Coilover support bars, how much interest?

[AnotherA]

Keep the idea's rolling guys, this could turn into some intuitive innovation for us all.

I don't have a full understanding on what kind of forces we are looking at trying to control here. But wouldn't the brace Badart showed in the first post work if he also came off the top of it with another bar and run that back to the firewall as high and close to the outer fender as possible? Wouldn't that help with the twisting combined with using his tubular radiator support to tie the front frame rails together?

 

[jos51700]

This would be called being different and getting rid of the Torsion Bars that seem to always be in the way of something when modifying our cars. Headers, Turbo exhaust Dumps, Starter motors etc. Plus the car would handle quite a bit better, changing spring rates are cheap. 2 Springs only cost about $85.00. You could change the ride height of your car without messing too much with the alignment.

I never had a problem when doing my cars, but more power to ya...I guess.

 

[Badart]

I never had a problem when doing my cars, but more power to ya...I guess.

Mad Dart does make a lot of power. Did you see the snails?

 

[Badart]

How about something like Magnumforce Racing offers except mounted under the inner fenders instead of in the engine compartment? Pretty much what you would do if you had a full cage with snout bars, except instead of being welded to a cage there would be a plate on the firewall??

I know exactly what you are talking about and actually have mocked up this exact bar. The problem is the tire while turning and the bar are in the same place. If you run the bar farther forward then it gets into the bumper brackets and any farther back you will hit the upper control arm. I think in a drag race car it's not that big of an issue, but in a street car with wide tires it's not practical. Thanks for the ideas and your dart is beautiful.

 

[Badart]

Keep the idea's rolling guys, this could turn into some intuitive innovation for us all.

I don't have a full understanding on what kind of forces we are looking at trying to control here. But wouldn't the brace Badart showed in the first post work if he also came off the top of it with another bar and run that back to the firewall as high and close to the outer fender as possible? Wouldn't that help with the twisting combined with using his tubular radiator support to tie the front frame rails together?

I like the way that you think. :thumblef:

 

[AnotherA]

Are you still thinking about using 1 1/8" .120" wall DOM or something bigger?

 

[inkjunkie]

I know exactly what you are talking about and actually have mocked up this exact bar. The problem is the tire while turning and the bar are in the same place. If you run the bar farther forward then it gets into the bumper brackets and any farther back you will hit the upper control arm. I think in a drag race car it's not that big of an issue, but in a street car with wide tires it's not practical. Thanks for the ideas and your dart is beautiful.

I will have to go stick my head under the car & take a look. Granted it has junk tires on it now & is high in the front but I dont see any clearance issues with the way mine was done. My snout bar is outside the top shock mount....I have seen c style truck frames that are alot thicker than the sheetmetal abody frames roll inward so I think you need to to come up with something to stop the twisting potential...there is going to be a ton of leverage generated by the top shock mount....this picture is not of my car. But mine is done the same way, be surprised if the tire and tube were ever going to touch seeing as how the tube is tucked up tight against the sheet metal......it is not in either the upper control arm mount nor the bumper mounts....couple it with your lower support and you might get a pretty rigid front end out of it......

 

[wireweld]

How about something like Magnumforce Racing offers except mounted under the inner fenders instead of in the engine compartment? Pretty much what you would do if you had a full cage with snout bars, except instead of being welded to a cage there would be a plate on the firewall?? ..[/QUOTE]

This is what Bob's pro fab does. You weld a plate to the firewall and a chunk of square tubing to the frame rail up front, then he has tubing bent to go from the plate past the shock towers and down to the square tubing. The tubing is welded to the shock tower with reinforcements that he cuts out with a laser. I will try and post pics tonite if I have time. He uses Afco coilovers that mount like the factory shocks.
He needs to update his website with new pics of the setup.

 

[Mad Dart]

Ink,
Take some good pictures if you can of yours and post them up. My Turbo's and Plumbing are in the way so my bars will die into the inner part of the frame rail instead and catching the upper shock tower in the process then gusseting that area to tie it all together. Like yours my snout bars will come off the cage under the dash and maybe a plate where it goes thru the firewall all welded up also. That is the plan anyways!
I am also using the Radiator Support Bar that Badart has fabbed up. I am sure with the proper gusseting this set up would be pretty stout and you would not need to worry about the frame rails twisting in any way.

 

[AnotherA]

It would be really nice to get ride of the torsion bars for a turbo setup. I know I had the joys of trying to snake a large pipe by the passenger side.

 

[Mad Dart]

It would be really nice to get ride of the torsion bars for a turbo setup. I know I had the joys of trying to snake a large pipe by the passenger side.

Yup for sure. I am using 3.5" Dumps on both sides of the car, on the Passenger side it gets tight going by the trans & making the turn around the torsion bar. On a single turbo where you sometimes need a 5" Dump, getting rid of the torsion bars would be the perfect problem solver.

 

[69-340Dart]

The issue of twisting the the frame rails could be solved with a strut tower brace like those used in many newer cars.
Obviously different engine combinations are going to have different clearance issues up top, this part would likely have to be built specific to each persons needs.
You could also brace the coilover supports to the firewall or maybe the rad support with bolt in braces.

For lower control arms, CAP was making a lower arm that attached to both sides of the K frame rather than just the backside. I would hope QA1 will continue with this design for use with their K frames.

 

[inkjunkie]

Ink,
Take some good pictures if you can of yours and post them up. My Turbo's and Plumbing are in the way so my bars will die into the inner part of the frame rail instead and catching the upper shock tower in the process then gusseting that area to tie it all together. Like yours my snout bars will come off the cage under the dash and maybe a plate where it goes thru the firewall all welded up also. That is the plan anyways!
I am also using the Radiator Support Bar that Badart has fabbed up. I am sure with the proper gusseting this set up would be pretty stout and you would not need to worry about the frame rails twisting in any way.

I will be heading outside with the camera shortly......

 

[ardentindustries]

I dont doubt the factory sheetmetal frame rails will eventually start to twist in towards one another. This is not good, besides the obvious, the spring rates and shock settings would never be consistent as things are moving around.
One way to avoid this is something like what was pictured before...a tube from the firewall, coming over the tire/suspension area, and then bent in to attach to the frame rail. I think with some patience, you could come up with a certain bend that would clearance everything fine and work great.
Another way would be, as mentioned, a strut tower type brace. I would run it as tight to the underside of the hood as possible, and then down to the tops of the frame rails. Also mentioned, clearance issues between different combinations will be an issue.

As for the radius rod setup...I would go with 1"x.095 or .120 wall material. Theres building overkill stuff, then there is building stuff REDICULOUSLY heavy.

Now quit coming up with ideas! I wont have anything to build once I get a car for mock up!!!

 

[Badart]

I will have to go stick my head under the car & take a look. Granted it has junk tires on it now & is high in the front but I dont see any clearance issues with the way mine was done. My snout bar is outside the top shock mount....I have seen c style truck frames that are alot thicker than the sheetmetal abody frames roll inward so I think you need to to come up with something to stop the twisting potential...there is going to be a ton of leverage generated by the top shock mount....this picture is not of my car. But mine is done the same way, be surprised if the tire and tube were ever going to touch seeing as how the tube is tucked up tight against the sheet metal......it is not in either the upper control arm mount nor the bumper mounts....couple it with your lower support and you might get a pretty rigid front end out of it......

Inkjunkie I see what you are saying now, My bad. I forgot all about that option. I am just curious how many people are willing to cut the inner fenders? I want to build something that will be out of site and not occupy the same space as the battery location. Hmmmm

 

[Badart]

For lower control arms, CAP was making a lower arm that attached to both sides of the K frame rather than just the backside. I would hope QA1 will continue with this design for use with their K frames.

Edit: Are these the cap lower arms that you are talking about? They still use a torsion bar.

 

[Badart]

I dont doubt the factory sheetmetal frame rails will eventually start to twist in towards one another. This is not good, besides the obvious, the spring rates and shock settings would never be consistent as things are moving around.
One way to avoid this is something like what was pictured before...a tube from the firewall, coming over the tire/suspension area, and then bent in to attach to the frame rail. I think with some patience, you could come up with a certain bend that would clearance everything fine and work great.
Another way would be, as mentioned, a strut tower type brace. I would run it as tight to the underside of the hood as possible, and then down to the tops of the frame rails. Also mentioned, clearance issues between different combinations will be an issue.

As for the radius rod setup...I would go with 1"x.095 or .120 wall material. Theres building overkill stuff, then there is building stuff REDICULOUSLY heavy.

Now quit coming up with ideas! I wont have anything to build once I get a car for mock up!!!

I am currently bending up a set of bars similar to the Magnumforce bars that run from the upper firewall/cowl area and tie into the inner fender/shock tower and land above one of my lower radiator supports on the frame rail. This setup should be really strong, but not for everyone.

LOL. You haven't found a car yet? I have a couple of parts cars in my driveway that you are welcome to. Seriously I wish you were closer.

 

[ardentindustries]

It seems I wish I lived closer to anything...theres no "donor cars" in Cali. I even put a wanted ad up on CL. LOL.

 

[inkjunkie]

Inkjunkie I see what you are saying now, My bad. I forgot all about that option. I am just curious how many people are willing to cut the inner fenders? I want to build something that will be out of site and not occupy the same space as the battery location. Hmmmm

Some pictures of how my car was done. The snout bar is welded to the top of the frame near the k-member and to the cage on my car. Nothing stopping anybody from just welding a plate to the firewall and anchoring it there, to the top of the shock mount similar to mine and then thru the inner fender onto the top of the frame rail like mine was done. Some of the pictures are not that clear as everything is black...if you need better pictures let me know & I will go out and put some masking tape on the tube so you can see it better....And there is no real cutting of the inner fnders, just 1 hole per side to get the tube into the engine bay....

 

[inkjunkie]

I really do not see any way that this is going to cause any issues with a wide tire on it's own. I have seen a Dart where the frame needed to be sectioned a bit but even then....

 

[inkjunkie]

If you were to move the tube in the engine compartment you could use this to weld tabs to mount the motor plate to it as well, that is how Hemicops car was done if I remember correctly.

 

[Mad Dart]

Thanks for the pictures Doug!
Curious, it looks like your bracing off your Snout Bar is right where the upper shock bolts thru the inner fender. What are you doing for shocks?

 

[69-340Dart]

Are these the cap lower arms that you are talking about? They still use a torsion bar.

These are the ones I was thinking about

 

[Mad Dart]

This here is how I need to do mine. I would try and land the bar tighter to the shock tower and build a 3 sided gusset assembly that has the shock hole in it and make sure it was tight up against the shock tower hole in the inner fender, then weld it solid to the snout bar and everywhere it contacted the inside of the shock tower.
I don't see how the frame rails could ever move or the Inner fender after making it solid how I describe above.

View attachment Snout Bar & Shock Tower.jpg

 

[inkjunkie]

Thanks for the pictures Doug!
Curious, it looks like your bracing off your Snout Bar is right where the upper shock bolts thru the inner fender. What are you doing for shocks?

The shock mounts thru the "table" below where the square tube is welded....you can sort of see it in the one picture. Will get a better picture of it next time I am in the garage....