, the VR is a mopar electronic, but is not brand new, the battery is a brand new 750 CCA , and lately i have only been taking short 10-15 minute trips. i would let it run to see if the gauge would level out, but i dont want to fry any wires.
 
73AbodEE said:
i am going out to try a different alternator and regulator to see if that does any thing.
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PLEASE make some checks first

FIRST think I'd do is have the battery load tested, by someone who knows how to use a REAL carbon pile tester, like this:

Electronic_Specialties_710_Carbon_Pile_Battery_Tester.jpg


If you can get the caps off the battery, buy yourself a hydrometer and learn how to use it.

Next buy a meter and if you don't have one, a 12V test lamp. You can buy a "good enough" digi multimeter from any parts store, Sears, Lowes, etc for 35 bucks or less

1. You need to determine if the regulator is ACTUALLY grounded to the battery ELECTRICALLY,

2. You need to determine if and how much voltage drop is in the IGN harness, and this is becoming more and more of a problem in these old cars

3. After you do the above, you can determine if the regulator is capable of properly maintaining the proper voltage.

So have the battery checked

Next, Turn the key to "run" but with engine off. Select "low DC volts" range on the meter, put one probe on the battery positive post, the other on the blue field wire, and or, the IGN feed to the ballast and regulator IGN terminal

You are hoping, here for a VERY low reading, the lower the better. Anything over .2v (two tenths of a volt) is cause for concern, anything higher most certainly.

In the above test, you are measuring the voltage drop in the harness circuit path from the BATTERY -- FUSE LINK -- BULKHEAD CONNECTOR -- AMMETER CIRCUIT -- IGNITION switch connector -- THROUGH the IGN switch --BACK OUT the IGN switch connector -- BACK OUT the bulkhead connector on the dark blue IGN run wire

Your number one and two suspect in case of much drop is the bulkhead connector, next is the ign switch and connector.

Next, check the ground side. Start the engine, get the battery "normalized" the engine warmed up, and an RPM to simulate "low cruise."

Stick one probe on the battery NEG post, the other probe on the regulator case. Be sure to stab through any paint, chrome, rust.

Once again, you are looking for a very low reading, the lower the better. .2V or more means the ground from the regulator --body ground -- engine block--battery needs attention.

AFTER you fix the above problems, you can check CHARGING VOLTAGE

With the engine warm, the battery "normalized" and the engine running to simulate "low to medium cruise" check the battery voltage right at the battery posts. It should be around 13.8-14.2. AFTER you have fixed the voltage drop/ ground problems, if this voltage is too high or too low, THEN you are justified in buying a new regulator.

With limited equipment, you can only do a rudimentary check to see that the alternator is fully functional, and you probably don't know what it's true output is supposed to be, anyhow.

To do that, disconnect the green field wire and hook a clip lead from the disconnected alternator terminal to ground. This will cause a "full field" or "full output" condition. Hook your meter across the battery, Start the engine, and turn on all and any loads you can think of, stereo, heater, lights, etc.

BE CAREFUL you have bypassed the regulator. With engine running to simulate "medium cruise" (35-40 in high gear simulated RPM) the MINIMUM battery voltage should be 13. The ammeter should be showing a charge. DO NOT allow the voltage to get above 15V for very long, and certainly not 16

With this clip lead in place, engine RPM will determine output VOLTAGE, so it's possible to create high, dangers voltage on the system buss.
 
ok so ,diff alternator and regulator and the gauge almost completely pegged. the ballast was so hot i couldnt touch it, i put a new ballast in and held it with my hand and it got hot immediately so i shut the car off. any thoughts on how or why the ballast is about to catch on fire? here is the gauge after the new alt and VR. this is with the heater running, and the brights on. i dont have any thing other than the tach
 

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i will go buy a meter a little later tonight when the wife gets home and do a few checks. thank you 67dart273. in the mean time, is a smoking hot ballast related to the overcharging? or are these two seperate issues? wow. im kind of in panic mode here, i dont want to fry any thing. the wires are getting hot on the ignition 1 RUN side of the ballast
 

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could it be a bad ignition switch causing all this? i hate this sh*t. i love my car, i love my car, i love my car. if i say it enough times i wont get discouraged lol
 
73AbodEE said:
i will go buy a meter a little later tonight when the wife gets home and do a few checks. thank you 67dart273. in the mean time, is a smoking hot ballast related to the overcharging? or are these two seperate issues? wow. im kind of in panic mode here, i dont want to fry any thing. the wires are getting hot on the ignition 1 RUN side of the ballast
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Yeah, you're going to need a meter to see if the system is overcharging or charging correctly due to load or low battery. The ballasts will get HOT....even under normal conditions. Thats why they're ceramic, so they can handle that heat without melting. If you have an overcharge condition, it will make it worse.
 
73AbodEE said:
could it be a bad ignition switch causing all this? i hate this sh*t. i love my car, i love my car, i love my car. if i say it enough times i wont get discouraged lol
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Very unlikely. Typical ignition switch problems are intermittent connections and opens... not shorts that draw current.
 
cudamark said:
Yeah, you're going to need a meter to see if the system is overcharging or charging correctly due to load or low battery. The ballasts will get HOT....even under normal conditions. Thats why they're ceramic, so they can handle that heat without melting. If you have an overcharge condition, it will make it worse.
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the ballast is getting very hot to the touch with key turned into the accessory position (1 click forward before it engages the starter) is this normal? a couple weeks ago i accidently left the key in the "on" position for a few hours and my battery was completely dead. i have since put a brand new one in it. im thinking ,whatever is causing the ballast to heat up killed my battery that day.
 
so i replaced the coil which by the way was an MSD blaster coil..garbage. the hot ballast issue is gone with a factory coil.i can now hold the ballast without it burning my hand. i also changed the ignition box, and now i dont have a discharge in gear. the gauge now shows charge in gear (1st pic)and a greater charge over 1000 rpms (2nd pic).it still fluctuates when i play with the throttle and i unhooked the tach while i was at it.
 

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Start it up, reach up under the dash, and grab the back of the ammeter. If it is hot; loose connections. And be prepared, don't yank your arm back down so fast that you get the #$% sliced out of your arm.
 
green1 said:
Start it up, reach up under the dash, and grab the back of the ammeter. If it is hot; loose connections. And be prepared, don't yank your arm back down so fast that you get the #$% sliced out of your arm.
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lol ok thanks green1. any thoughts if it is not hot? i havent gone to get a meter yet to test the battery. im hoping it is just down on voltage, as per the gauge, but its brand new and the car fires with barely a crank of the starter, and it has never sounded remotely weak, so the system is charging ,but way too much according to the gauge. is it possible the gauge has just gone away?
 
Loose connection back there will fool the volt reg into thinking it has no ground, making it over-charge. You need a meter from big terminal on alt to ground, first. Start at the alt, then head towards batt, checking every living ground along the way, especially the volt reg.
 
Gotta agree with the grounds-make sure all grounds are clean and tight
 
cudamark said:
Very unlikely. Typical ignition switch problems are intermittent connections and opens... not shorts that draw current.
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Please read my post very carefully, you have to understand how this works

HOW IT WORKS

A big voltage drop in the ignition harness circuit works like this:

The regulator senses the "real" battery voltage AS SUPPLIED by the defective harnes

THIS IS WHY when you troubleshoot for a voltage drop harness you MUST do this with the engine NOT running.

Let's say you have a 1 volt drop in the harness. This means that with the engine off, and the voltage measured at the alternator field, or at the regulator IGN terminal, there is a ONE VOLT difference between the battery and the IGN terminal.

This ONE VOLT drop is ADDED to the regulator set point, which SHOULD be around 14 volts.

So when the car is RUNNING the regulator SENSES this low voltage at it's IGN terminal and THINKS that the battery is LOW, so it ramps up the charging voltage until it SEES 14V BETWEEN THE REGULATOR CASE and the REGULATOR IGN terminal. ----BUT---because the regulator is isolated from the battery by this amount of drop, IN ORDER TO OBTAIN that 14V working through this drop, it must ramp up the voltage to obtain that amount, and the battery which is BEFORE it goes through the defect in the IGN circuit, is now OVER voltage by the amount of the drop.

FURTHERMORE if the regulator is NOT actually grounded electrically to the battery, THIS difference of potential (voltage) IS FURTHER added to the charging voltage. So if, say, there is another 1/2 volt lost in the ground circuit, NOW you have ONE AND A HALF volts added to the regulator's "normal" 14V!!!!

The hot ballast in this case is NOT the sign of a short. Merely the charging voltage is way WAY too high, and so the ballast is running that much hotter because there is much more current going through it, caused by the high charging voltage

DO NOT RUN THE CAR this way. You are liable to ruin electrical items, including light bulbs, head lamps, or electronic components in the car.
 
73AbodEE said:
lol ok thanks green1. any thoughts if it is not hot? i havent gone to get a meter yet to test the battery. im hoping it is just down on voltage, as per the gauge, but its brand new and the car fires with barely a crank of the starter, and it has never sounded remotely weak, so the system is charging ,but way too much according to the gauge. is it possible the gauge has just gone away?
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The ammeter is a pretty simple animal. There are no windings or other components to go bad. They either work or are broken and then you have no power in the dash. Yours looks to be hooked up an working. As long as the needle "zeros out" with the key off, there is no adjustment to make. The only other problem you have with them is loose wire connections on the posts. If the insulators compress over the years, the nuts can loosen a bit and the power can arc from wire to post. If the insulators go bad completely, the wires can short to the housing and melt your harness. Just make sure the insulators are good and the nuts are tight and you should be good.
 
YET ANOTHER thing you MUST do now that you changed the alternator is to make absolutely sure that the field is not out of control with the new alternator. Disconnect the connector at the regulator. Start the car and make SURE the alternator is NOT charging.

(Some "new"/ rebuilt alernators come with a shorted or grounded brush)

ALSO one thing I forgot to mention---check the regulator connector and make sure it is clean and fits tight. Work the connector in/ out a few times on the regulator to be sure that it's "scrubbed" clean.

Go through my first post, a step at a time.
 
excellent. as soon as i get voltage measurements i will post the results and see whats next. THANK YOU for warning me about NOT running the car in its present state !! i was really worried about that . what components do i need to look at that would cause this to happen? these are the parts that make up the charging system that i can think of OTHER than broken or shorted wire. battery ,VR, alternator ,starter relay , amp gauge, ignition switch,did i miss anything? DOES the charging system affect the electronic ignition system? in other words, do they cross paths OUTSIDE of the ignition run1 wire other than the ballast resistor?can any component in the EI send a false reading to the VR ? The reason i ask this is because once i changed the coil, the ballast stopped getting hot and i am not showing a discharge what so ever.maybe im fighting two problems at once, but i think my coil was causing a huge problem and im 99% sure it is fixed now.
 
The main things that cause a severe overvoltage/ overcharge such as this are:

Bad regulator

the voltage drop problems that I"ve mentioned in the harness and ground circuits

The "green" connected brush being grounded, IE the blue field wire, being switched ignition, then feeds "full field" to the alternator = full output all the time

Sometimes a bad battery

Your coil / and or ballast may or may not NOW be damaged, but given the symptoms, I'm sure that you have an overvoltage problem, causing the ignition to draw excessive current. You may be overthinking the ballast--they DO run hot, too hot to touch.
 
May or may not be, but.... I had a 75 that had an overcharge problem somewhat similiar to yours. The car ended up getting a new/rebuilt alt, new volt reg, new ign box, new ballast resistor, new starter relay, and new battery. F-ing gremlins lol. That was between what I did and the previous owner. I cleaned grounds, wire contacts, etc-even at the bulk head. It got to the point that I was blowing out fuses and all my lights. Headlights are expensive anymore for these cars lol. I even blew and melted the horn relay and relay socket. This car was in real good shape- not beat or trashed. Anyway- I saw a piece through here and some other sites about the bulkhead connector. I straight wired the ammeter out through the firewall. Bypassed the bulkhead area. Problem solved. Start there- its not a hard fix at all. Granted- getting the steering column down and the dash out sucks, but better to do this and be ahead than to not have a car because of a fire. I drilled out the spots in the bulkhead connector where these ammeter wires connected and just ran the wire straight through those holes so it looked somewhat original and was atleast in the right spots for wire diagram purposes. Makes it look nice also. A drill bit in a dremel tool is perfect for this space- atleast on the slant 6 lol. Straight wire both wires-red and the black, with no splices/connectors along the way- if you can help it. Trust me- eased my mind ALOT. If its not the problem-you prefixed a problem that will be in the future anyway.
 
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