Front Suspension refurb

[72bluNblu]

Most of the kits you buy the ball joints and tie rod ends have plastic cups verses the metal cups. I piece everything out at NAPA and request Moog parts. I also only use OEM rubber style bushings over a poly style. To each his own. But the less after market junk you put on the easier it will be to maintain in the future .

Proforged ball joints and tie rods have metal cups. Moog has been absolute garbage for over 10 years now, no mechanic worth his salt would still recommend them for most parts and using oxidized vintage rubber isn't a real solution for anyone that actually drives their car. That's show pony stuff. There's multiple threads here showing Moog parts that just don't fit and are completely out of spec. The only part they make that has remained decent is the K7103 offset UCA bushings, although I'm sure that's bound to change at some point as well.

To me all the Hype with the Adjustable struts . Greasable LCA pins, Poly bushings and all the other things they sell are for owners that think they are going road racing with these old sway backs.. You will never out handle a car with a complete conversion to coil overs with a Rack & Pinon. adding all these new designed parts are like putting lipstick on a Pig. When your done its still a Hog.

Use all OEM style parts with the OEM suspension. Or spend the money and buy a complete aftermarket style with a rack. The steering box will always be the obsolete part no matter what you add.

Never out handle a car with a complete conversion to coil overs! LOL!!! This shows how little you know about suspension in one sentence.

Moparty has been won several times now by Ken Chenoweth, and his Challenger is still running torsion bars. There's a Super Bee with a QA1 coil over set up, but I believe runner up is the best it's done so far. So yeah, there's multiple races and competitions where torsion bar Mopars beat converted Mopars. There was a member with a fully RMS suspended Duster that got absolutely flogged in an autoX by the Hotchkis Taxi. A 4 door B body with torsion bars. There was a whole magazine article on that. So never? Yeah that's 100% false and has been proven multiple times.

The fastest Mopars in AutoX and road racing are still running torsion bars.

In the 70's Steering boxes were also better from the 2 wheel drive trucks. They always worked the best. Steered like power but yet still had the feel of the road.

Whether Dodge trucks in the 1970s had "better" manual steering boxes than Dodge cars from the same era depends on what aspects of "better" you're focusing on:
1. Durability and robustness

• Truck Steering Boxes: Generally, truck steering boxes are built to handle heavier loads and more demanding conditions (off-road, towing, etc.) than car steering boxes. This often translates to a more robust construction, potentially including stronger materials and larger components designed to withstand greater stress and impact.
• Potential for Heavy-Duty Use: The heavier-duty design of truck steering boxes might be considered "better" in terms of long-term durability and ability to handle strenuous tasks. For example, the Dodge W200 and W300 trucks used in the 70s were available with heavy-duty steering box options, suggesting an intent for them to handle significant loads.

2. Steering ratio and feel

• Car Steering Boxes: Manual steering boxes in performance-oriented cars of that era (like Mopar muscle cars) might have offered quicker steering ratios (meaning fewer turns lock-to-lock) for a more responsive and sporty feel. However, even these could be criticized for slow ratios compared to modern cars, according to HOT ROD Network.
• Truck Steering Boxes: Truck manual steering boxes, on the other hand, might have had slower steering ratios (more turns lock-to-lock) to aid in maneuvering in tight spaces or when towing heavy loads, prioritizing control over responsiveness.

Conclusion
It's likely that Dodge trucks from the 70s were equipped with manual steering boxes that were more robust and durable than those found in Dodge cars of the same period, making them "better" in terms of handling heavy loads and potentially lasting longer under demanding conditions. However, the "better" steering ratio and feel could be subjective, with some drivers preferring the quicker response of a car's steering box, while others might prefer the slower, more controlled feel of a truck's steering box, especially when carrying weight.
Ultimately, the "better" choice depends on the specific intended use and the driver's preferences.

Huh? The '70's truck steering boxes are just plain old worm and ball design, the only difference between them and the car boxes is the size of the sector shafts and the bearings used in the cases.

Not sure what the point was for any of that, since you're not gonna put a truck box in a car anyway. You can beef up a car steering box with bearings if you like, but a Borgeson conversion or a Flaming River manual steering box are probably better options.

I would use rubber, not poly, bushings for a few reasons...
- factory engineers were not stupid & used rubber for a reason

This is false logic. The factory engineers were very smart people, but that doesn't mean everything they did was "the best". The engineers have never had free rein in a major production vehicle. You have production tolerances and the assembly line to consider, and COST, which dictates pretty much everything for a production car.

The factory used rubber bushings (and still do!) because they're
1- cheap
2- easy to install on the assembly line on a platform that has large assembly tolerances
3- are maintenance free (until they wear out anyway)

Poly and Delrin outperform rubber bushings, and last longer, but they also require a more precise installation. The tolerances have to be tighter and sometimes that requires modifications or different parts during installation to make sure that everything fits and works appropriately. But on the assembly line 50+ years ago none of that was gonna happen.

- rubber absorbs road shock better, the reason it is used

Again, rubber is used because it's cheap and doesn't require maintenance. The factory can install it and forget it. If poly were cheaper, easy to install and maintenance free they'd use that and tweak the suspension settings.

- car in question does not have a frame. Cars like my GTO had a frame, & body was rubber mounted to frame, providing an extra layer of 'road shock' protection to the body...& the occupants!

Why are you so concerned with comfort? Who drives a muscle car for comfort? Regardless, ride quality has far more to do with spring rates, shock valving and suspension travel. If we're gonna throw in makes and models that have nothing to do with anything, my '71 F100 4x4 is body on frame and so is my '24 PowerWagon. The Powerwagon rides nicer, even though both use coil springs up front. Weird huh? Oh, it's almost like the difference isn't the rubber bushings between the body and frame, it's ALMOST like the suspension matters.

- the rubber will reduce harshness & offer some protection from body cracking because of it's ability to absorb shock.

LOL! Or, I dunno, run better suspension. I mean, I tripled the wheel rate on my Duster and have run poly or even harder Delrin bushings since I've had it. Still waiting for the cracking, been over a decade and 40k street miles now. I even run 18" wheels and low profile tires.

That's what I was hoping for, but I guess maybe piecemeal is all I'm gonna find?

Call or email Peter Bergman.

He doesn't list a full rebuild kit on his website, but he does sell all of the parts and if you tell him what you want he will put together a kit for you.

This notion of a "kit" is pretty obsolete anyway, most of the "kits" available will not be parts all from a single manufacturer anyway.

Honestly I think Moog and Proforged are the only two around that make most of the different components you'd need in a kit, and for Proforged that's year dependent still. Some makes/models you could do it, others not so much. And everything Moog makes other than the K7103's is pretty much garbage. And has been for over a decade now.

 

[RustyRatRod]

That's what I was hoping for, but I guess maybe piecemeal is all I'm gonna find?

Pick your own stuff. That way you can pick actual good parts, instead of letting a company whose only intention is to make the most profit choose for you. You'll end up with crap if you do that. The cost is not that much more.

 

[junkyardhero]

Why are you so concerned with comfort? Who drives a muscle car for comfort? Regardless, ride quality has far more to do with spring rates, shock valving and suspension travel. If we're gonna throw in makes and models that have nothing to do with anything, my '71 F100 4x4 is body on frame and so is my '24 PowerWagon. The Powerwagon rides nicer, even though both use coil springs up front. Weird huh? Oh, it's almost like the difference isn't the rubber bushings between the body and frame, it's ALMOST like the suspension matters.



LOL! Or, I dunno, run better suspension. I mean, I tripled the wheel rate on my Duster and have run poly or even harder Delrin bushings since I've had it. Still waiting for the cracking, been over a decade and 40k street miles now. I even run 18" wheels and low profile tires.

hey, remember when bewy said that cars rode rough because large diameter short sidewall tires couldn't hold enough air to cushion the ride? and then back pedaled it and said it way because of the weight of the air in the tires?

pepperidge farms remembers.

17" Magnum 500's

I feel your pain. I'm not too worried about the Valiant beyond looks. I have SBP Centerlines with drag radials out back and pizza cutters on the front for track use, but it'll never see corners with any enthusiasm. My Challenger was a different story. I wanted more of a corner-burner and...

www.forabodiesonly.com

anybody that takes suspension advice from that dude should have their head examined.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Proforged ball joints and tie rods have metal cups. Moog has been absolute garbage for over 10 years now, no mechanic worth his salt would still recommend them for most parts and using oxidized vintage rubber isn't a real solution for anyone that actually drives their car. That's show pony stuff. There's multiple threads here showing Moog parts that just don't fit and are completely out of spec. The only part they make that has remained decent is the K7103 offset UCA bushings, although I'm sure that's bound to change at some point as well.



Never out handle a car with a complete conversion to coil overs! LOL!!! This shows how little you know about suspension in one sentence.

Moparty has been won several times now by Ken Chenoweth, and his Challenger is still running torsion bars. There's a Super Bee with a QA1 coil over set up, but I believe runner up is the best it's done so far. So yeah, there's multiple races and competitions where torsion bar Mopars beat converted Mopars. There was a member with a fully RMS suspended Duster that got absolutely flogged in an autoX by the Hotchkis Taxi. A 4 door B body with torsion bars. There was a whole magazine article on that. So never? Yeah that's 100% false and has been proven multiple times.

The fastest Mopars in AutoX and road racing are still running torsion bars.



Huh? The '70's truck steering boxes are just plain old worm and ball design, the only difference between them and the car boxes is the size of the sector shafts and the bearings used in the cases.

Not sure what the point was for any of that, since you're not gonna put a truck box in a car anyway. You can beef up a car steering box with bearings if you like, but a Borgeson conversion or a Flaming River manual steering box are probably better options.


This is false logic. The factory engineers were very smart people, but that doesn't mean everything they did was "the best". The engineers have never had free rein in a major production vehicle. You have production tolerances and the assembly line to consider, and COST, which dictates pretty much everything for a production car.

The factory used rubber bushings (and still do!) because they're
1- cheap
2- easy to install on the assembly line on a platform that has large assembly tolerances
3- are maintenance free (until they wear out anyway)

Poly and Delrin outperform rubber bushings, and last longer, but they also require a more precise installation. The tolerances have to be tighter and sometimes that requires modifications or different parts during installation to make sure that everything fits and works appropriately. But on the assembly line 50+ years ago none of that was gonna happen.



Again, rubber is used because it's cheap and doesn't require maintenance. The factory can install it and forget it. If poly were cheaper, easy to install and maintenance free they'd use that and tweak the suspension settings.



Why are you so concerned with comfort? Who drives a muscle car for comfort? Regardless, ride quality has far more to do with spring rates, shock valving and suspension travel. If we're gonna throw in makes and models that have nothing to do with anything, my '71 F100 4x4 is body on frame and so is my '24 PowerWagon. The Powerwagon rides nicer, even though both use coil springs up front. Weird huh? Oh, it's almost like the difference isn't the rubber bushings between the body and frame, it's ALMOST like the suspension matters.



LOL! Or, I dunno, run better suspension. I mean, I tripled the wheel rate on my Duster and have run poly or even harder Delrin bushings since I've had it. Still waiting for the cracking, been over a decade and 40k street miles now. I even run 18" wheels and low profile tires.



Call or email Peter Bergman.

He doesn't list a full rebuild kit on his website, but he does sell all of the parts and if you tell him what you want he will put together a kit for you.

This notion of a "kit" is pretty obsolete anyway, most of the "kits" available will not be parts all from a single manufacturer anyway.

Honestly I think Moog and Proforged are the only two around that make most of the different components you'd need in a kit, and for Proforged that's year dependent still. Some makes/models you could do it, others not so much. And everything Moog makes other than the K7103's is pretty much garbage. And has been for over a decade now.

 

[fishmens67]

I also only use OEM rubber style bushings over a poly style.

Me too, the suspension reacts quicker with rubber. imo
AS far as I'm concerned Mopars were ment to go fast in a straight line and not built to be canyon carvers. Big block A-bodies do much better in a straight line.

 

[RustyRatRod]

View attachment 1716440874

Check yer PMs goat man.

 

[Captainkirk]

The country roads around here are fairly straight and flat, perfect for a full-throttle run through the gears. There are no canyons to carve. All I'm looking for is good, tight suspension equal to, or better than, factory suspension at the time.
And please, no pissing matches. I started this thread looking for answers and suggestions, not a street fight.

 

[junkyardhero]

The country roads around here are fairly straight and flat, perfect for a full-throttle run through the gears. There are no canyons to carve. All I'm looking for is good, tight suspension equal to, or better than, factory suspension at the time.
And please, no pissing matches. I started this thread looking for answers and suggestions, not a street fight.

you know how it is, everybody wants to be right. everybody wants to be heralded for how they have been doing it since jesus was a private and why would you change anything or any brand.

but i digress...

you sound like you know what you want and where your expectations are. here's how i'd roll: i'd hit up summit and grab proforged upper and lower ball joints (2nd choice would be mevotech supreme which are very good as well). proforged rubber lower control arm bushings. moog K7103 upper control arm bushings (these are the offset ones). moog 7040 strut rod bushings. on lower & upper bump stops, moog and mevotech are about equal in quality and price. on the pitman i'd buy the dorman premium unit or the delco gold if it's in stock would be my first choice. on the idler arm proforged would be my first choice followed by delco gold or mevotech supreme (timeframe permitting). on the tie rods, proforged would be the choice. after that mevotech supreme, delco gold or dorman premium.

if you have a sway bar, update the bar bushings and end links to poly.

snap it together, throw a good alignment on it and enjoy miles of smiles.

 

[matthon]

I rebuilt my '67 sbp KH disc/sway bar suspension with stock parts, KYB shocks, ok.
Added Espo 1" over rear springs too.

Years later did it over with QA1/Proforged parts, tracked/handled better than stock with the factory sway bar.

Added new 16.1 box, more better.
Replaced the steering column with a rebuilt 68 column. 67 columns are garbage with the garbage lower plastic garbage bearing.
Should've done this years ago for safety.

Replaced the front sway bar with a Hotchkis, within a few weeks added one in the rear. Much better handling, adding the rear bar really made an impact.

Just this past month, replaced the factory bb torsion bars with 1.03s.
A gigantic difference in front end stability. I was dumb to think original bb bars would be sufficient. Turn the car and it stays level.

Added Bilstien shocks in the front, better, not by much. I did not experience the bounce some people have noted with the 1.03s.

Added Bilstien shocks to the rear, huge improvement in rear stability, car takes bumps so much better.

Throughout each change, major or minor, I have driven it regularly, straightened them curves and flattened them hills.

It's fantastic now, it's a bb, manual, it's got 215/65/15s front, 275/60/15s on the rear, and it handles.

It was not cheap, for me anyway, and I should have made better decisions along the way.

If I had to do it over, I would skip the stock rebuild.

 

[72bluNblu]

Me too, the suspension reacts quicker with rubber. imo

Exactly the opposite. With Poly or Delrin you're not working against the internal resistance from the rubber. With the stock bushings, every time the suspension moves you have to twist the rubber first. If you install poly or delrin bushings and cycle the suspension by hand, you immediately discover that the suspension moves more freely and has much less resistance to movement.

AS far as I'm concerned Mopars were ment to go fast in a straight line and not built to be canyon carvers. Big block A-bodies do much better in a straight line.

Yeah, those 60's Nascars and 70's T/A, AAR and Kit cars didn't win anything. Oh, wait...

The country roads around here are fairly straight and flat, perfect for a full-throttle run through the gears. There are no canyons to carve. All I'm looking for is good, tight suspension equal to, or better than, factory suspension at the time.
And please, no pissing matches. I started this thread looking for answers and suggestions, not a street fight.

Well I apologize for the pissing match not helping your cause. Unfortunately, if you'd look around you'd see that every time a suspension thread comes up there's a few old timers that are hell bent on forcing everyone to keep the stock bushings because they simply don't understand- 1- what's possible with these cars and the torsion bar suspension and 2- how to properly install & maintain poly bushings.

Now, that being said, with your planned use for the car I don't think you need to go through the extra steps and add the extra parts you'd want to do all that. A fairly stock upgrade with good components will suit your needs just fine. @junkyardhero laid out a very good plan in post #33

I rebuilt my '67 sbp KH disc/sway bar suspension with stock parts, KYB shocks, ok.
Added Espo 1" over rear springs too.

Years later did it over with QA1/Proforged parts, tracked/handled better than stock with the factory sway bar.

Added new 16.1 box, more better.
Replaced the steering column with a rebuilt 68 column. 67 columns are garbage with the garbage lower plastic garbage bearing.
Should've done this years ago for safety.

Replaced the front sway bar with a Hotchkis, within a few weeks added one in the rear. Much better handling, adding the rear bar really made an impact.

Just this past month, replaced the factory bb torsion bars with 1.03s.
A gigantic difference in front end stability. I was dumb to think original bb bars would be sufficient. Turn the car and it stays level.

Added Bilstien shocks in the front, better, not by much. I did not experience the bounce some people have noted with the 1.03s.

Added Bilstien shocks to the rear, huge improvement in rear stability, car takes bumps so much better.

Throughout each change, major or minor, I have driven it regularly, straightened them curves and flattened them hills.

It's fantastic now, it's a bb, manual, it's got 215/65/15s front, 275/60/15s on the rear, and it handles.

It was not cheap, for me anyway, and I should have made better decisions along the way.

If I had to do it over, I would skip the stock rebuild.

Sounds like you did a great job with your components and got a great result. You wouldn't have done any better shelling out for a coil over conversion, especially if you don't take the time to tune it. Your current set up has better suspension geometry than an out of the box conversion does, you'd still need to add taller ball joints and mess around with spring rates and shock valving if you want to put one over on your current set up.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Well since the machine shop is moved I went to the shop today. I have a shell on a rotisserie upside down. I installed a K-member, a lower control arm with a lubed up poly/delrin bushing and a factory strut rod with a torsion bar. With the strut rod installed and tightened. Then When tightening the pin to the k-member it pulls the pin out almost 3/4 inches where the OEM bushing holds it in place and pulls the arm front to its proper designed location ,

Using a bar you can move the control arm front to back on the bushing that same distance. Now I don't know where you all are saying that is OK , But when the rubber OEM lowers are ripped from age or improper tightening with the lower hanging. That is when the OEM can do the same thing and affect handling.



Again when a OEM lower bushing is ripped that is when the arm can float front to back easily on the bushing. It rarely can move side to side . A lubed up pin can slide in and out with no resistance.

You all can believe what you want. The arm at the ball joint can move front and back pivoting off the strut rod from tire scruff on unequal surfaces. Put you car in reverse and hold the brake on and hit the throttle . The tire will move forward from the bushing pulling off the pin. Put it in a forward gear and it will seat where it should be while on the brake. That is common sense geometry. What else holds the lubed up bushing from going in and out. Surely not the Torsion bar with 3/4 inch of distance to the clip.

You are all just not thinking it through. If you all lived in the dessert I could sell you sand.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

There is one particular boastful allways right old man in this thread who you would be well advised to ignore.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Well since the machine shop is moved I went to the shop today. I have a shell on a rotisserie upside down. I installed a K-member, a lower control arm with a lubed up poly/delrin bushing and a factory strut rod with a torsion bar. With the strut rod installed and tightened. Then When tightening the pin to the k-member it pulls the pin out almost 3/4 inches where the OEM bushing holds it in place and pulls the arm front to its proper designed location ,

Using a bar you can move the control arm front to back on the bushing that same distance. Now I don't know where you all are saying that is OK , But when the rubber OEM lowers are ripped from age or improper tightening with the lower hanging. That is when the OEM can do the same thing and affect handling.



Again when a OEM lower bushing is ripped that is when the arm can float front to back easily on the bushing. It rarely can move side to side . A lubed up pin can slide in and out with no resistance.

You all can believe what you want. The arm at the ball joint can move front and back pivoting off the strut rod from tire scruff on unequal surfaces. Put you car in reverse and hold the brake on and hit the throttle . The tire will move forward from the bushing pulling off the pin. Put it in a forward gear and it will seat where it should be while on the brake. That is common sense geometry. What else holds the lubed up bushing from going in and out. Surely not the Torsion bar with 3/4 inch of distance to the clip.

You are all just not thinking it through. If you all lived in the dessert I could sell you sand.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Well since the machine shop is moved I went to the shop today. I have a shell on a rotisserie upside down. I installed a K-member, a lower control arm with a lubed up poly/delrin bushing and a factory strut rod with a torsion bar. With the strut rod installed and tightened. Then When tightening the pin to the k-member it pulls the pin out almost 3/4 inches where the OEM bushing holds it in place and pulls the arm front to its proper designed location ,

Using a bar you can move the control arm front to back on the bushing that same distance. Now I don't know where you all are saying that is OK , But when the rubber OEM lowers are ripped from age or improper tightening with the lower hanging. That is when the OEM can do the same thing and affect handling.



Again when a OEM lower bushing is ripped that is when the arm can float front to back easily on the bushing. It rarely can move side to side . A lubed up pin can slide in and out with no resistance.

You all can believe what you want. The arm at the ball joint can move front and back pivoting off the strut rod from tire scruff on unequal surfaces. Put you car in reverse and hold the brake on and hit the throttle . The tire will move forward from the bushing pulling off the pin. Put it in a forward gear and it will seat where it should be while on the brake. That is common sense geometry. What else holds the lubed up bushing from going in and out. Surely not the Torsion bar with 3/4 inch of distance to the clip.

You are all just not thinking it through. If you all lived in the dessert I could sell you sand.

No one is buying **** from you. If you can’t grasp why and HOW poly bushings AND ADJUSTABLE STRUTS RODS are better and safer that’s just you being obstinate.

You can NOT use poly bushings and OE strut rods. It seems that’s what you advocate for, but I just don’t think you are that fucked up.

Poly bushings and adjustable strut rods. There is no other option IF you want your **** to drive correctly.

OP, do the poly bushings and adjustable strut rods. You’ll be glad you did.

Never NO CIRCUMSTANCES do you use poly bushings and IE strut rods. That will get you hurt or killed.

 

[junkyardhero]

No one is buying **** from you. If you can’t grasp why and HOW poly bushings AND ADJUSTABLE STRUTS RODS are better and safer that’s just you being obstinate.

You can NOT use poly bushings and OE strut rods. It seems that’s what you advocate for, but I just don’t think you are that fucked up.

Poly bushings and adjustable strut rods. There is no other option IF you want your **** to drive correctly.

OP, do the poly bushings and adjustable strut rods. You’ll be glad you did.

Never NO CIRCUMSTANCES do you use poly bushings and IE strut rods. That will get you hurt or killed.

pfft! the way i read it is that everybody only drives these cars to go get ice cream and "at the strip" "once or twice a year".

14" 205 BFG's ain't gonna stress none of that out anyway.

OE strut rods will be fine. fffffiiiiinnnneeee.

 

[72bluNblu]

Well since the machine shop is moved I went to the shop today. I have a shell on a rotisserie upside down. I installed a K-member, a lower control arm with a lubed up poly/delrin bushing and a factory strut rod with a torsion bar. With the strut rod installed and tightened. Then When tightening the pin to the k-member it pulls the pin out almost 3/4 inches where the OEM bushing holds it in place and pulls the arm front to its proper designed location ,

First, let me say I don't believe for a single second you actually did any of that, because this is the same old BS you've been selling for years. Now, if I play along and pretend you actually did do that, well, that's called improper installation.

With poly LCA bushings, the bushing shoulders have to be tight against the LCA pin and the LCA, like shown below. If there's a gap, you did it wrong. That may require a different length strut rod than the factory length, which is why I recommend adjustable strut rods with these.

Using a bar you can move the control arm front to back on the bushing that same distance. Now I don't know where you all are saying that is OK ,

See, here's the thing.

If the poly bushing is installed properly like shown above, the only way you could get the LCA to move backward is if you're compressing the strut rod bushing by more than the amount you're moving the LCA. Since I know you absolutely did not compress the strut rod bushing 3/4", I know you couldn't have moved the LCA back on the pin that far. So, back to what I said originally- you absolutely did not do what you said you did.

But when the rubber OEM lowers are ripped from age or improper tightening with the lower hanging. That is when the OEM can do the same thing and affect handling.

The rubber bushings function in a completely different way than the poly or delrin bushings do. I've been trying to explain that to you for over a decade now, you still don't get it. Rubber, polyurethane, and Delrin have completely different properties, they do not work the same way. A failed rubber bushing is not the same as a properly installed poly bushing in anyway way, shape, or form.

Again when a OEM lower bushing is ripped that is when the arm can float front to back easily on the bushing. It rarely can move side to side . A lubed up pin can slide in and out with no resistance.

See, when you say things like that I know you've never installed a poly LCA bushing properly and really don't understand how any of these bushings are supposed to work. Because when the suspension is assembled and the poly bushing is installed properly, you cannot slide the LCA back and forth on the LCA pin without resistance. At the absolute MOST, if you have retained stock rubber strut rod bushings (which I do not), you could only force the LCA back as much at you could compress the strut rod bushing. Which would also be the same amount the LCA could move with the OE rubber bushings, BTW.

You all can believe what you want. The arm at the ball joint can move front and back pivoting off the strut rod from tire scruff on unequal surfaces. Put you car in reverse and hold the brake on and hit the throttle . The tire will move forward from the bushing pulling off the pin. Put it in a forward gear and it will seat where it should be while on the brake. That is common sense geometry. What else holds the lubed up bushing from going in and out. Surely not the Torsion bar with 3/4 inch of distance to the clip.

I will believe in the facts.

And the fact is that the strut rod controls the forward/aft movement of the LCA. Period. Literally it's only job, that is why it exists in this suspension design (and many others!). The OE rubber LCA bushing does not keep the LCA from moving forward or backward. It never has, it never will, it's not how it works.

And, if you install a poly LCA bushing properly, with no gaps and the LCA pulled tightly against the bushing with the strut rod, it cannot move backward by even as much as you can compress the strut rod bushing. That is what the geometry says. Your "common sense geometry" is neither common sense, or geometry.

Yes, I get it, sometime over 30 YEARS AGO you improperly installed some poly bushings. And they failed, like pretty much ANY part when you install it improperly. And yeah, it's really easy to install a part improperly if you don't have a single clue how it works, which clearly you do not.

You are all just not thinking it through. If you all lived in the dessert I could sell you sand.

Thinking it through? I've put over 100k miles on cars set up the way you say doesn't work. I don't have to "think it through", I've DONE IT. The things you say will happen do not happen when you install poly bushings correctly.

What that should tell you is that you fundamentally misunderstand how these parts work. Because if you were right, if it actually worked like you think it does then my car would be undriveable. It's not, so, only one thing can be true- you're completely wrong about how those bushings work, AND how the suspension around them works.

Which is fine, you believe what you believe, it has no effect on the fact that Mopars that handle better than any car you've ever built run poly and delrin LCA bushings successfully. Your car shitting out its improperly installed poly bushings 30+ years ago has no bearing on that.

And hey, people can still run rubber bushings, I don't care. The OE bushings work just fine for lots of folks, hell, I literally just recommended them to the OP of this thread because they're a perfectly appropriate choice for him.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

First, let me say I don't believe for a single second you actually did any of that, because this is the same old BS you've been selling for years. Now, if I play along and pretend you actually did do that, well, that's called improper installation.

With poly LCA bushings, the bushing shoulders have to be tight against the LCA pin and the LCA, like shown below. If there's a gap, you did it wrong. That may require a different length strut rod than the factory length, which is why I recommend adjustable strut rods with these.

See, here's the thing.

If the poly bushing is installed properly like shown above, the only way you could get the LCA to move backward is if you're compressing the strut rod bushing by more than the amount you're moving the LCA. Since I know you absolutely did not compress the strut rod bushing 3/4", I know you couldn't have moved the LCA back on the pin that far. So, back to what I said originally- you absolutely did not do what you said you did.


The rubber bushings function in a completely different way than the poly or delrin bushings do. I've been trying to explain that to you for over a decade now, you still don't get it. Rubber, polyurethane, and Delrin have completely different properties, they do not work the same way. A failed rubber bushing is not the same as a properly installed poly bushing in anyway way, shape, or form.


See, when you say things like that I know you've never installed a poly LCA bushing properly and really don't understand how any of these bushings are supposed to work. Because when the suspension is assembled and the poly bushing is installed properly, you cannot slide the LCA back and forth on the LCA pin without resistance. At the absolute MOST, if you have retained stock rubber strut rod bushings (which I do not), you could only force the LCA back as much at you could compress the strut rod bushing. Which would also be the same amount the LCA could move with the OE rubber bushings, BTW.



I will believe in the facts.

And the fact is that the strut rod controls the forward/aft movement of the LCA. Period. Literally it's only job, that is why it exists in this suspension design (and many others!). The OE rubber LCA bushing does not keep the LCA from moving forward or backward. It never has, it never will, it's not how it works.

And, if you install a poly LCA bushing properly, with no gaps and the LCA pulled tightly against the bushing with the strut rod, it cannot move backward by even as much as you can compress the strut rod bushing. That is what the geometry says. Your "common sense geometry" is neither common sense, or geometry.

Yes, I get it, sometime over 30 YEARS AGO you improperly installed some poly bushings. And they failed, like pretty much ANY part when you install it improperly. And yeah, it's really easy to install a part improperly if you don't have a single clue how it works, which clearly you do not.



Thinking it through? I've put over 100k miles on cars set up the way you say doesn't work. I don't have to "think it through", I've DONE IT. The things you say will happen do not happen when you install poly bushings correctly.

What that should tell you is that you fundamentally misunderstand how these parts work. Because if you were right, if it actually worked like you think it does then my car would be undriveable. It's not, so, only one thing can be true- you're completely wrong about how those bushings work, AND how the suspension around them works.

Which is fine, you believe what you believe, it has no effect on the fact that Mopars that handle better than any car you've ever built run poly and delrin LCA bushings successfully. Your car shitting out its improperly installed poly bushings 30+ years ago has no bearing on that.

And hey, people can still run rubber bushings, I don't care. The OE bushings work just fine for lots of folks, hell, I literally just recommended them to the OP of this thread because they're a perfectly appropriate choice for him.

Well look at that welded up mess. Looks just like your miss matched wanna be Demon. Probably runs as good as it looks. If you can't afford paint you probably can't afford a press to install OEM bushings. . You just lube up and let it slide in.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

First, let me say I don't believe for a single second you actually did any of that, because this is the same old BS you've been selling for years. Now, if I play along and pretend you actually did do that, well, that's called improper installation.

With poly LCA bushings, the bushing shoulders have to be tight against the LCA pin and the LCA, like shown below. If there's a gap, you did it wrong. That may require a different length strut rod than the factory length, which is why I recommend adjustable strut rods with these.

See, here's the thing.

If the poly bushing is installed properly like shown above, the only way you could get the LCA to move backward is if you're compressing the strut rod bushing by more than the amount you're moving the LCA. Since I know you absolutely did not compress the strut rod bushing 3/4", I know you couldn't have moved the LCA back on the pin that far. So, back to what I said originally- you absolutely did not do what you said you did.


The rubber bushings function in a completely different way than the poly or delrin bushings do. I've been trying to explain that to you for over a decade now, you still don't get it. Rubber, polyurethane, and Delrin have completely different properties, they do not work the same way. A failed rubber bushing is not the same as a properly installed poly bushing in anyway way, shape, or form.


See, when you say things like that I know you've never installed a poly LCA bushing properly and really don't understand how any of these bushings are supposed to work. Because when the suspension is assembled and the poly bushing is installed properly, you cannot slide the LCA back and forth on the LCA pin without resistance. At the absolute MOST, if you have retained stock rubber strut rod bushings (which I do not), you could only force the LCA back as much at you could compress the strut rod bushing. Which would also be the same amount the LCA could move with the OE rubber bushings, BTW.



I will believe in the facts.

And the fact is that the strut rod controls the forward/aft movement of the LCA. Period. Literally it's only job, that is why it exists in this suspension design (and many others!). The OE rubber LCA bushing does not keep the LCA from moving forward or backward. It never has, it never will, it's not how it works.

And, if you install a poly LCA bushing properly, with no gaps and the LCA pulled tightly against the bushing with the strut rod, it cannot move backward by even as much as you can compress the strut rod bushing. That is what the geometry says. Your "common sense geometry" is neither common sense, or geometry.

Yes, I get it, sometime over 30 YEARS AGO you improperly installed some poly bushings. And they failed, like pretty much ANY part when you install it improperly. And yeah, it's really easy to install a part improperly if you don't have a single clue how it works, which clearly you do not.



Thinking it through? I've put over 100k miles on cars set up the way you say doesn't work. I don't have to "think it through", I've DONE IT. The things you say will happen do not happen when you install poly bushings correctly.

What that should tell you is that you fundamentally misunderstand how these parts work. Because if you were right, if it actually worked like you think it does then my car would be undriveable. It's not, so, only one thing can be true- you're completely wrong about how those bushings work, AND how the suspension around them works.

Which is fine, you believe what you believe, it has no effect on the fact that Mopars that handle better than any car you've ever built run poly and delrin LCA bushings successfully. Your car shitting out its improperly installed poly bushings 30+ years ago has no bearing on that.

And hey, people can still run rubber bushings, I don't care. The OE bushings work just fine for lots of folks, hell, I literally just recommended them to the OP of this thread because they're a perfectly appropriate choice for him.

Your wasting your breath. Your arguing with someone with the mentality of a 10 year old child.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Here are some pictures.

With everything tight. Strut rod with proper bushings, torsion bar in place and the pin tight. You can move the control arm front and back just like it does on the car on the ground like I said. And on the car with the later strut rods which have more movement it even moves more.

With adjustable struts with a swivel built in the bar it moves easier. I have many K-members, Control arms all the different strut bushings and later strut rods .

Your dreams are not reality. You need to smoke more weed from the weed store you work at.

This is just using a large flat head screw drive to pry back. You would not believe how far they move going forward and back with the brake applied on the ground. Some of you should take a look.If you have them installed. You can see them from the top from under the hood . We looked at our car at the track to see why the tire was moving when launching the car.

When I show this to people that have them installed when they come here on there car they have us install the OEM rubber and tighten them at ride height. If you tighten them while the car is in the air they rip on the first ride. Then they do exactly what these poly / delrins do. Move in and out but not as easy.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Proforged ball joints and tie rods have metal cups. Moog has been absolute garbage for over 10 years now, no mechanic worth his salt would still recommend them for most parts and using oxidized vintage rubber isn't a real solution for anyone that actually drives their car. That's show pony stuff. There's multiple threads here showing Moog parts that just don't fit and are completely out of spec. The only part they make that has remained decent is the K7103 offset UCA bushings, although I'm sure that's bound to change at some point as well.



Never out handle a car with a complete conversion to coil overs! LOL!!! This shows how little you know about suspension in one sentence.

Moparty has been won several times now by Ken Chenoweth, and his Challenger is still running torsion bars. There's a Super Bee with a QA1 coil over set up, but I believe runner up is the best it's done so far. So yeah, there's multiple races and competitions where torsion bar Mopars beat converted Mopars. There was a member with a fully RMS suspended Duster that got absolutely flogged in an autoX by the Hotchkis Taxi. A 4 door B body with torsion bars. There was a whole magazine article on that. So never? Yeah that's 100% false and has been proven multiple times.

The fastest Mopars in AutoX and road racing are still running torsion bars.



Huh? The '70's truck steering boxes are just plain old worm and ball design, the only difference between them and the car boxes is the size of the sector shafts and the bearings used in the cases.

Not sure what the point was for any of that, since you're not gonna put a truck box in a car anyway. You can beef up a car steering box with bearings if you like, but a Borgeson conversion or a Flaming River manual steering box are probably better options.


This is false logic. The factory engineers were very smart people, but that doesn't mean everything they did was "the best". The engineers have never had free rein in a major production vehicle. You have production tolerances and the assembly line to consider, and COST, which dictates pretty much everything for a production car.

The factory used rubber bushings (and still do!) because they're
1- cheap
2- easy to install on the assembly line on a platform that has large assembly tolerances
3- are maintenance free (until they wear out anyway)

Poly and Delrin outperform rubber bushings, and last longer, but they also require a more precise installation. The tolerances have to be tighter and sometimes that requires modifications or different parts during installation to make sure that everything fits and works appropriately. But on the assembly line 50+ years ago none of that was gonna happen.



Again, rubber is used because it's cheap and doesn't require maintenance. The factory can install it and forget it. If poly were cheaper, easy to install and maintenance free they'd use that and tweak the suspension settings.



Why are you so concerned with comfort? Who drives a muscle car for comfort? Regardless, ride quality has far more to do with spring rates, shock valving and suspension travel. If we're gonna throw in makes and models that have nothing to do with anything, my '71 F100 4x4 is body on frame and so is my '24 PowerWagon. The Powerwagon rides nicer, even though both use coil springs up front. Weird huh? Oh, it's almost like the difference isn't the rubber bushings between the body and frame, it's ALMOST like the suspension matters.



LOL! Or, I dunno, run better suspension. I mean, I tripled the wheel rate on my Duster and have run poly or even harder Delrin bushings since I've had it. Still waiting for the cracking, been over a decade and 40k street miles now. I even run 18" wheels and low profile tires.



Call or email Peter Bergman.

He doesn't list a full rebuild kit on his website, but he does sell all of the parts and if you tell him what you want he will put together a kit for you.

This notion of a "kit" is pretty obsolete anyway, most of the "kits" available will not be parts all from a single manufacturer anyway.

Honestly I think Moog and Proforged are the only two around that make most of the different components you'd need in a kit, and for Proforged that's year dependent still. Some makes/models you could do it, others not so much. And everything Moog makes other than the K7103's is pretty much garbage. And has been for over a decade now.

There is the pictures as soon as Someone comes here I'll get a video.

Smoke a joint and think of your next quote. From what I see you should sell your car and get a fire truck. Many dumb people in California are throwing lit roaches in the dry brush .

 

[72bluNblu]

Finally! Pictures that clearly show you're installing these bushings wrong! Thank you so much!

Well look at that welded up mess. Looks just like your miss matched wanna be Demon. Probably runs as good as it looks. If you can't afford paint you probably can't afford a press to install OEM bushings.

LOL, please. I have a 20 ton press and have installed several set of OE rubber LCA bushings with it. I don't use OE LCA bushings because they're sloppy, and the BergmanAutocraft Delrin bushings I do use are far superior in quality. I had to use that press to remove the old outer shells to install the Delrin bushings to begin with.

I haven't painted my car because I drive it at least every week and I don't want to take it off the road for that long for no reason, and it runs better than your Demon did when you wrapped it around that telephone pole.

. You just lube up and let it slide in.

See, that right there. After all these years, you're still 100% wrong about how to install poly bushings. That's why yours failed, improper installation.

With everything tight. Strut rod with proper bushings, torsion bar in place and the pin tight. You can move the control arm front and back just like it does on the car on the ground like I said. And on the car with the later strut rods which have more movement it even moves more.

With adjustable struts with a swivel built in the bar it moves easier. I have many K-members, Control arms all the different strut bushings and later strut rods .

Perfect. Now if you had a picture of the torsion bar in the socket and the crossmember we could really break down why these pictures show nothing relevant.

First, with everything "tight"

The gap here shows that the strut rod is too long. The shoulder of the poly bushing is not against the shoulder of the pin, which is absolutely necessary for proper installation. This picture shows the installation is wrong from the jump. This picture also doesn't tell the whole story, because there should be slight forward tension on the LCA from the strut rod. So in addition to the gap, there's no forward tension.

Now, this next one shows why this isn't a representative test. The torsion bar adjusting lever is clearly out of position, so, the torsion bar is not loaded. Now I don't know about you, but I know that I've tried moving a torsion bar when it still has a tiny bit of load on it, and it doesn't work. So the torsion bar is sliding backward with the LCA, which is doesn't do when the torsion bar is loaded. Period. Anyone that's ever struggled to remove a torsion bar knows this. And of course the original gap makes the distance the LCA moved on the pin look even larger, ~1/3 of the distance shown in the picture was there before any prying happened.

This is just using a large flat head screw drive to pry back. You would not believe how far they move going forward and back with the brake applied on the ground. Some of you should take a look.If you have them installed. You can see them from the top from under the hood .

Again, this is evidence that the installation is both wrong and incomplete.

If the torsion bars were loaded, the torsion bar would not move backward and the LCA socket would not slide on the torsion bar. And of course the bushing was not tight against the shoulder of the LCA pin to begin with. And then there's this- holy cow that strut rod bushing is completely flat.

I dunno about you, but that amount of compression from the strut rod bushings is not normal. So either - you're putting more load on that thing than you claim, or that bushing is hot garbage.

We looked at our car at the track to see why the tire was moving when launching the car.

Right, 30+ years ago.

When I show this to people that have them installed when they come here on there car they have us install the OEM rubber and tighten them at ride height. If you tighten them while the car is in the air they rip on the first ride. Then they do exactly what these poly / delrins do. Move in and out but not as easy.

Yes, you've described using this gimmick of a partially installed poly bushing to scam customers into having you install OE bushings before. As you proved with your pictures, the "test" you're doing is in fact a gimmick, because it is not representative of what happens on the car with the suspension fully installed and the Poly bushing properly installed.

Also, a failed rubber bushing does not act the same as a poly bushing. The rubber has to be compressed between the shells, and then it flexes when the LCA twists it. If it has torn it is no longer compressed, and allows the LCA to wobble around, and that radial movement is the problem. The rubber is also soft, and will rapidly degrade if the bushing is rotated on the pivot. Poly and delrin are much harder materials, with proper lubrication they withstand the rotation of the bushings on the pivots. The material and design of the bushing is entirely different and not comparable.

Your dreams are not reality. You need to smoke more weed from the weed store you work at.

There is the pictures as soon as Someone comes here I'll get a video.

Smoke a joint and think of your next quote. From what I see you should sell your car and get a fire truck. Many dumb people in California are throwing lit roaches in the dry brush .

Been waiting on that video for like a decade now! Bring it on. I would love to see all the ways you're screwing this up.

And again, and again, and again- I am a professional firefighter. I have been for well over 20 years now. Trying to smear my reputation is all you've got at this point, and it's pretty pathetic man.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

I was wondering if anyone would mention that with the torsion bar installed and LOADED, it would be impossible to move that lower control arm off the pivot. This guy only posts for 3 reasons I can determine. #1 get attention, #2 boast, #3 try to turn every post into a quasi-sale for some junk he hordes

 

[abodyjoe]

Me too, the suspension reacts quicker with rubber. imo

i can't t see rubber reacting faster then a firmer material like poly or delrin bushing. just doesn't make sense. rubber has to (does) squish some before it reacts, the firmer the material the less it has to squish before it reacts. i run the delrin lower control arm bushings and will not use anything else in the future.

 

[72bluNblu]

Your wasting your breath. Your arguing with someone with the mentality of a 10 year old child.

Yeah I know. I don't do it to try to convince OMM though, I know that's not possible. He's fundamentally misunderstood how the torsion bar suspension works for 50 years now, he's not gonna finally realize he's wrong. He's definitely not going to admit it if he does finally figure it out. But I don't think he realizes that the things he's already said and tried to show prove that he doesn't understand what he's talking about.

But that's not why I keep commenting. I want other people that might be considering suspension rebuilds to understand that OMM is talking out of his ***, and that there are important steps to take to properly install poly or delrin bushings. You can't just "lube them up and slap them in", because the factory parts do not always meet the necessary tolerances.

I know that you know this, but for the sake of explanation to install poly or delrin bushings you have to check the fit, you have to make sure you have the proper gaps and tension, and the tolerances have to be right. That frequently requires modifications or aftermarket replacements for parts beyond just the lower control arm bushings.

The factory used giant rubber bushings to make up for loose suspension tolerances on the assembly line. If you replace the giant rubber bushings with poly or delrin they don't have the ability to take up those gaps and loose tolerances, so you have to make sure all of those tolerances and fits are correct. And they usually aren't!

I was wondering if anyone would mention that with the torsion bar installed and LOADED, it would be impossible to move that lower control arm off the pivot. This guy only posts for 3 reasons I can determine. #1 get attention, #2 boast, #3 try to turn every post into a quasi-sale for some junk he hordes

Yeah he's bragged about his gimmick with customers in his shop with poly bushings before. It's a scam. Anyone that's ever tried to slide an LCA backward with a loaded torsion bar behind it would know the torsion bar isn't gonna move, and the LCA will not slide on the torsion bar socket. Between a loaded torsion bar and a proper length strut rod the LCA can't move like OMM shows in his pictures. But he's got a strut rod that's too long and no load on the torsion bars.

i can't t see rubber reacting faster then a firmer material like poly or delrin bushing. just doesn't make sense. rubber has to (does) squish some before it reacts, the firmer the material the less it has to squish before it reacts. i run the delrin lower control arm bushings and will not use anything else in the future.

Exactly.

 

[fritztod]

I was at Steve's when he was prying the control arm front and back off the pin with the torsion bar installed. He couldn't put a load on the bars when the body was upside down in the air. But it could do this on the ground using the power of the car The pin was tight against before he started to pry it front to back. The control arm was pivoting off the strut rod that was in place and tight. He also used the same tap to press my old sleeve out when replacing my original bushings. I was told you leave the original sleeve in the control arm for the slip in style bushings and on the pin that goes in. Telling him he installed them wrong would be incorrect. They just slip into the original bushing sleeve with force. Seems like your telling him he installed them wrong just trying to cause trouble. Explain to me how you can install them wrong? Or due you glue them in place. I thought you should use some type of grease. And how can loading weight on the control arm stop that movement if the car is going up and down? What I have seen at his shop is cars that came here that already had them put in with this movement. Are you the only one that puts them in the right way. Please explain your method in detail so we understand what he did wrong . Did he put them in backwards?