Cheepy Three-Sixty build
- Thread starter RAMM
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RAMM
Well-Known Member
Cylinder heads are complete and ready to bolt on-just waiting for bolts now. Chamber/bowl pic. .006"-.007" resurfaced. J.Rob
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
8 HP on two different engines is in the margin of error. Not buying that malarkey.
RAMM
Well-Known Member
Flowtesting underway. Randomnly picked cyl #5. Peak flow was 234 cfm @ .445" then the typical Magnum stall without a ton of S.S. widening and work. J.Rob
RAMM
Well-Known Member
Full results of flow test both intake & exhaust. J.Rob
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
"The Magnum Stall"... I like that expression. It has an omniscient tone to it. Think of all the people you can bamboozle with an expression like that LOL
Thanks once again for the good info.
Thanks once again for the good info.
RAMM
Well-Known Member
Assembled head. I could probably have this thing fired up this weekend if only I had cylinder head bolts. J.Rob
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
Good .400-.450, 10 cfm lower than I'd expect on everything below that.
You would kinda think it would hold to .500 with those low lift numbers, but I think ssr is wrong. What are your seat widths?...ah wait...you're not asking for critique...you're graciously sharing., so nevermind ;)
That's a good start though for a magnum.
You would kinda think it would hold to .500 with those low lift numbers, but I think ssr is wrong. What are your seat widths?...ah wait...you're not asking for critique...you're graciously sharing., so nevermind ;)
That's a good start though for a magnum.
RAMM
Well-Known Member
Critique is fine. The seat width itself is .060" The S.S.R. is pretty steep and tall--(Just the way I like 'em) I ain't finessing them the way they need to be in order for the flow to hold on. The real problem here is the extreme back cut and angle of it on the G3 intake valve-pretty sure it does not compliment the Magnum bowl/valve seat approach. To be honest I really like the .100-.200" flow rates. Also at first blush the exhaust doesn't look all that great until you consider the 1.55" valve and subsequent sinking to achieve a proper seat form.
Considering these heads flow 189-191 cfm peak on this bench I'm pretty sure they'll work alright. Also this is a SF1020 that ALWAYS displays a good 10 cfm lower than you are used to seeing. Important thing here is If and How the flowbench correlates to the dyno.
Remember I'm using a small hydraulic flat with sub .500" @ the valve with the 1.5 Chev style rockers anyways.
Also the operative word in the title of this thread is "cheap" so I'm not going to invest my time into a $1200-$1500 porting exercise. J.Rob
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
Yes , great for a magnum head, and 'okay' for 2.0 intake valve. The exhaust you can sink a little on those and not hurt it so bad like with an LA exh port. I think in regards to flow and work invested...the 2.0 int hurt you because I'm thinking there isn't enough bowl and ssr work to take advantage of it. A 1.94 would actually do those numbers ...but I'm not scoping them out on the bench in front of me to see exactly where I'd do a little, not more than another hr across both banks, work to get that .300 into the 190's, it would bring the rest up and .500 flow would appear.
I don't think its the bench either, the super1020 usually shows higher numbers than my bench, by 4-7 cfm, ah but screw racing flow benches.lol The cam is small so to me the low lift is very important here with that sub .500 lift cam, .3-.400 lift matters more if the goal is optimistic. Thats my input relative to the heads and valve lift, not the entire build or idea of cheaply done and of course the casting may not be the greatest...but for what you're workin with , you're still doin good.
Im not a believer of magnum heads, did a few sets...but I won't waste my own time or dollar with them....now if that's what the customer wants , its their money...
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RAMM
Well-Known Member
The 2.00" valve may have hurt but again it was what I had and didn't feel like "more" machining and turning the intake valves down. There is more than enough bowl and S.S. in the Magnum castings--WAY more than any LA casting. I spent 45-50 mins per cylinder and my hands were numb as the proof. Again, could I have really worked and experimented with the valves and angles? Of course! But then the question becomes--Is the climb worth the view?
Lets say this build produces 388 hp but if I spent a week on and off the bench testing and testing and equalizing and it theoretically made 399 hp , would it really have been worth it? Not to me--I'd be half way through another build in a weeks time.
Would love to see a pic of a head on your bench, I don't recall ever seeing one. What kind of bench do you test on? If you haven't flowed a head on your bench and then a SF1020 then I doubt you could make that statement. DART even states it in their catalog, SuperFlow even states the 1020 does not display the flow rates their venerable 600 does. The important thing here is that I know how this bench correlates and have only been fooled a few times by a big reading on this bench and less than expected results on the dyno.
I'm a big believer in Magnum heads and won't waste time or a dollar on LA stuff for myself anyways. Thanks for your thoughts though. Its rare that perspectives line up on matters such as these. J.Rob
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
I have.
I bet you're a great guy in person, on here you are VERY thin skinned. Been watching your ego trip grow...I think we've grown apart now. Guess you like stud mount magnum?Must be all that power in the awesomistically shaped closed chamber or that high velocity micro pinch and shorter runner, yeah that stuff sets records...
You will never see pics of my bench, That I built ,because all it is ....is eye candy. there is nothing to learn looking at a pic of your run of the mill superflow. It's like looking at a tire machine, unless you're physically demonstrating...no one learns anything and they could look up 100 pics of heads sitting on a flowbench...so they can still learn nothing if they want.
I was just trying to offer a tip.. but I see you mastered all there is, enjoy reinventing the wheel.
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stixx
Well-Known Member
Err, who is very thin skinned here?
RAMM
Well-Known Member
Naw I'm actually not as nice in person as I am on here because I wear my heart on my sleeve. If I don't like someone's character I will opt out of any kind of interaction with them diplomatically unless they don't get the hint--then I can get almost as ugly as Whoopi Goldberg.
Not sure I would refer to a guy sharing his build from a machinists/engine builders perspective an ego trip.
I do like the stud mount Magnum in a mild low lift application. It is the very high velocity and far better chamber that makes them superior to the antiquated LA stuff.
Considering you built your own flow bench it is very likely that it may show less than an industry stalwart like the SF-1020 or 600. You still never answered my question--Have you ever tested on your bench and then tested on a "name brand" bench?
I have 3 guys with benches somewhat local to me. 1 guy has a name brand bench--mine shows less cfm every time. 2 other guys have built their own and have tested on mine to compare--guess what? Mine displays less so naturally they like theirs better--I would too. I also participated in the SpeedTalk Flowaround experiment. This is where 2 cylinder heads were shipped all around the continent. An AFR 385CNC BBC and a ProComp CNC SBC were tested by about 20 diiferent shops and the results were mailed to a third party and kept secret until all the testing was done. Guess who's bench was at or near the bottom of the flow column?
I know there is nothing to learn looking at a pic of a head on a flowbench. It is proof that I actually did what I'm posting about--unlike an awful lot of chin waggers around here. It is like my 2 trade certificates framed and hanging on my wall--you can't learn anything from looking at them other than the fact that the guy's name on them is trained.
If I had mastered all that there is I certainly wouldn't be here posting on FABO. I'd be ending the tyranny all over the world in places like North Korea and Africa for a start.
Now that I've responded to your diatribe point for point-please piss off and don't come back or you might have to come up with a new screen name Justine. Ciao--J.Rob
RAMM
Well-Known Member
It isn't me Stixx I can assure you. I get myself into trouble at family gatherings all the time because my mouth is often directly connected to my brain with no filter in between--lol. What you see is what you get. J.Rob
RAMM
Well-Known Member
Thanks for asking this , I keep forgetting.
I would love to see some actual builds with photos that you can't learn anything from--from more than a few "regulars" on here. All kinds of "I'd do it this way" or "Why didn't you just do that?" but never any actual examples.
I share far more than most and I have kept a ton to myself as well and I guess I was right to do so.
Anyhow I gotta get to the shop so I can turn a 143 tooth flywheel into a 130 tooth externally balanced 360 flywheel. Pics that you can't learn anything from to follow--lol J.Rob
stixx
Well-Known Member
And you know it wasn't directed at you. I am always surprised how easily people get their undies all undone on here over a "simple" discussion/exchange of technical things.
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
He didn't wanna discuss anything, he got frazzled and started asking what kind of bicycle I had. He didn't need a pos valve from a different engine...he is just weirding out in his shop making the same motor 50 guys before him built, tested and all came within 10 hp of eachother. This is 'let's see what this valve does'. Well let's see...its cost time and money., there ya go. You could have dropped a Chevy valve in it and been done and had better numbers in general....but its much cheaper to do it this way when you have time and a shop full of machines.
I first said about magnum heads that I was not a believer...as in after about 400 hp they gotta go, too much effort for too little return.
I get about low 290's on my best day with an LA head, no one on here that Ive heard gets that out of a factory magnum head.
IQ52 gets more out of an LA head, and magnum probably, than myself or anyone at least that I trust, but I'm pretty damn sure the LA is what he gets the best #s from..not tha. it is all about #'s...but that closed chamber is not worth more than the flow difference. Show me the way and ill follow, but you gotta show me and this guy isn't showing me **** but hughes engines fk ups and his own weirdness at this point.
Coronet 500
Well-Known Member
I don't understand the squabbling, the port clean up is what many here will do and the flow numbers only show an improvement that justifies the time spent.
If this was a high end performance build for the track then more time and bigger numbers would be expected, but not a little 400hp street engine.
Really like the idea of using inexpensive Chevrolet or quality OEM over the counter parts. I greatly appreciate you documenting this build with all it's twists and turns, and will definitely help someone save a headache and money. Thanks, Ramm.
If this was a high end performance build for the track then more time and bigger numbers would be expected, but not a little 400hp street engine.
Really like the idea of using inexpensive Chevrolet or quality OEM over the counter parts. I greatly appreciate you documenting this build with all it's twists and turns, and will definitely help someone save a headache and money. Thanks, Ramm.
QuickDart360
Well-Known Member
LA heads for me too! Better shaft stability with shaft mount rockers to name one benefit. Once ported correclty can rival magnum heads. Only drawback can be open chamber.
I really appreciate that Ramm shares his knowledge, test results AND his pictures. Nothing wrong with Moparofficial pointing out how he would have done things differently, BUT a little of that goes a long way. I don't know Ramm, but I know he is a presence in the engine building community. I've seen the EM articles, etc. I've got no idea who Moparofficial is. He doesn't need to display his credentials, but it may give him more credibility when going toe to toe online with a known builder.
RAMM
Well-Known Member
^^^^^ This is correct. I am treating this thread like a journal but am still open to discussion. I do like to know who I'm dealing with however when the insults start to fly. Usually asking for credentials (in any way shape or form) adds fuel to the fire (usually flares up when adding dung) or snuff's it out completely. J.Rob
mderoy340
Well-Known Member
I hope you continue sharing the build. Not everyone needs 600+HP
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