combustion chamber question

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K.O. SWINGER

Meeting in the alley since 1976
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so lately I have been gleaning lots of info small block mopar strokers I am a die hard 340 guy and love that little over achiever, but times change and it time to go through mine one more time. my question is I now run close chamber aluminum heads so if I go with some dish or step piston on a 4 inch stroker don't you lose the quench effect and if so will flat tops work with pump fuel. my cam 245@50 single pattern cam. my chambers are 65cc. my math puts the compression around 11.5 to one
 
What we call quench is really only a part of what the right chamber size and shape does when the piston and head get close enough. You do not "lose quench" with the dished pistons available for our Mopar small block strokers. I typically run the piston to head at .034" with the gasket I would normally use. So the deck is cut to get the piston proud of the deck .005". Because of the stroke, using a flat top basically means not a pump gas engine unless you really know your tune and plan to use racier parts. So you should be planning this engine more in terms of forward thinking.
 
Step dish pistons that are for closed chambers are specifically designed to lower compression but maintain quench. The pistons "step" in itself is the quench pad. They usually have a border around the piston circumference that also is a small quench area, too.
 
Step dish pistons that are for closed chambers are specifically designed to lower compression but maintain quench. The pistons "step" in itself is the quench pad. They usually have a border around the piston circumference that also is a small quench area, too.
I've seen 'em for the 360 but not for 340's; not sure about any step-topped stroker pistons.
 
Don't confuse a quench dome, with a quench dish. They are basically opposites. The quench dome has a dome to take up volume in the open chamber. The quench dish has space that adds volume under the closed head chamber. The quench dish is the only design available as a stock number for the Mopar strokers. If it's a dish for a stroker, it's made as a quench dish.
 
The math points to a Dcr of 8.82@ 181psi. Depending on your ICA.
There is at least one guy here on FABO that says he is running over 9.0 Dynamic on pump gas with aluminum heads.

I myself ran 11.3 and 8.6@176, with an aluminum headed 367, on 87E10.This with a 292/508/108 cam in a 3600# 68Barracuda with 3.55s and a 4speed.
Yeah my squish was tight; about .028 to .030. Man that combo was meeean
 
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How far can I go before losing Quench? .040? .050? I'm building 2 408s with EQ heads and Icon 983 pistons, would I chance more detonation with a lower Compression ratio at .050 Quench than the higher ratio at .040?
 
I have read that the ideal Q is about .035
I have read that less than .020 cold can run too tight, hot.
I have read that more than .080 is not detonation prone, but helps nothing
I have read that from .050 to .080 is a bad place to be
I have run .030ish in one combo, and .034 on another; both with excellent results

The man who runs as in post #6 above also ran a tight Q. If I could remember his name, I would post it. IIRC he was running over 200psi on aluminum heads.
 
Keep it around .040 if you're wanting to run higher rpms often. Rod stretch, heat expansion, wrist pin wear, and bearing wear is a thing and can further tighten the quench. A stroker already has faster piston speeds. With forged and strengthened internals, this is not as much an issue.

Quench is only one piece to a top running engine that will last and never detonate. Proper air/fuel tuning, smooth timing, consistent valve timing/lift from cylinder to cylinder, proper fuel, etc all play a role.
 
Combustion chamber size plays a role too; the larger it is, the longer to conbustion process takes, and the more chance to detonate. So closed chambers help in that regard.

As a point of info, a local Ford machinist who builds a gob of 2.3L 4 bangers told me that they have built quench gaps pretty short but at around .025" gap + or -, the pistons juuust start to kiss the heads in race conditions (hot, high revs). This is for circle track racing. So I generally take that a an absolute lower bound on what you might do, but the .035 lower limit is a practical street build limit.

IMHO, the OP is skirting detonation problems with flat tops if things are not just right, if his math is right and SCR is 11.5. AJ's DCR number is pointing there too. For general street use, and the lower max octane fuel in Oregon, I would not go there personally.
 
Yeah that's a tough one.
It might be OK but what if it's not!
I personally would try it, cuz I'm all about learning, and posting up results. And I'm not afraid to back up and start over. But Bakerlite brought up a great point. It's all about VE. If your Dcr detonates with an 850, but does not, with a 650, Hey run a 650. On the street,most will never know the difference. Or delay the secondaries some until the engine has had time to rev up. Or try a spreadbore. Now that's good strategy.
The Dcr numbers., are a fixed ratio as already mentioned; just like Scr But the EFFECTIVE ratio can be down at 4/1 at idle, and could easily be as high as the Scr at peak torque,and if the VE climbs to 105%, then the effective would be higher than the 11.5 Scr.
>This is why reducing the the throttle setting when you hear detonation, reduces it or eliminates it. Think about it.. Nothing else has changed; not the Scr, not the Dcr, not ignition timing. The only thing that has changed is the amount of air being ingested, the effective compression ratio, or VE.
>When I put my combo together in 99 I was fully prepared to choke it with a smaller carb. On the shelf I had an AVS, a couple of AFBs, a few TQs, and some Holleys from 600 to 750, and a really small one. And if that didn't work I already had the water injection system picked out. I was not backing out. I was both feet in!
>As it turned out, my target 8.8 Dcr was not that high.Sixteen years later I read about guys pushing over 9/1 on pump gas. Mine just happens to be OK on 87E10. So almost obviously , I have lots of headroom. Just as obviously, I am in the thick of things. I can run almost any street cam from 268 to 292 with the same set-up. The 268 puts me at 8.96/185psi.The 292 puts me at 8.3/168psi, still pretty good.A teener cam would put me at [email protected] of these days I might just try it,lol.
> So if my combo at 8.85 burns 87E10, and an estimated 9.2 needs 91, would it be safe to say that 9.0 could burn 89? IDK. And I wouldn't want someone else to make that jump on their nickle, on the strength of this post. Would I try 200psi? Yes I would.
> but it matters not, I am at the small end of the scale as to total chamber volume. At 76.3 I have no place to go. At least not easy or cheap. With the possible exception of an .028 gasket. But that is gonna drop my Q to .023, so I would be looking to cut the crowns. That's a lot of work and money to gain just a little Scr .Sometimes it's best to just leave good-enough alone.

BTW I have the small-chamber aluminum Eddies., and this post is all related to aluminum heads, in case that's not clear.
 
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Race builders will tell you your looking to just kiss the head with the piston at peak rpm. I think that's nuts...lol.
That being said, a modern forged piston, steel rods, a bore of 4.03, and a redline of 6500 I would run it at .030. Bearing in mind everything has to be right. Crank needs to be checked for stroke and indexing, block must be properly line honed and square decked, rod lengths checked, etc. "Tight" means extra care by machinist and assembled. The further apart the piston and head are, the less effective quench gets.
 
Race builders will tell you your looking to just kiss the head with the piston at peak rpm. I think that's nuts...lol.
That being said, a modern forged piston, steel rods, a bore of 4.03, and a redline of 6500 I would run it at .030. Bearing in mind everything has to be right. Crank needs to be checked for stroke and indexing, block must be properly line honed and square decked, rod lengths checked, etc. "Tight" means extra care by machinist and assembled. The further apart the piston and head are, the less effective quench gets.

They also rebuild their motors after every race.
 
thank you to everyone who posted on my question! I knew I could count on you all for great input and points , as you all know compression is power if you have the right parts in place but it is also the razors edge on pump gas and I belive one of the most critical combinations for a street motor.
 
Personally, no tighter than .040" on the squish distance for a street engine that You want to build "one more time". Carbon build-up and overheating for any reason & that
gap will close up fast. I could list all of the things that can happen when the edge of the piston starts clipping the head, but none of them are increased power, decreased
maintenance, or a longer engine life. Same for compression, carbon does two evils, raises the compression & increases the chance of detonation by it's very presence.
Put Me down for no more than 10.5:1.....as long as You have the fast-burn from your .040" gap working for You.
 
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