Distributor Vacuum Advance?

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PismoJoe

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Hey guys! Have a really basic noob question so this shouldn't be too hard!

I have a 69 440HP, and the vacuum advance on the distributor hasn't been hooked up since we installed the engine. It runs fine, it has the purple cam so idle is a bit rough.

My question is, do I need to hook this up? It doesn't seem to run any different if I plug the vacuum advance port on the dizzy. Its currently not capped, which probably isn't good, but I'm debating to hook it up or not.

I have a holley 4bbl, I'm guessing it has the timed vac port on the passengers side by the primary fuel bowl.

I've done some research and the only thing I found is that you dont need vacuum advance if the mechanical advance is dialed in right? Any help is appreciated thanks guys!
 
Interesting question. Sounds right re the mechanical advance being set up / not needing vacuum advance. We have an essentially stock 74 440 car and I run it with out vacuum advance as well.. Seemed generally to run worse with the vacuum advance hooked up and I have messed with the timing considerably while experimenting with vacuum ports on the carb. I need some timing tape on my harmonic balancer so I can see what is happening with the mechanical advance on that car... dangit.. Its like, depending on where the hose is hooked on the carb or manifold, it creates different timing characteristics. I have never heard nor understood the entire theory on vacuum advance or retard. Some say if you have a constant source of vacuum on the distributor then you can get a retard effect during full throttle acceleration which would help reduce detonation but during cruise you could have the full timing helping mileage and torque.
I bet slantsixdan would be able to add some solid clear explanation to the subject..
 
Nice thanks for the replies guys!

Rice that sounds like a pretty good explination and good idea about checking the timing with and without vacuum advance hooked up...I think I might try to get at it this weekend to pinpoint the differences in advance :thumrigh:
 
Vacuum advance only operates at light throttle cruising, it's purpose is to improve efficiency and economy. With any significant throttle opening there is not enough manifold vacuum for the vacuum advance to add timing.

The vacuum advance is normally hooked to the timed port that is half way up the side of the primary metering block. This port is exposed to the venturi above the throttle blades when they are closed so there will not be vacuum on the port at idle. Connecting it to a port exposed directly to the manifold will cause full vacuum advance at idle which can cause off idle drive-ability problems.
 
Adding to what Dave said... the vacuum advance adds timing when the engine doesn't mind it. This gives (in most cases) a decent jump in gas milage, keeps the spark plugs cleaner longer, and means the engine is more powerful at partial throttle. It has no affect on idle quality, nor does it do anything at wide open throttle. If you have a race car, or typically don't spend much time at part throttle like on the street, or have an engine combination that doesn't have a vacuum signal in the range of the vacuum pod's adjustment, then running without one makes sense. Otherwise, hook it up and set it up and it will only help.
 
Wow thanks for the replies guys! This matter is much more clear now, and it makes sense that at idle and WOT the vacuum advance make no effect on it. I'll keep you guys posted on the outcome!
 
Vacuum advance only operates at light throttle cruising, it's purpose is to improve efficiency and economy. With any significant throttle opening there is not enough manifold vacuum for the vacuum advance to add timing.

The vacuum advance is normally hooked to the timed port that is half way up the side of the primary metering block. This port is exposed to the venturi above the throttle blades when they are closed so there will not be vacuum on the port at idle. Connecting it to a port exposed directly to the manifold will cause full vacuum advance at idle which can cause off idle drive-ability problems.

Adding to what Dave said... the vacuum advance adds timing when the engine doesn't mind it. This gives (in most cases) a decent jump in gas milage, keeps the spark plugs cleaner longer, and means the engine is more powerful at partial throttle. It has no affect on idle quality, nor does it do anything at wide open throttle. If you have a race car, or typically don't spend much time at part throttle like on the street, or have an engine combination that doesn't have a vacuum signal in the range of the vacuum pod's adjustment, then running without one makes sense. Otherwise, hook it up and set it up and it will only help.
You are both correct sirs...8)..one other option is to remove the vacuum advance diaphram and get someone to re-curve your distributor...they can set your total timing and let you know where to set your intial timing...
 
You are both correct sirs...8)..one other option is to remove the vacuum advance diaphram and get someone to re-curve your distributor...they can set your total timing and let you know where to set your intial timing...

Even with a re-curved centrifgual advance that gives maximum power at WOT most street driven cars will benefit from a properly set up vacuum advance because at part throttle (light load) when the vacuum advance comes in more total timing can be used which helps fuel mileage and keep plugs cleaner.

Here's an example of mine. Initial timing is set to 18 before and add in the centrifugal advance of 16 degrees the total timing is 34 degrees all in by 2500 rpm. If I go much more than that it will spark knock at WOT. The vacuum advance comes in at part throttle with an additional 17 degrees of timing so that puts the total at 51 degrees. If you notice I said earlier it will spark knock if I go much more than 34 degrees total timing yet I can run 51 degrees due to the vacuum advance without any spark knock. The reason is it's at a part throttle light load. At full throttle it would spark knock like crazy. Running the vacuum advance raised my fuel mileage approx. 3 mpg. and the plugs stay cleaner.
 
I am glad you clarified that fishy68. I personally was unclear regarding why not simply dial a nice rpm based centrifugal curve into the distributor, and was thinking that it took out the throttle feed back mechanism to the distributor timing. Gotta have that throttle position or more specifically engine load vs throttle based feedback controlled timing on a street car that pulls hills or cruises freeways..
 
vac advance is a gas milage thing, it's only relevant at cruise.


as soon as you accelerate and really load the engine... it's gone and all on mechanical advance.

because the vac advance cannot fall off/disengage fast enough, on high compression/boarder line pump gas compression you may hear a momentary cack/ping upon stomping on it from a cruise. If it was computer [instantly] controlled we could maybe avoid this.

carefully pay attention to the heat range of the plug, with 46-52* of timing you may over heat a plug thats already the hottest the mechanical advance/compression will handle w/o vac adv hooked up.
 
I buy the mopar performance dizzy kit,plug the carb vacuum fitting, and set total.The MP dizzies SUPPOSE to have full advance by 2000 rpm . I check for 38 degrees,all in by 2000 rpm. Easy to do,and done right that sucker will respond. If your using standard gasoline you may have to tone down the total number a tad but she will still respond. Buy an adjustable knob type timing light to verify at what rpm full advance is occuring.
 
I buy the mopar performance dizzy kit,plug the carb vacuum fitting, and set total.The MP dizzies SUPPOSE to have full advance by 2000 rpm . I check for 38 degrees,all in by 2000 rpm. Easy to do,and done right that sucker will respond. If your using standard gasoline you may have to tone down the total number a tad but she will still respond. Buy an adjustable knob type timing light to verify at what rpm full advance is occuring.

The nice thing about the MP distributor is the ability to adjust the amount of mechanical advance, the rate at which it comes in and the ability to adjust when the vacuum advance starts to come in. Mallory sells a nice tuning kit (#29014) for this distributor.

As it is delivered it has a fast advance rate but otherwise is set up for a stock engine. If you have a bigger cam, more compression or aftermarket heads it is not optimal and your engine won't provide max power if you just install it.

FWIW, 38 total is a good ball park number for a BB but small blocks with open chamber heads typically make max power in the 34-36 range and closed chamber heads like the magnum in the 32-34 range. And as others have stated the vacuum advance will improve economy and minimize plug fowling at cruising speeds.

If your car is driven on the street it will be spending 80-90% of it's operational time at light throttle cruising so it only makes sense to dial the vacuum advance in too.
 
Good information here for sure. It all makes sense... Now I am really happy I have a new MP Elec Ig and Dist kit on my 360 duster.. With all this info, I can tune it for street cruise.

Hey, you all know if it is necessary / a fairly good idea to Phase the MP Elec Ig Distributors?

I read on 4seconds flat and some other places probably on this wesite here, that this phasing was a major issue that should be addressed.. I understand phasing is getting the rotor to point directly (accurately as possible) at the poles on the distributor during all rpm, to prevent cross fire and minimize the arc distance inside the dist..


:)
 
The phasing issues were with factory distributors. You won't have an issue with the MP unit.
 
Even though it's from a chevy guy it is a good read

TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101

Written by John Hinckley! Thank you John for sharing this with everyone! You are an asset to the Corvette Community.

The most important concept to understand is that lean mixtures, such as at idle and steady highway cruise, take longer to burn than rich mixtures; idle in particular, as idle mixture is affected by exhaust gas dilution. This requires that lean mixtures have "the fire lit" earlier in the compression cycle (spark timing advanced), allowing more burn time so that peak cylinder pressure is reached just after TDC for peak efficiency and reduced exhaust gas temperature (wasted combustion energy). Rich mixtures, on the other hand, burn faster than lean mixtures, so they need to have "the fire lit" later in the compression cycle (spark timing retarded slightly) so maximum cylinder pressure is still achieved at the same point after TDC as with the lean mixture, for maximum efficiency.
The centrifugal advance system in a distributor advances spark timing purely as a function of engine rpm (irrespective of engine load or operating conditions), with the amount of advance and the rate at which it comes in determined by the weights and springs on top of the autocam mechanism. The amount of advance added by the distributor, combined with initial static timing, is "total timing" (i.e., the 34-36 degrees at high rpm that most SBC's like). Vacuum advance has absolutely nothing to do with total timing or performance, as when the throttle is opened, manifold vacuum drops essentially to zero, and the vacuum advance drops out entirely; it has no part in the "total timing" equation.
At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire that lean, diluted mixture earlier in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the proper point, so the vacuum advance can (connected to manifold vacuum, not "ported" vacuum - more on that aberration later) is activated by the high manifold vacuum, and adds about 15 degrees of spark advance, on top of the initial static timing setting (i.e., if your static timing is at 10 degrees, at idle it's actually around 25 degrees with the vacuum advance connected). The same thing occurs at steady-state highway cruise; the mixture is lean, takes longer to burn, the load on the engine is low, the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance is again deployed, and if you had a timing light set up so you could see the balancer as you were going down the highway, you'd see about 50 degrees advance (10 degrees initial, 20-25 degrees from the centrifugal advance, and 15 degrees from the vacuum advance) at steady-state cruise (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at 50mph).
When you accelerate, the mixture is instantly enriched (by the accelerator pump, power valve, etc.), burns faster, doesn't need the additional spark advance, and when the throttle plates open, manifold vacuum drops, and the vacuum advance can returns to zero, retarding the spark timing back to what is provided by the initial static timing plus the centrifugal advance provided by the distributor at that engine rpm; the vacuum advance doesn't come back into play until you back off the gas and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the mixture again becomes lean.
The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean and rich mixture conditions. By today's terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but it did a good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle cooling, with absolutely ZERO effect on wide-open throttle performance, as vacuum advance is inoperative under wide-open throttle conditions. In modern cars with computerized engine controllers, all those sensors and the controller change both mixture and spark timing 50 to 100 times per second, and we don't even HAVE a distributor any more - it's all electronic.
Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.
If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.
What about the Harry high-school non-vacuum advance polished billet "whizbang" distributors you see in the Summit and Jeg's catalogs? They're JUNK on a street-driven car, but some people keep buying them because they're "race car" parts, so
 
Over here, I need to observe my initial, mechanical and vacuum numbers.. I am hooked to manifold vac.. Heck I thought ig timing was all about just listening to the engine after six or ten beers.. ;)
 
The problem with that article is that that engineers were using ported vacuum long before they could spell emissions so it's certainly not something that was done to meet emissions requirements. Also, if you are relying on the vacuum advance to add additional timing to clean up the idle the second you touch the throttle it goes away and you are now in a situation you don't have enough timing (the rpm's aren't high enough to be adding enough mechical yet) for just off idle performance. This results in throttle tip in hesitation and general poor light throttle performance.

You are much better off setting the initial where it needs to be for a clean idle and off idle performance. Set the total to where it needs to be for max high rpm power. Then adjust the rate that it comes in so you do not have any mid rpm detonation issues. Then lastly add ported vacuum advance to add the additional timing needed for cruising. Doing this way also minimizes the interaction between the various settings making dialing it in much easier.

When they had to start meeting emissions requirements in the early 70' they quite often used a manifold vacuum connection but also had thermal switchs and/or gear position switches that controled when the vacuum advance worked.

I purchased a new AMC Hornet X in 73 and it had both. When the engine was cold you got no vacuum advance and when warm you only got vacuum advance when the tranny was in 3rd gear. It also had a dashpot that would control the rate that the throttle would close so if you blipped the throttle it would take a second or two to slow down to idle speed. The car never ran well until I removed all those contraptions and hook the advance to a ported connection.

My sister also purchased a Mercury Zephyer in lat 70's it had a vacuum advance with vacuum applied to both sides so it could advance and retard the timing. This was controlled by an electric module.
 
Ahh! Ported, Manifold, Ahhh!

When I like 17 or 18, a friend who was a 16 year old road maniac mad man told me to use ported vacuum. He never steered me wrong.. He called manifold vacuum "vacuum retard" Cause when you punch it the timing retards..
 
I have always thought ported also just because it is there at part throttle leading up to full mechanical advance.
 
Post #20. I know it is an old post. Get a new friend......

Because when you punch it, both ported & manifold VA retard....
 
Post #20. I know it is an old post. Get a new friend......

Because when you punch it, both ported & manifold VA retard....

Yea, that dude died b4 17 years old. He got a pontiac cyl head to the back of the head. Apparently you shouldn't drive with engine parts in your car and hit a tree.. Not sure if he knew everything but who does at that age or ever.
Ported vacuum from my understanding is venturi signal based. So it should increase as velocity increases thru the carb. I've been running manifold connected on a low comp 440 and I customized the dist w stronger springs and a limiting plate for the weights and total cent adv. Works great. We experienced spark knock when connected to ported vacuum under heavy mid throttle acceleration. Thats when we made the corrective changes. What I like with the setup is that under quite heavy load we are solely operating on the weights / springs for the curve and then the limiting plate to stop the curve. When under light load we get more advance to compensate for the low compression (stock 74 440 with mild cam and setup) and low fuel / air load. Seems like a nice dynamic / adaptive / load based timing setup.

Lots of good technical info posts in this thread.
 
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