Exactly what makes a MOPAR a "Matching Numbers" car?

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I think that matching number means that the vin on the car in various places matches the block and the trans case, but the real question is, WHY DOES ANYBODY GIVE A DAMN??? 45 years ago having the Vin match the motor and trans was a good indication that the car was unmolested and still worked like Ma Mopar intended - you didn't have to deal with unknown parts in the drivetrain put together by god knows who. Flash forward 45 years and all it means is that the block and trans case are original to the car. Chances are they've all been rebuilt once, maybe more, and unless somebody saved the receipts and you know who did it was an upstanding builder, matching numbers tells you next to nothing
 
I think a lot of guys that grew up with these cars would love to have one with all it's original parts still in tact just like they drove them when they were young.
But that probably wouldn't mean much to the younger guys that didn't live through the Era.
...and that's ok
 
Some people want all the VINs to match but also want numbers on wiper motors, distributors, alternators, starters etc etc etc to be correct for that car. That stuff matters to some people because it does that is what they value that is what they like. If it doesn't matter to you consider yourself lucky you don't have to fret over all of that kind of stuff.
 
I think a lot of guys that grew up with these cars would love to have one with all it's original parts still in tact just like they drove them when they were young.
To offer a different perspective, I'm 67 and I did grow up with these cars and we spent most of our time and money taking the factory parts off and replacing them with stuff from the speed shop :rofl:
 
Like the old guy said " Boy, unless you were there and lived it, you will never really understand." Not sure if he was talking cars, women or war??
 
When I was a kid, I was on top of the world driving my 1971/1972 Demon (avitar). That's why I bought my project when I retired. I didn't care about numbers then, and I still don't as long as it's legal. But it sure is tough avoiding the rabbit hole when you are putting them back together......and you have a little cash!
 
I think that matching number means that the vin on the car in various places matches the block and the trans case, but the real question is, WHY DOES ANYBODY GIVE A DAMN??? 45 years ago having the Vin match the motor and trans was a good indication that the car was unmolested and still worked like Ma Mopar intended - you didn't have to deal with unknown parts in the drivetrain put together by god knows who. Flash forward 45 years and all it means is that the block and trans case are original to the car. Chances are they've all been rebuilt once, maybe more, and unless somebody saved the receipts and you know who did it was an upstanding builder, matching numbers tells you next to nothing


I"ll tell you why str-12-340,

1. Money.

2. Perceived value.

3. My car is better than yours because....
 
^^^^True! And...my dog is bigger, better and meaner than your dog. .
MY dog hunts, yours don't! :poke:

Sell a 70 Superbird at BJ and see IF you get more $$$$ if the #'s match! Yes you will! But that #s 318 in my 70 Duster means nothing!!!!:BangHead:
 
Sure, you get more money, but it takes more to get there. Chances are that it is a losing proposition either way unless you were way ahead of the curve and got in before people went nuts!
 
Sure, you get more money, but it takes more to get there. Chances are that it is a losing proposition either way unless you were way ahead of the curve and got in before people went nuts!
Yep, 54 years in the family on my Bee and 33 on the Bird now. You'd cry if I told you want I paid for the Bird....
 
Another "Can of Worms" thread LOL

To answer the OP's question my definition of #'s matching is as follows:
Numbers Matching has 3 levels
1) Dash Vin matching stamped body #'s, engine and trans #'s
2) Components listed on build sheet match IE rad, shroud, fan, wheels, T bars etc
3) Then Date Codes of various parts
More $$$ as you move 1-3

I don't know what the legality is when you sell a car where the vin indicates the car is a Slant6 auto and the car was changed to a 440 4speed or when the car had drum brakes but they were changed to discs or.......
It's your car, do what you want to it.
Is a 68 6 cyl Barracuda car changed to a 340 Formula S worth the same as a true #'s matching Formula S I think not.
What if the seller doesn't disclose this info?
Let the buyer beware
 
Sure, you get more money, but it takes more to get there. Chances are that it is a losing proposition either way unless you were way ahead of the curve and got in before people went nuts!
Very true. I think that unless you can do most, if not all your own work, you will almost always lose money when you sell.
 
Chances are that it is a losing proposition either way unless you were way ahead of the curve and got in before people went nuts!
I believe that the only people that make money on a great build are the folks that you might farm work out to - machine shop, paint shop. Nobody should get into this stuff to make money. Build your car, build it like YOU want it, and enjoy the hell out of it. If you never sell it it won't matter how much somebody else thinks it is worth.

I see guys churn through car after car - fix them up and sell them off, buy another one and start all over again. One of my Darts I bought in 1975, another one in 1989, and they just get better and better over time, one improvement after another over the long haul.
 
Its all about the price.

There's a huge difference in a car being original and one that is restored to original .


If you are going to ask $100,000.00 for an original, 1967 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible Formula S with 383 and a 4-speed , it better have every number accurate , matching and have the provinance to prove what you say. If not, its a 35-40,000 car at best.

Me, I could care less. I'll take a clone anyday. I don't have to worry about numbers, the cars usually look as good or better and in a lot of cases are better optioned and are assembled with the same attention to detail as the originals. Plus, 90% of people looking at it will never know.

Even Worman's cars are never "original" once they leave Graveyard Cars. They are essentially "recreations" of the original using as many NOS or reproduced parts as it takes to finish the job. I'm not taking anything away from his work as it is impeccable and the cars look amazing when finished, its just that they are no longer original cars, just original appearing with the correct numbers and identification in place.
Exactly. Why would Worman worry about numbers matching when they’re going to replace just about every piece of metal on the car. Oh, but keep the small section of the trunk rail so it has the numbers?
 
I think a lot of guys that grew up with these cars would love to have one with all it's original parts still in tact just like they drove them when they were young.
But that probably wouldn't mean much to the younger guys that didn't live through the Era.
...and that's ok
I grew up with them and I can assure you I did not even get mine home before I stopped at the local speed shop and bought every go fast part I could afford. Then take all them pretty box’s home rip that OEM crap off and bolt on go fast parts! But I grew up in a racers family so it was in my DNA. I absolutely love a 100 point restored concourse car. I admire the effort and work that goes into doing it. But line it up next to a red white and blue Sox and Martin rig and my attention is fleeting!
 
Matching numbers to me is when you sell a car to a guy and give him a number and he says, that is what I was thinking then you have matching numbers
 
Another "Can of Worms" thread LOL

To answer the OP's question my definition of #'s matching is as follows:
Numbers Matching has 3 levels
1) Dash Vin matching stamped body #'s, engine and trans #'s
2) Components listed on build sheet match IE rad, shroud, fan, wheels, T bars etc
3) Then Date Codes of various parts
More $$$ as you move 1-3

I don't know what the legality is when you sell a car where the vin indicates the car is a Slant6 auto and the car was changed to a 440 4speed or when the car had drum brakes but they were changed to discs or.......
It's your car, do what you want to it.
Is a 68 6 cyl Barracuda car changed to a 340 Formula S worth the same as a true #'s matching Formula S I think not.
What if the seller doesn't disclose this info?
Let the buyer beware

Agree !! Another can of worms!

I'm betting most of the regulations regarding powertrain swaps are emissions related. The rest is just added features and options.

The only thing you can't swap car to car is the VIN# . Its totally illegal!

(There... I just opened a fresh "can of worms" LOL !!)
 
Agree !! Another can of worms!

I'm betting most of the regulations regarding powertrain swaps are emissions related. The rest is just added features and options.

The only thing you can't swap car to car is the VIN# . Its totally illegal!

(There... I just opened a fresh "can of worms" LOL !!)
You need to specify what brand and type of car. GM and Ford people are not so anal on the numbers crap. If that is your game, great! But don’t try to force everyone else to follow what you believe. I have worked in the GM Ford and Chrysler plants as a millwright and they use parts to keep the line going and at the end of the lines they have a manual tag machine and if the cars numbers have been screwed up that a new tag or number won’t fix they are taken off the sheet and either to the body shop or scrapped. These were never intended to be anything but machines until they were collectible. They are either worth $500.00 scrap or $500000.00 depending on the buyer and seller
 
Let me be more clear. Factory correct happens once, as it rolls off the assembly line and even some of those cars were not numbers matching or factory spec correct. You know we ran out of parts so we substituted kind of thing. You and I were not there.

So who knows what your car was like on day one?

Restoration experts and car show judges can run around chasing their tails only to change their opinion somewhere down the road.
I was there a while. I saw things. Like purple duster black interior white 340 stripe white vt /6 auto buckets console auto Build sheet 340 code best I remember. So I’d say numbers were 98% accurate.
 
I liked FantomWorks in Virginia Beach, run by a retired USN pilot (hence name). Not only do they show the steps and do practical rebuilds, they detail the bills, which may blow your mind. I recall most bills were ~$80K for a basic rebuild - paint, mechanical repairs, interior, no Mark Worman "correct" restorations, no Mike Foose resto-mods, nor Garage Squad "rip out engine, big-block in" (and who pays?). Most customers were paying such prices because a nostalgic car, like their first car, or from first date with spouse.

One FW episode replaced upper ball joints on an A-body. The mechanic used a torch and a pipe wrench, not knowing about the special socket (I have both sizes). At least he knew they unscrew. They dropped the show, stating that filming was too invasive to the shop work.

I don't watch any now, not from lack of interest, but rather dropped cable for streaming (Netflix, Prime, ...) and most shows are now behind the MotorTrend paywall. I only find old Wheeler Dealer shows when they began in England, and seen all. That was a good show and I think got better after the move to L.A. (Mike Brewer retreated since to U.K.), and even after Ed China balked and left for lower tech content. Anthony grew on me, though dialog with Mike was a bit cheeky, and now Ant has his own show in L.A. Car Fix in Tampa was good with the original duo, and the Girls show in same studio was good (shows run by Garage Squad guy). Perhaps the worst were the Desert Valley, AZ junkyard show and the Miami flipper w/ gold chains show. The former had a Barracuda rear window sitting on a stand and kept talking about how expensive it would be to replace, then amazingly it fell to the ground and shattered, with cameras perfectly staged to catch that. The later shop had some suspicious circumstances I read about later, like a large fire and insurance claim, and don't recall that fast talker ever fixing the cars anyway.
 
My 1978 LRT has everything matching except the 360 engine. It has a W in the numbers pad. But it has all 1978 date coded items like water pump, intake, chrome valve covers...

I bought it used from the first owner, He had a invoice from the local Dodge dealer that they replaced the engine with a factory warranty engine due to rear main oil leak.
 
And I stopped watching Graveyard Carz when Worman started telling his daughter at least three times every show "You are a product of my loins" while pointing down with both hands towards his 'Nads'.

Such a misogynistic pig.
 
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