COIL QUESTION

[Scody21]

Another lie promoted by the guy who made the FBO “ignition” was they don’t retard with rpm.

That was a flat out lie. Some of the worst retard with rpm is the HEI.

In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

That fits perfectly here. The king is the HEI and the blind are the the HEI swallowers.

Right. We would rather deal with the known **** of MSD boxes/ coils. We’re at the point that we time them out at about 60 hours. We always have 2-3 spares track side, and always has the MSD tester…

People don’t want to pay for the real good ignition systems. We’re talking a few grand, but then your chasing .0001 and you have a pro budget you’ll buy / use the best on the market and you won’t find them in the Summit Catalog…

 

[George Jets]

As shown earlier it is not so much the focus of the hei module. It is the E-Coil where the magic lies, running full 12 volts with no ballast resistor, and the ability that the e-coils are doubling the output voltage and still run cool.

The hei module just "Triggers" the high energy e-coil. Unlike some of the posters here being "Triggered" by the content of this thread. Running stock ignitions you are leaving 30,000 volts on the plate of unused resources, and those tower coils are getting hot.

Thanks for viewing.



* * * * *

 

[Dave999]

any magnetic/reluctor triggered ignition will retard slightly with RPM

if you are using a magnet and coil and something moving that is magnetic or can be induced to be magnetic to make your trigger pulses. Then the movement of the reluctor creating the pulse is also responsible for having its own reverse magnetic field working against creating the pulse.

This is a function of the trigger, all reluctor based triggers.
Its also something that impacts alternators as well they eventually self limit due to a reverse magnetic field set up fighting the one created by the field coil which limits output.
the field around the pickup in the distributor gets twisted by the fact that the distributor is doing its job. you cater for it in the advance curve

slew rate switching rate of the transistors in the circuit in the module should be consistent and is catered for by the position of the reluctor in relation to the rotor and the cap contact
if the electronics were so monstrously slow as to have serious impact on ignition events we'd still be using points which by their nature are very slow switches in comparison to even 1970s transistors, due to arcing.

basically if the shortcoming is reasonably predictable it can be catered for

Or to avoid this symptom use a hall effect or optical trigger

But then you lose on the dwell control front.
hall effect and optical triggers are just position sensors all they can do is trigger the spark,
the signal provides little or no detail regarding RPM unless you implement timers and counter in your ignition module.

a magnetic triggered, pulse signal not only acts as a position sensor to time the spark, the size of the pulse increases with RPM and that pulse height information can be used to adjust dwell based on rpm without the complexity of implementing timers and counters and something to compare "now" with "previously"

mopar didn't bother using the pulse size, but those folk at GM did, in order to control dwell and switch into Limp/coil preservation mode.

Dave

 

[Newbomb Turk]

any magnetic/reluctor triggered ignition will retard slightly with RPM

if you are using a magnet and coil and something moving that is magnetic or can be induced to be magnetic to make your trigger pulses. Then the movement of the reluctor creating the pulse is also responsible for having its own reverse magnetic field working against creating the pulse.

This is a function of the trigger, all reluctor based triggers.
Its also something that impacts alternators as well they eventually self limit due to a reverse magnetic field set up fighting the one created by the field coil which limits output.
the field around the pickup in the distributor gets twisted by the fact that the distributor is doing its job. you cater for it in the advance curve

slew rate switching rate of the transistors in the circuit in the module should be consistent and is catered for by the position of the reluctor in relation to the rotor and the cap contact
if the electronics were so monstrously slow as to have serious impact on ignition events we'd still be using points which by their nature are very slow switches in comparison to even 1970s transistors, due to arcing.

basically if the shortcoming is reasonably predictable it can be catered for

Or to avoid this symptom use a hall effect or optical trigger

But then you lose on the dwell control front.
hall effect and optical triggers are just position sensors all they can do is trigger the spark,
the signal provides little or no detail regarding RPM unless you implement timers and counter in your ignition module.

a magnetic triggered, pulse signal not only acts as a position sensor to time the spark, the size of the pulse increases with RPM and that pulse height information can be used to adjust dwell based on rpm without the complexity of implementing timers and counters and something to compare "now" with "previously"

mopar didn't bother using the pulse size, but those folk at GM did, in order to control dwell and switch into Limp/coil preservation mode.

Dave

Exactly. They ALL reused with rpm. But, the exact same part number will retard at different rpm and different rates.

It’s called skew rate.

I’ve seen a Chrysler gold box retard ONE DEGREE at 10,000 rpm.

I’ve seen an HEI retard SEVEN DEGREES by 5500.

If you don’t know when the retard starts and how much retard is happening the end user hasn’t a clue what his actual timing is.

As far as it goes, the HEI is among the worst at retarding with rpm.

I just tested a Mallory 667C box, just like it will run in the car.

At 6k it had one degree of retard. At 8500 it has another degree. At 10,500 it had one more degree of retard.

That’s three degrees from 6k to 10.5k.

That’s pretty damed impressive and no HEI I’ve tested was anywhere near that.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

As shown earlier it is not so much the focus of the hei module. It is the E-Coil where the magic lies, running full 12 volts with no ballast resistor, and the ability that the e-coils are doubling the output voltage and still run cool.

The hei module just "Triggers" the high energy e-coil. Unlike some of the posters here being "Triggered" by the content of this thread. Running stock ignitions you are leaving 30,000 volts on the plate of unused resources, and those tower coils are getting hot.

Thanks for viewing.



* * * * *

Ok. I got it. I’m so glad you are educating people like me. I do appreciate that. You have no idea how grateful I am for that.

Ok guys, the HEI was garbage because the OEM coils were junk.

Just get you one of them there super Ecoils and like Davis Unified Ignition says you’ll have more spark energy that a 5 amp magneto.

Of course that’s utter nonsense.

The electronics in the module are as slow as you can get. The coil doesn’t fix that.

You’ll notice no one ever discusses an HEI verses say an MSD 7. Or the Mallory 7 which is better than the MSD stuff.

You’ll also notice they never have back to back testing of the HEI verses even a decent Chrysler ignition.

Never any testing to compare. Just a lot of *** dyno gibberish.

But get you the magic coil and you could slap a couple of those HEI’s in a fuel burning funny car and you could set the national record, smoke the field and kiss the trophy girl.

We know this because Davis Unified Ignition already proved their HEI produces more energy than a magneto.

There are a lot of ignorant TF and FC crew chiefs out there.

A couple of you guys should hit them up after this weekend at the Gator Nationals. Many teams stay and test after that.

You could drop in your ignition with magic coils and do the fuel guys a solid.

Think of it.

Far fewer aborted runs from dropped cylinders.

Far less catastrophic engine explosions from those dropped cylinders.

Think also on the money saved over those expensive magneto’s because the need a 20 dollar coil and any simpleton can buy a module and hook it to a Chrysler distributor and make it go like hell!

The real world isn’t like bench racing and guessing.

The only ones around here who are triggered are the HEI sycophants who’ve never tested anything or provided results.

The land of the blind is full up and many one eye’d wonders are trying to ascend to the throne.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

As shown earlier it is not so much the focus of the hei module. It is the E-Coil where the magic lies, running full 12 volts with no ballast resistor, and the ability that the e-coils are doubling the output voltage and still run cool.

The hei module just "Triggers" the high energy e-coil. Unlike some of the posters here being "Triggered" by the content of this thread. Running stock ignitions you are leaving 30,000 volts on the plate of unused resources, and those tower coils are getting hot.

Thanks for viewing.



* * * * *

BTW, can you tell us how many degrees of retard your HEI has and at what rpm it occurs?

I’d be interested in that if you know.

 

[67Dart273]

how's this, i'll stop being so ******* sarcastic when you fuckers stop acting like HEI is the second coming and be-all, end-all of what ever the **** this is. *waves raccoon paws around*

oem chryco electronic runs fine and is more than suitable for 99% of applications. and that's a FACT, jack.

I am NOT "acting like HEI." if Chrysler was still a company, and actually produced quality modules, I might run them. And I'm not a racer cranking a R block to 8-9K.

So you tell me. WITHOUT the sarcasm. WHO makes an equivilant good quality ignition to directly replace a Chrysler OEM that doesn't break the bank? I don't know of any.

You keep saying OEM Chrysler. YOU CAN'T BUY THEM anymore. This is not 1970, or 1980, and I doubt you could buy current supply available in 1990

 

[Dave999]

7 degrees well that's gonna be 3.5 distributor degrees, more at play there than some magnetic effect at the pickup... thats like a monumental difference
my whole curve only 6.5 distributor degrees

id suggest that the module was wired in to the pickup backwards
if you look at the first dipped section of the trace below it illustrates how you can get massive variance in timing with an HEI when its cabled up wrong. the two arrows illustrate that variance and the two curves represent idle and max rpm

if you swap the wires you will have to reposition the distributor to get the motor to start again. the switching point move from 1/4 along the time axis to just over 1/2
thats a decent "tap" or ten of the distributor, round. (this is when you discover the vacuum can hits something)

because it doesn't instantly start when the pickup wires are swapped to correct, its easy to assume you were right the first time, but with that kinda variance it wasn't right

they couldn't sell a car with that much retard up to 5500 rpm that would be rank incompetence and the modules would have been consigned to history by 1980.....

the upper peak shows switching the right way the high rpm curve and the low rpm curve both hit the switching point at about the same position single arrow, and it makes little difference how huge or how low the peak is its all still switching at about the same point. its good enough compared with shonky old points... this upper curve is the wires the correct way

down below with them the wrong way...definitely not the case

for perfect timing it would switch at the 0 axis every peak will cross at the same 0 point
but because ground is noisy and the pulse decays back to it that's no good so they choose something like +X volts after it crosses from negative to positive as the switching point, easy to identify and provided the wires are the right way more or less the same for every peak.

i.e variance within the tolerance of a fibre foot on a set of mechanical points running on a machined cam on a shaft running in oilite bushings off a drive that is vibrating like .....f.fffff.f.f.

 

[Professor Fate]

Hi Folks

One of those things that I have never really thought about.........

The facts......SBM with oem electronic ignition using a Hi Rev 7000 ECU.
1.2 ohm accel coil (oem type) with .7 ohm ballast.

While running for a while, I touched the body of the coil while adjusting timing and it was so hot that I couldn't keep my hand on it. Is this normal, or is this thing running abnormally hot.

Thanks FABO

Hey CFD244-
Did you get the chance to try a higher ohm coil or ballast yet? I'd be interested if you ever got a positive result to your original question...

 

[junkyardhero]

So you tell me. WITHOUT the sarcasm. WHO makes an equivilant good quality ignition to directly replace a Chrysler OEM that doesn't break the bank? I don't know of any.

You keep saying OEM Chrysler. YOU CAN'T BUY THEM anymore. This is not 1970, or 1980, and I doubt you could buy current supply available in 1990

look man, i respect your expertise immensely but i think everybody is blowing things out of proportion here.

i work on these cars for a living, in the last 10 years i can count on ONE hand the amount of bad CDI's i've come across.

the only bunk one that i had out of the box? a made in usa piece.

much like cams going flat, if it were this endemic we'd be hearing about this DAILY here on the forum. and frankly, we're not.

the "stock" walker or who ever hong kong phooey unit you buy at the parts store is going to be more than adequate for 99% of the applications for the great unwashed masses. could it fail, sure. just like anything else-- same for an hei module.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

7 degrees well that's gonna be 3.5 distributor degrees, more at play there than some magnetic effect at the pickup... thats like a monumental difference
my whole curve only 6.5 distributor degrees

id suggest that the module was wired in to the pickup backwards
if you look at the first dipped section of the trace below it illustrates how you can get massive variance in timing with an HEI when its cabled up wrong. the two arrows illustrate that variance and the two curves represent idle and max rpm

if you swap the wires you will have to reposition the distributor to get the motor to start again. the switching point move from 1/4 along the time axis to just over 1/2
thats a decent "tap" or ten of the distributor, round. (this is when you discover the vacuum can hits something)

because it doesn't instantly start when the pickup wires are swapped to correct, its easy to assume you were right the first time, but with that kinda variance it wasn't right

they couldn't sell a car with that much retard up to 5500 rpm that would be rank incompetence and the modules would have been consigned to history by 1980.....

the upper peak shows switching the right way the high rpm curve and the low rpm curve both hit the switching point at about the same position single arrow, and it makes little difference how huge or how low the peak is its all still switching at about the same point. its good enough compared with shonky old points... this upper curve is the wires the correct way

down below with them the wrong way...definitely not the case

for perfect timing it would switch at the 0 axis every peak will cross at the same 0 point
but because ground is noisy and the pulse decays back to it that's no good so they choose something like +X volts after it crosses from negative to positive as the switching point, easy to identify and provided the wires are the right way more or less the same for every peak.

i.e variance within the tolerance of a fibre foot on a set of mechanical points running on a machined cam on a shaft running in oilite bushings off a drive that is vibrating like .....f.fffff.f.f.

View attachment 1716374749

It wasn’t wired backwards. Do you think I’m that stupid.

Have you actually ever tested anything HEI on a bench? If you had you know exactly what they do. And it’s not because it’s wired backwards.

As I said, ALL ignition systems other than points retard.

The HEI is one of the worst offenders.

I’ve tested several Chrysler orange boxes and some were so bad they went in the garbage. There was no way to get a curve in the distributor to correct for had bat it retarded.

IIRC one was 12 degrees at 5800 or something like that.

Absolutely no way could I make a curve to fix that. And the guy wondered why his car ran like crap.

Of course he was on a forum (not FABO or moparts…I think he found me on yellowbullet before I quit that chess pool) and the gurus were telling him to lock it out (I was guilty of doing that but when I got called out on my bullshit I admitted my error and bought a test bench and I’ve never told anyone to do that again) and the car was a gutter snipe.

And no wonder. Timed at an 800 rpm idle at 35 by the time it got to 6k he was down to 23.

Every time he added timing it ran better but everyone told him that 40 plus degrees would kill it. And it would if it didn’t retard.

I have posted videos of this on my YouTube page.

Of course you are free to believe what I tested or not.

Edit: your reference to cam degrees makes the retard sound less than it is.

We don’t time the engine in distributor degrees so why even go there? It just confuses things.

The engines sees the retard in crank degrees. I never work or talk in distributor degrees. Again, why make it confusing.

 

[Dave999]

if that's what you tested and that's what you found fair enough....all i have is a car and a timing light i haven't found that issue but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

no i don't think you are stupid...but it would be quite easy for lots of other people to fall into getting it wrong

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I am NOT "acting like HEI." if Chrysler was still a company, and actually produced quality modules, I might run them. And I'm not a racer cranking a R block to 8-9K.

So you tell me. WITHOUT the sarcasm. WHO makes an equivilant good quality ignition to directly replace a Chrysler OEM that doesn't break the bank? I don't know of any.

You keep saying OEM Chrysler. YOU CAN'T BUY THEM anymore. This is not 1970, or 1980, and I doubt you could buy current supply available in 1990

I can tell you exactly what to buy.

A Mallory Unilte if the assholes at MSD still make them.

Of course, when they took over Mallory they changed the advance mechanism and put the garbage GM advance in it.

You also need to buy the inline filter for it. Two things kill the Unilite. Dirty power from the alternator (which is far less frequent anymore if you aren’t using parts store rebuilt alternators) and jump starting the car.

That kills them dead instantly. You have to charge the battery first.

It’s a stand alone ignition. It is three wires. Simple. Any coil will work. It will have the least amount of retard by far than any trigger other than points.

And it will make as much or more power than an HEI. I tested that long ago.

 

[CFD244]

Hey CFD244-
Did you get the chance to try a higher ohm coil or ballast yet? I'd be interested if you ever got a positive result to your original question...

Nope, haven't got around to that yet. Have a 1.2 ballast that I will try. I just wasn't sure if the "hot" coil was normal. I am looking for reliability as this is just a cruiser.

 

[Professor Fate]

Nope, haven't got around to that yet. Have a 1.2 ballast that I will try. I just wasn't sure if the "hot" coil was normal.

Thanks. Keep us posted.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Ok. I got it. I’m so glad you are educating people like me. I do appreciate that. You have no idea how grateful I am for that.

Ok guys, the HEI was garbage because the OEM coils were junk.

Just get you one of them there super Ecoils and like Davis Unified Ignition says you’ll have more spark energy that a 5 amp magneto.

Of course that’s utter nonsense.

The electronics in the module are as slow as you can get. The coil doesn’t fix that.

You’ll notice no one ever discusses an HEI verses say an MSD 7. Or the Mallory 7 which is better than the MSD stuff.

You’ll also notice they never have back to back testing of the HEI verses even a decent Chrysler ignition.

Never any testing to compare. Just a lot of *** dyno gibberish.

But get you the magic coil and you could slap a couple of those HEI’s in a fuel burning funny car and you could set the national record, smoke the field and kiss the trophy girl.

We know this because Davis Unified Ignition already proved their HEI produces more energy than a magneto.

There are a lot of ignorant TF and FC crew chiefs out there.

A couple of you guys should hit them up after this weekend at the Gator Nationals. Many teams stay and test after that.

You could drop in your ignition with magic coils and do the fuel guys a solid.

Think of it.

Far fewer aborted runs from dropped cylinders.

Far less catastrophic engine explosions from those dropped cylinders.

Think also on the money saved over those expensive magneto’s because the need a 20 dollar coil and any simpleton can buy a module and hook it to a Chrysler distributor and make it go like hell!

The real world isn’t like bench racing and guessing.

The only ones around here who are triggered are the HEI sycophants who’ve never tested anything or provided results.

The land of the blind is full up and many one eye’d wonders are trying to ascend to the throne.

Alright. That's enough of that one eyed chit. lol

 

[Bewy]

If I want to read fairy tales to my grandkids, all I have to do is read Turk's posts in this thread!!
Take:
- post #88. Mallory unilite makes more power than HEI. Really? Exactly how much more power & where are the numbers?
- also from post #88. Garbage GM advance. Really? Who tested it/compared to....what? And where are THE TEST RESULTS???? GM provided numerous differently shaped centre plates & numerous centri weights that allowed for a huge number of diffferent advance curves. Not seeing that from other brands...
- and the nonsense in post #80. HEIs in a fuel burning funny car. Nobody is suggesting that.
- post #80. OEM HEI coils are junk. Really? And I thought it was the modules that were junk! Having an each way bet now. And that we should all be using the Mallory Uni Dark....
- post #80. A 5 amp magneto. Or a 3 amp magneto. The current in the spark is 3 amps? What exactly does the 3 amps refer to & where are the specs???????????????

You are just full of it Turk & nobody should believe a word you say.
Phil Jacobs, founder of Jacobs ign systems claims the HEI is the best factory ign system.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

If I want to read fairy tales to my grandkids, all I have to do is read Turk's posts in this thread!!
Take:
- post #88. Mallory unilite makes more power than HEI. Really? Exactly how much more power & where are the numbers?
- also from post #88. Garbage GM advance. Really? Who tested it/compared to....what? And where are THE TEST RESULTS???? GM provided numerous differently shaped centre plates & numerous centri weights that allowed for a huge number of diffferent advance curves. Not seeing that from other brands...
- and the nonsense in post #80. HEIs in a fuel burning funny car. Nobody is suggesting that.
- post #80. OEM HEI coils are junk. Really? And I thought it was the modules that were junk! Having an each way bet now. And that we should all be using the Mallory Uni Dark....
- post #80. A 5 amp magneto. Or a 3 amp magneto. The current in the spark is 3 amps? What exactly does the 3 amps refer to & where are the specs???????????????

You are just full of it Turk & nobody should believe a word you say.
Phil Jacobs, founder of Jacobs ign systems claims the HEI is the best factory ign system.

View attachment 1716375039

Oh yeah he can’t be wrong.
Another idol you worship.

Rather than post other people’s work, why not show your testing that YOU did and verified that an HEI made more horsepower than points.

You can’t do it because you’ve never done it.

I have Jacob’s book. He proved nothing either.

But we know the love of your life, the king of kings and god of gods David Vizard made 800 ( that’s EIGHT HUNDRED HORSEPOWER) on 383 ( that’s THREE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY THREE) cubic inches with a stock HEI and a magic coil.

Of corse the plugs were gapped at .080 and he did all that with a single 4 and 1.625 headers.

Yep, he’s a god all right.

And how do we know it’s true? It’s not because Vizard tested his magic secret squirrel **** HEI with a super duper coil against any other ignition.

It’s not because he took the engine to the track and it ran the numbers.

It’s not that he posted the fuel flow numbers and the OBSERVED power and torque so the simple math could be done to verify his results by anyone with the gumption to do it.

Naw, none of that.

It’s real and it happened just like he said because he said it did. We have his word.

And of course Bewy went out and copied the build to verify the results and sho’ nuff’, he got damn close to the same numbers as his hero.

No wait! He didn’t do that. He bought the book or the magazine and he read it with the confidence his king and god wouldn’t like to sell a book or magazine article. No way would good ol’ Dave do that.

But we all know if anyone else posts dyno numbers not named Vizard Bewy will jump in and tell us all how the dyno was hot and the numbers played with.

Do you see the hypocrisy Bewy? Of course you don’t because you never test anything.

You see, I have. I’ve been **** canning the HEI and its junk advance mechanism for decades now. Never have I lost power.

Of course I was wholly ignorant of this top drawer, top secret coil that turns a weak suck ignition into a MSD 44 amp magneto.

If only the fuel guys knew about this wicked ***, lightning bolt coil they could ditch the mags, run .080 plug gaps and increase power from 11,000ish to maybe and this is a low estimate 15,000ish horse power.

Think of that.

Good night Bewy.

 

[George Jets]

Quite a hole you have dug there Turk. After a few seconds at 11,000 hp it goes to compression ignition because the spark plugs are fried.

Doesn't make any difference what the ignition is at that point, they run like diesels.

Time to get back to reality numbers of 3,000 to 5,000 rpm that most people are concerned with, not some voodoo engine with the rods coming out the bottom.

Good simple running engines that perform well on the street and are not going to leave you at the Diary Queen when you go out for a bite to eat.

Don't get so "Triggered" life is short, step back and enjoy the time you have. It's just not worth getting all worked up over. Have a laugh once in a while, it's good for the soul.


☆☆☆☆☆

 

[Bewy]

And for the third time: exactly what does the 3 amps refer to in the ' 3amp magneto'?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
You haven't got a clue....

For those interested, below are centre plates, weights & advance curves that can be achieved with HEI. I am not sure whether this list includes all the plates & weights.

 

[67Dart273]

I can tell you exactly what to buy.

A Mallory Unilte if the assholes at MSD still make them.

Of course, when they took over Mallory they changed the advance mechanism and put the garbage GM advance in it.

You also need to buy the inline filter for it. Two things kill the Unilite. Dirty power from the alternator (which is far less frequent anymore if you aren’t using parts store rebuilt alternators) and jump starting the car.

That kills them dead instantly. You have to charge the battery first.

It’s a stand alone ignition. It is three wires. Simple. Any coil will work. It will have the least amount of retard by far than any trigger other than points.

And it will make as much or more power than an HEI. I tested that long ago.

Thanks for the suggestion, but that's a half a grand out the door. My point exactly. MANY of us with just a warmed up street rod , would LOVE to have just a good old Mopar equivalent ECU. I've even considered ordering up an Ozzie Holden module and having a look at them.

 

[Dave999]

modules that retard....
drove 5 hours last night plenty of time to think

if you have a window of time in which to make a spark
and you have a minimum time set in the module that the coil must be on to do that properly,
the faster you go the later the spark will be... i.e the fixed window of time for filling the coil is pushing out the window of time you have for actually getting the spark away, then yes i can imagine some impact on timing
what it has to do at 6000 rpm differs from 1000 rpm.
this would normally be catered for in the mechanical advance curve.... more mechanical advance to mask the retard of the module.

the minimum dwell problem can be addressed by coil winding and higher current into the coil, provided the module is designed to take advantage. like mopar did with the Race ignition boxes chrome and gold etc.. they made them very good at high rpm but not so good driving to the shops and they did it by reducing the resistance in the primary circuit, bigger current, shorter time to "full". Used a special ballast resistor a specific coil and some tweaking of component values in the box...

the only time this would be an issue is if you are using the set-up way out of bounds
i.e you lock off the distributor and run say 28* across the rpm range and hope to spin it to 7K, you have then removed a vital part of the system.

you have no advance curve therefore are totally beholden to the modules ability to switch... i think you would see what Turk sees to a greater or lesser extent

the setup was not designed for that, it doesn't make the ignition module ****. it just means you have removed part of the system that was useful, i.e all or most of the mechanical advance, and that has exposed one of the limitations of the chosen module

the weights, their shape, their hinge point the position the springs attach to the advance mechanism are all going to play a part, as soon as the weights swing out the forces on them are different
so a 10 rpm change at 1000 rpm and a 10 rpm change at 4000 rpm can produce a different changes in advance regardless of spring or spring loop config.

so one presumes if the module looses 6 degrees between 1000 rpm and 5000 rpm the advance weight and spring set up is adding that, along with what we think of as our prescribed advance curve to keep everything on track.
in that situation you would want to distributor to pull in 3* of distributor advance over that range to stand still.... totally locked out is not an option

On the type of motor where you would conceivably want to run ignition advance that is pure "drag race" a crank trigger a cam sensor or similar and programmable ECU are the way to go

basic:- megajolt with ford EDIS and multi coil wasted spark
great:- locked distributor and daytona sensors cd1
no more problems and rock solid ignition timing.

so if you put all of your money into making a motor that will be the talk of the track
using a street/oem ignition makes no sense, you threw away everything OEM apart from the engine block, id suggest the ignition needs to go and be replaced as well.

now if you were observing this issue on a car which actually has a mechanical advance curve then my initial response about the module being wired backwards carries some merit.

Dave

 

[Dave999]

I've even considered ordering up an Ozzie Holden module and having a look at them.

local bosch design using exactly the same motorola chipset for 4 times the cost. my original set up was one of them.
the chinese are making them as well....

when i lived in Oz i didn't want to pay $300-$500 for an imported orange box ballast and coil
given that even in 2002 they were beginning to get a reputation for "not being made by mopar" anymore.

local Blue boxes were available but didn't fancy the rewire

i needed something i could replace with parts off the self at the local auto store,
for my previously POINTS mopar

i now run a GM 4 pin but hella branded off a renault
the 4 pin module in various different shaped cases is a worldwide phenomenon for a period in the 80s everything ran something like it

mind so is the mopar box. i can get one off a Hillman avenger (plymouth cricket) or talbot horizon in the UK

Dave

 

[George Jets]

And here we are this early morning Friday, March 7th 2025.
Over 2k (2,000) views of this thread > "Coils"

Thanks for visiting FABO



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[Newbomb Turk]

Quite a hole you have dug there Turk. After a few seconds at 11,000 hp it goes to compression ignition because the spark plugs are fried.

Doesn't make any difference what the ignition is at that point, they run like diesels.

Time to get back to reality numbers of 3,000 to 5,000 rpm that most people are concerned with, not some voodoo engine with the rods coming out the bottom.

Good simple running engines that perform well on the street and are not going to leave you at the Diary Queen when you go out for a bite to eat.

Don't get so "Triggered" life is short, step back and enjoy the time you have. It's just not worth getting all worked up over. Have a laugh once in a while, it's good for the soul.


☆☆☆☆☆

Let’s see here. I’ll explain this in CONTEXT because you are struggling with reality.

Bewy once again posted that his hero made 800 hp, with over 300 of that coming from nitrous. That is of course IF you believe it. I doubt it but evidently you don’t. That is your inexperience and ignorance.

To that end, considering the cumulative amount of horse **** Bewy posts I decided to sum up the entire folly in one post.

If you knew your *** from a hole in the ground you’d know, that without seeing the entire article or that part of the book it came from we only know what the caption says and what the picture shows.

That means we are required to believe that Vizard made all that power with an HEI ignition. I assumed the.080 plug gap because Bewy in his yammering claims the HEI will fire that gap and it makes more power. It may fire an .080 gap in a 5 hp Briggs but not making that kind of power.

You are so gullible and naive that you believe that lie.

None of you Vizard leg humpers EVER suggest that we see SOME evidence that Vizard’s junk does what he says it does. I don’t know, you know like posting ALL the dyno numbers? Or maybe he or one of his toadies would actually take one of these world beating engines, put it in a car and take it to the track.

But NOOOOOOOOOOOO. That never happens. You all just blindly follow the one eyed king, who has no clothes either.

You have been mentally high jacked by a serial magazine article writer. And the leader of that pack is Bewy.

Let me say this to you. If you think you are putting 300 plus horsepower of nitrous through an engine and doing it with an HEI you are crazy. Literally.

At that level, you are looking at needing something like a 7 box (a 6 might get it lit but the plug gap would be .018-.020 and it would still be down on power) and it would struggle (the 7) to fire the plug with a gap over .030.

That’s the FACT.

Combustion chamber turbulence goes up exponentially with the addition of nitrous. As the chamber becomes more turbulent, the force of the turbulence will blow the spark out. Once it goes out it doesn’t pick it back up. It’s SIMILAR to what happens when a fuel burner drops a hole. It almost never picks it back up.

Again, explaining this down to your level, without seeing more data from the article you MUST assume it’s horse ****.

Did Vizard say what the plug gaps were?

Did he say what super truck parts were in the HEI?

Did he explain how much timing he pulled out when the nitrous hit, and how he did it?

Of course not. The whole thing is preposterous and you should know that.

And dropping that crap in here as an example of an HEI being a ding beater would be laughable but silly people actually believe this stuff.

Those are the facts. Simple as that. Any reference I made to buying nitromethane was solely used to expose the abject lunacy of believing something like that.

It’s YOU who is triggered when you get questioned about the worlds most over hyped ignition. It’s you who takes things like this at face value without so much as thinking about the entirety of what Vizard wants you to believe.

By the way, did you happen to read (and comprehend) that 67Dart273 is looking for an ignition? He wants an upgrade over the mopar ignition (which if you have a good box will make the same or more power than an HEI) but he’s not racing. He’s not turning over 5500 rpm.

You are just as pig headed and slow minded as Bewy. You think your brand of low performance crap is special. It’s not.

Keep believing the lies. You deserve it.