dirty white boy
50 yr old Juvenal delinquent
naw,..i agreed with ya,...idk who disagreed,..even went back n checked made sure i didnt have a erra in my agreement check...cubes is king all else being equal...
Do I go with the 318 or the 360?
- Thread starter 1970boy
- Start date
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If both have stock iron heads, neither has that amount of power..Somebody's blowin sunshine up your skirt.
That said, if you have neither and are going to actually buy something, get the 360.
That said, if you have neither and are going to actually buy something, get the 360.
A bigger motor using a will allow you to get the same amount of power as a smaller engine using a smaller cam. In other words, if you want 350 HP, a 318 will need a bigger cam than a 360 to do so, assuming everything else is identical. Smaller cam means more power at lower RPMs and better street manners.
I sit corrected and realize it was duke boy. Still waiting for his price list so I can whittle it down. I don’t know how he comes up with the 318 being astounding expensive!!!
So since you asked, I went and grabbed the copy of the article I have in my notebook as originally I was planning on copying this very build in my original plan for my dart using one of the spare '70 318s I have. I eventually decided to go big block since the cost to build was actually gonna be cheaper to exceed the horsepower I wanted.
Now when I say astronomical, I'm referring to this combo. This is a combo found in the April 2004 issue of hot rod magazine. I'm sure it is NOT THE ONLY combo out there but this is the combo I had in mind when I made the "astronomical" statement that seems to have sir rumblefish all stirred up. When you look at the cost it'd take to do that these days, the cost per horsepower is astronomical if you're comparing a 400 hp 318 vs the work for a 400 hp 360.
The parts list isn't what shot the price up in the 318 they built per say but rather the extra machining costs. For example, they had the bores notched, I'm assuming for valve clearance to cylinder wall issues, a 360 will not need that. According to the price list I have from the shop that did my 440, cylinder bore notching is 150 per cylinder. So add 1200 extra to the 318 already.
On top of that, they used a set of fully ported heads with bigger valves. There's easily another 1200-1500 bucks. Now before you say they'd need to do that for a 360, well not necessarily as there are some magnum headed 360 engines breaking the 400 hp without porting. Hotrod even did such a build in their February 2005 issue, which I also happen to have.
They used stock magnum heads on a 9.5:1 compression 360LA block that were re drilled for the LA intake pattern. They drilled the new holes themselves according to the article, so no added cost there.
Rest of the parts are similar enough price wise to that of the 318 parts to not matter for this argument.
So let's call it 2500 extra for the 318 build. That's nearly double what'd it'd cost in parts and labor for the 360. So call the total build around 5000. So 5000 to build a maxed out, 401 hp at 6350 318 vs a 2500 dollar 403 hp at 5100 rpms 360......
So I stand by the notion that the 400 hp 318 I was referring too in my original statement. Paying double to net the same result is astronomical to me.
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Yes, go with the 318 or the 360.
Dukeboy_318
I have used 2.02 valves in a 318 without a bore notch. What valves did they use?
There is also enough cfm on a stock 360 head for 400 hp. (IF the head, LA or Magnum is ready to run) Redrilling Magnum heads for an LA intake is the rags call. Why? I don’t know. There is the Mopar M1 dual plane, M1 single plane, Edelbrock RPM and (a couple of) Indy intakes to purchase outright new or used. IMO, drilling for the LA is generally pointless unless there is a want to use a particular intake not offered in the Magnums vertical attachment method. Like the 6 pack or antique dual plane dual quad (Edelbrock) or the split single plane dual quad from Weiand.
Is that, OMG!, I just saved you $1500 on porting, $1200-$1500 on bore notching, it is sure looking good!
A route I’d rather take for ether engine would be ether the iron EQ heads like what RAMM used or a set of Edelbrocks on top. The cost of rebuilding iron heads, which really anybody faces with untouched old iron, is not the best/cost effective way of getting there, (though location and machinists cost vary widely) though cheaper, the ceiling performance is limited.
HP per dollar spent is IMO directly related to the parts used (there condition, new or in need of being rebuilt or modified for use) and the cubic inch displacement. So no matter the engine used, less power is always generated from the smaller engine. No argument there. In the 318’s case, less power is in the form of low end torque. Not maximum rpm hp. Though I don’t think it will equal the hp of a larger engine.
Mopar’s 360/380hp create engine normally dynos over 400 hp with the stock magnum heads correct? This should show that there is enough flow in the head for 360 cubes for the 400+ hp mark easy enough. That would also allow it for the 318. Which would show more ceiling potential than the 360, cube for cube. Not in totality.
Again, the only thing more expensive on building a 318 is the pistons.
But I did wonder what people pay for internal and/or external balancing costs! The difference in dampers.
Don’t always Believe what the rags show as the only way to skin a cat. Or there costs. Sometimes following a magazine engine build is an insane move.
I have used 2.02 valves in a 318 without a bore notch. What valves did they use?
There is also enough cfm on a stock 360 head for 400 hp. (IF the head, LA or Magnum is ready to run) Redrilling Magnum heads for an LA intake is the rags call. Why? I don’t know. There is the Mopar M1 dual plane, M1 single plane, Edelbrock RPM and (a couple of) Indy intakes to purchase outright new or used. IMO, drilling for the LA is generally pointless unless there is a want to use a particular intake not offered in the Magnums vertical attachment method. Like the 6 pack or antique dual plane dual quad (Edelbrock) or the split single plane dual quad from Weiand.
Is that, OMG!, I just saved you $1500 on porting, $1200-$1500 on bore notching, it is sure looking good!
A route I’d rather take for ether engine would be ether the iron EQ heads like what RAMM used or a set of Edelbrocks on top. The cost of rebuilding iron heads, which really anybody faces with untouched old iron, is not the best/cost effective way of getting there, (though location and machinists cost vary widely) though cheaper, the ceiling performance is limited.
HP per dollar spent is IMO directly related to the parts used (there condition, new or in need of being rebuilt or modified for use) and the cubic inch displacement. So no matter the engine used, less power is always generated from the smaller engine. No argument there. In the 318’s case, less power is in the form of low end torque. Not maximum rpm hp. Though I don’t think it will equal the hp of a larger engine.
Mopar’s 360/380hp create engine normally dynos over 400 hp with the stock magnum heads correct? This should show that there is enough flow in the head for 360 cubes for the 400+ hp mark easy enough. That would also allow it for the 318. Which would show more ceiling potential than the 360, cube for cube. Not in totality.
Again, the only thing more expensive on building a 318 is the pistons.
But I did wonder what people pay for internal and/or external balancing costs! The difference in dampers.
Don’t always Believe what the rags show as the only way to skin a cat. Or there costs. Sometimes following a magazine engine build is an insane move.
First: I never said it was the only way. Matter of fact I said it wasn't. I also stated that I was speaking specifically about the build in the article, not ALL 318 builds. I will not defend their choices as I was not the one making those. I merely stating that the combo, as they built it, is too expensive for what they gained. If you can do the same thing cheaper, by all means, be my guest. Put your money where your mouth is(in this case finger tips are) and build one out. Post up your combo and results and I'll prep the human sacrifice to the almighty Lord Rumblefish.
Second: I tried to answer your questions inside your quote, the answers are in BOLD.
j par
Well-hung Member
I was hell bent on building and stroking my 318. Almost everything cost the same except pistons (as mentioned in post #18) in the end I just couldn't justify spending more money to get less cubic inches and less power. I definitely wouldn't buy that 318 that someone's already beat on and is looking to cash out so they can go build a 408 stroker with more power. There seems to be a little bit of information missing here like what's in the car now and what kind of rear end or are you looking to get the complete drivetrain rear end transmission and motor? Here's my advice or my two cents if you will first off anything that guy post 18 says you'd be best off to listen to. Second don't buy anybody's old junk. I had a block prepped for $450 that includes boring cam bearings the whole nine yards and I paid the Machine Shop 150 bucks for the block which in essence guarantees a good block. So that's 600. I paid about $1,400 to Jegs for the complete stroker kit that's crank rods Pistons bearings and rings so now we're at 2 Grant. now you have a solid bottom end. Now you could do anything you want put whatever head whatever turbo whatever nitrous whatever you want to do you have a solid foundation and you're not building your car like a kid. Putting big heads on a motor or big carburetors or that kind of stuff but actually building from the bottom up. A nice block that you can do anything you want to. Imho if you're even asking this question a 408 stroker would scare the dog crap out of ya! Among the parts that my stroker has broken - the brand new spooed eight and three-quarter 489 case caps blew off after about 20 passes. A harmonic balancer damn near spun and flew off the front of it. Remember it's a whole combination, you build up a badass motor and it's going to start breaking parts.
I'm sure a lot would like to know your whole combination now and how you plan to transform it into this other stuff? And now back to your regularly Scheduled bickering over? I've kind of lost track now....
I'm sure a lot would like to know your whole combination now and how you plan to transform it into this other stuff? And now back to your regularly Scheduled bickering over? I've kind of lost track now....
Are any of us right?
As posted by another member;
Max horsepower with EQ heads?
Max horsepower with EQ heads?
@dukeboy_318
I read it all and seen the answers in bold. (Thumbs up!)
I read it all and seen the answers in bold. (Thumbs up!)
interesting thread.... I enjoyed the read ! 
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
$1500.00 to notch the bores is a giant screw job. It doesn't take 15 hours to notch bores, and that's at $100.00/hour.
Plus, as RF said, no need to do it. The valves open on the centerline of the bore. It's not a 273.
I wonder how many unknowingly paid the piper?
I wonder how many magazines writers actually know what the hell there doing?
I wonder if they can actually write up and show an inexpensive engine?
Does every build need that high dollar part? Naaaaa, not really.
Do you need to purchase everything new in the box? Aaaaaa, not really. But if it is, that’s on you and I won’t say nothin!
I am by far a person that will penny pinch every purchase for the cheapest possible route. I also don’t complain at the price total. Because engine building isn’t cheap. The only thing I want when the work is done is “quality” first!
1970boy
Well-Known Member
So for those wondering this is the situation, my car is pretty much done as far as cosmetics so only focusing on drivetrain. My buddy built up the drivetrain for his valiant which is the 318 with the Keith black pistons an whatnot and new top end...this engine has not been fired just built to be ready for the car once it was finished..he sat on the car and lost interest but still has the 318 and will give me the rear end and driveshaft from his valiant for a deal... on the other end is the 360 the 360 is in a friends barracuda and he only did the cam, heads, intake and carb but this deal comes with a transmission (rebuilt 904) and the rear end and driveshaft— the 318 claims to be around 425 hp and the 360 a bit over 400 hp I can get each package for about the same price was trying to see if there’s any benefits I didn’t see to the 318 over the 360 when driving them daily, also wanted some info on driving characteristics but from all the information I received I will probably go the 360 route because it leaves the door open for things in the future...at this point still feel free to throw in your thoughts or opinions on the matter.. thx for all the help guys! I appreciate it!
j par
Well-hung Member
I would hope that we are giving you some other options as well? Not just solely having to purchase one or the other of those two Motors. There's a lot to be said for building one of your own. Also you kind of get to get your hands in there a little bit and know what you're talking about instead of a lot of these guys on the internet who buy nice stuff put it in their car and tell everybody how great it is. But really literally knowing nothing about the internal parts because they've never seen them. This way you won't be another one of these Jack Wheels out here talking about their motor that someone else built for them and they really know nothing about it except for what somebody's told them.
What rear end are we talkin'? A 7 1/4 I can't give away and a 8 3/4 limited slip with almost any gear is hard to find for under $1000. Also the gear must make sense for a driver.
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j par
Well-hung Member
That's why I say an 8 3/4 is a waste of money.
It sure is, especially when 2.02 valves fit without notches. Been there, done that.
It's way easier and cheaper nowadays (since people think A body 8.750s are gold) to just find a nine inch, narrow it to fit and go. A truck nine inch around here can be had under 100 bucks if you wait it out. I got one for free from a friend. It will eventually go under RobKat when and IF the eight inch breaks. I'm bettin it won't.
dirty white boy
50 yr old Juvenal delinquent
do you need a trans?? a rear end??? what you got now and what are your end goals?? a 360 converter wont work with 318 and visa versa there balanced differently!! we can help ya live your dream but gotta know what ya dreams are to steer ya right...
The converters can interchange with the correct flexplate.
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