converter opinion question

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str12-340

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A while ago I bought an RH42 (A500) 4 speed torqueflite from a member here ( great transaction with no issues). He took it out of a street strip car he was building after not many miles when he decided to go with a manual trans. The trans came with a fresh 2800 stall lock up converter. The car I am building might only see a drag strip once or twice in its life (due to morbid curiosity). It is built to drive on long road trips and I plan to drive the bejezus out of it. The 4 speed OD Lock-up was done to get some decent gas mileage and reduce wear and tear on the motor (a mildly built 318). I think that 2800 stall is too much converter for my intanded use so I put a new stock converter in the build (factory says about 1800 stall with that motor). I was thinking about selling the stall converter off, but thought I would get some opinions here about keeping it for future use. What do people think?
 
There is no such thing as a 2800 converter with too much stall speed.

As RustyRatRod always says it’s not 1980 any more.
 
When it's locked up going down the highway there is no stall . A 2800 would not concern me not even a little bit .
 
I’d put the 2800 back in. You’ll want the higher stall to make up the difference in rotating mass between a lockup converter versus a non locking. When I converted my 350 s10 from a thm 350 with a 2500 b&m converter it was quite a burnout machine. Changed to a 700r4 with a 2500 stall/lockup. Big noticeable difference. Yes, the increased mileage is nice, but it was a. Big difference off the line accelerating. I should have gone with a 3000 stall lockup.
 
Stay with the converter,especially with a 318 you need all the help you can get down low.
 
Keep the 2800 That is what most factory 340's stalled at. A larger cam . Anything lower would be RV/plow truck. We just did a challenger with a stock 5.7 Hemi out of a truck . We installed a 3500 . The car was snappy and drove nice, The owner is in his 70's loves it. A 2800 would be perfect.

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I’d put the 2800 back in. You’ll want the higher stall to make up the difference in rotating mass between a lockup converter versus a non locking. When I converted my 350 s10 from a thm 350 with a 2500 b&m converter it was quite a burnout machine. Changed to a 700r4 with a 2500 stall/lockup. Big noticeable difference. Yes, the increased mileage is nice, but it was a. Big difference off the line accelerating. I should have gone with a 3000 stall lockup.
Are you saying that the 700 was slower off the line with the same stall? Doesn't make sense cuz the 350 has a 2.5 first and the 700 has a 3.0. I'm just wondering.
 
What @ir3333 said;
and I'll add, what is mildly built?
With typical street gears your cruise rpm can quickly fall too low for the distributor to provide adequate ignition timing and then the expected fuel-economy just never materializes.
With a .69overdrive, and say 3.23s, 65= about 1800 rpm. If you mod your V-can to the max, you might get 24degrees, but more likely is 22.
With a 2800 stall you might be able to run 18/20 degrees of initial. Your D is gonna bring in about .8 degree per 100 rpm beginning at about 1000rpm, so that comes to 6 degrees. . So then 18 +6 +22= 46*@ 1800 .... not too bad, but the engine could be wanting 56* Ima guessing.
now, if mildly built is still at 8/1 Scr and say a 262 cam, your CCP is gonna be fairly low, and so, the bottom end is gonna be pretty weak at 1800, possibly requiring a lot of throttle to maintain speed in Loc-Up. and so, the transfers may be (probably will be) topped out and the mains dribbling. This will be working against your economy plans.
There are two cures for this; one is a bigger engine with more inherent bottom-end torque, or modifying yours to do that, or just cruising at a higher rpm in the first place.
By years of testing, using a factory type distributor, I find a reasonable cruise rpm to be 65=~2400rpm. At that rpm you can set your D to deliver at least 56*. With 27" tires and .69overdrive, that will take 4.30s, for 65=2400. But, the gearing in the A500 is 2.74-1.54-1.00-.69 so the starter become 4.30 x 2.74=11.78, which with a manual trans would be great, but with an automatic, and a 2800, IMO is excessive, altho it would produce a lot of wheelspin .
IMO, the gear of choice with the A500 and 27" tires is 3.91. This will get you 65=~2180, and a starter of 10.71, which is a reasonable compromise and, about as good as it gets.
There are of course other options.
If you really want to cruise at sub 2000rpm, you will need to be able to increase the cruise timing, to get the economy.
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I myself have run a low-compression 318 with a factory cam and a manual trans, at 65= as low as 1240 rpm; but with not nearly optimum timing, it was terrible on gas. This combo had double overdrive and in First-over, this made 65=1740, now with nearly optimum timing, it made better fuel economy there. Direct was 2.76 and 65=2230, and fuel economy with now optimum timing was the best.
But I gotta tell ya, listening to the Thermoquad sing in too high a gear was SOooooo addicting, lol.
So if you want to run 65=sub 2000, for fuel-economy reasons, you will need a stand-alone timing computer of some kind.
And finally, as to a starter gear; with a low-CCP 318 in an A-body, and with a 2800TC/A500; all you need is ~9/1 and that will take a rear gear of 9/2.74=~ 3.23s
I myself would someday like to try a combo like yours but with as much CCP as the combo will take. I might even like to try it with a 273.....and the aforementioned 4.30s, lol.
 
At Cudafacthackjob, yes it was slower off the line. I could tell immediately. The weight difference between the two converters, one being a non lockup, the other a lockup which has a clutch inside is a significant difference in rotating mass. Now, if I were to pull that 2500 lockup, I would weigh it more out of just curiosity and see how much a higher stall lockup converter would cost and how much they weigh.
 
What @ir3333 said;
and I'll add, what is mildly built?
With typical street gears your cruise rpm can quickly fall too low for the distributor to provide adequate ignition timing and then the expected fuel-economy just never materializes.
With a .69overdrive, and say 3.23s, 65= about 1800 rpm. If you mod your V-can to the max, you might get 24degrees, but more likely is 22.
With a 2800 stall you might be able to run 18/20 degrees of initial. Your D is gonna bring in about .8 degree per 100 rpm beginning at about 1000rpm, so that comes to 6 degrees. . So then 18 +6 +22= 46*@ 1800 .... not too bad, but the engine could be wanting 56* Ima guessing.
now, if mildly built is still at 8/1 Scr and say a 262 cam, your CCP is gonna be fairly low, and so, the bottom end is gonna be pretty weak at 1800, possibly requiring a lot of throttle to maintain speed in Loc-Up. and so, the transfers may be (probably will be) topped out and the mains dribbling. This will be working against your economy plans.
There are two cures for this; one is a bigger engine with more inherent bottom-end torque, or modifying yours to do that, or just cruising at a higher rpm in the first place.
By years of testing, using a factory type distributor, I find a reasonable cruise rpm to be 65=~2400rpm. At that rpm you can set your D to deliver at least 56*. With 27" tires and .69overdrive, that will take 4.30s, for 65=2400. But, the gearing in the A500 is 2.74-1.54-1.00-.69 so the starter become 4.30 x 2.74=11.78, which with a manual trans would be great, but with an automatic, and a 2800, IMO is excessive, altho it would produce a lot of wheelspin .
IMO, the gear of choice with the A500 and 27" tires is 3.91. This will get you 65=~2180, and a starter of 10.71, which is a reasonable compromise and, about as good as it gets.
There are of course other options.
If you really want to cruise at sub 2000rpm, you will need to be able to increase the cruise timing, to get the economy.
----------------------------
I myself have run a low-compression 318 with a factory cam and a manual trans, at 65= as low as 1240 rpm; but with not nearly optimum timing, it was terrible on gas. This combo had double overdrive and in First-over, this made 65=1740, now with nearly optimum timing, it made better fuel economy there. Direct was 2.76 and 65=2230, and fuel economy with now optimum timing was the best.
But I gotta tell ya, listening to the Thermoquad sing in too high a gear was SOooooo addicting, lol.
So if you want to run 65=sub 2000, for fuel-economy reasons, you will need a stand-alone timing computer of some kind.
And finally, as to a starter gear; with a low-CCP 318 in an A-body, and with a 2800TC/A500; all you need is ~9/1 and that will take a rear gear of 9/2.74=~ 3.23s
I myself would someday like to try a combo like yours but with as much CCP as the combo will take. I might even like to try it with a 273.....and the aforementioned 4.30s, lol.
So many numbers and so much speculation. How do you know his car will produce alot of wheelspin? Have you seen his tires?
 
So many numbers and so much speculation. How do you know his car will produce alot of wheelspin? Have you seen his tires?

2.74-1.54-1.00-.69 so the starter become 4.30 x 2.74=11.78, which with a manual trans would be great, but with an automatic, and a 2800, IMO is excessive, altho it would produce a lot of wheelspin .

Fair question;
At a true stall of 2800, I suppose a mildly built 318 of unspecified compression might be making 300 ftlbs. With a starter gear of 11.78, this translates to 3534 ftlbs out the back door, before we even figure out what the TC is capable of.
At this point, it matters not what street tires are on it, they are gonna light up.
but Ok, lets say the 318 has a real crappy CCP and only makes 200 ftlbs at 2800, I mean that would be the saddest day of OPs life. But still,
200 x 11.78=2356 ftlbs before the TC adds it's thing, Lets say the TC has a mediocre multiplier of 1.6@zero mph. So then 1.6 x 2356=3770, which is certainly enough to break loose any pair of street tires that you can fit back there.

But honestly, that was your take-away?
 
I've preached this enough. Gettin tired of it. See post #2.
 
2.74-1.54-1.00-.69 so the starter become 4.30 x 2.74=11.78, which with a manual trans would be great, but with an automatic, and a 2800, IMO is excessive, altho it would produce a lot of wheelspin .

Fair question;
At a true stall of 2800, I suppose a mildly built 318 of unspecified compression might be making 300 ftlbs. With a starter gear of 11.78, this translates to 3534 ftlbs out the back door, before we even figure out what the TC is capable of.
At this point, it matters not what street tires are on it, they are gonna light up.
but Ok, lets say the 318 has a real crappy CCP and only makes 200 ftlbs at 2800, I mean that would be the saddest day of OPs life. But still,
200 x 11.78=2356 ftlbs before the TC adds it's thing, Lets say the TC has a mediocre multiplier of 1.6@zero mph. So then 1.6 x 2356=3770, which is certainly enough to break loose any pair of street tires that you can fit back there.

But honestly, that was your take-away?
With my mild, low comp 318 and 3500 stall I have a lot of wheelspin with Cooper cobras. With MT ET Street SS , I have very little to none depending on road surface/ tire temperature. While I doubt the OP will be driving around with stickies, ya never know. Besides, AJ, I thought you liked wheelspin.

et street ss 5-8-22 005.JPG
 
So many numbers and so much speculation. How do you know his car will produce alot of wheelspin? Have you seen his tires?
He consistently makes two mistakes and doesn’t give a flying F about it.

1; assumes the person can not control there foot on the gas pedal. Therefore, tire spin is a guarantee.

2: assumes everything else about the vehicle will fit into the little box of performance he thinks (assumes) it is.

Therefore his long winded replies are always exactly the same.
 
Thanks for all the input. It is great for for thought. I actually like to hear the differing opinions. I'll probably hold onto the 2800 converter and give it a try at some point. I have a bunch of rear end ratios from 2.94 to 3.91 available, as all my Dodges have 8 3/4 rears, which makes trying them out a lot easier. I might even be able to give some of AJ's mileage ideas a try by varying the ratio on a series of trips. I really appreciate everybody's willingness to give me your 2 cents. I'll try to remember to post stuff here when I try things out.
 
I'll probably hold onto the 2800 converter and give it a try at some point.
You have it backwards and incomplete. Install the 2800, hang onto that stock non-performance torque converter for using in something else. You’re cheating yourself out of actual torque converter performance otherwise.
 
Read AJ's posts carefully and you'll see he is usually correct. As for the converter i know guys
who have installed overdrive transmissions and their mileage was worse. The parts have to
compliment each other for the intended result.
 
Read AJ's posts carefully and you'll see he is usually correct.
Mathematically for a single scenario.
As for the converter i know guys
who have installed overdrive transmissions and their mileage was worse. The parts have to
compliment each other for the intended result.
True
 
I have the utmost respect for AJ's posts. However, he is WAAAAY overestimating his readers' ability to understand wth he's even talking about.
 
To many abbreviations and assumptions.
 
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