Captainkirk
Old School Mopar Warrior
@Jim Lusk Thank you for those excellent videos! Very much appreciated, and I notice your Harbor Freight press seems to work just fine!
Front Suspension refurb
- Thread starter Captainkirk
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Yeah, absolutely nothing is needed behind the torsion bar other than the safety clip.
This is ridiculous for two reasons. One, try moving a loaded torsion bar back and forth. And two, that’s what the strut rod is for, to control the motion of the LCA.
Basic understanding of suspension dynamics should tell you trying to block the torsion bars in is useless, and honestly everyone that’s ever removed or installed torsion bars should know first hand why.
My K-frame is welded up because it was cracked before I got it. The factory welds were so piss-poor that even a /6, auto on the column with a 7.25” rear axle and under 90k original miles had broken almost all the welds on the steering box mount.
The K frame was fully seam welded, all the factory welds were re-welded, and stiffening plates and reinforcements were added to all the areas that carry suspension loads. The re-welded factory welds are the ugly looking ones, because of the junk in the metal in the original factory welds. It might not be pretty, but it’s solid and won’t flex as much as the factory piece.
I re-weld all of my factory K’s, there is no advantage to having flex in the K frame.
LOL! Re-writing history. Mopars did great in the TA and AAR series. Not to mention NASCAR and the kit cars. These cars, with proper modifications, handled great in many factory backed racing campaigns.
And yeah, back to the oblivious plugging of coil over conversions. None have better geometry out of the box. HDK’s are closest, but even those need extended ball joints just to get back on par with the factory geometry. There’s a reason torsion bar cars win many of the AutoX competitions. And yeah, most of those cars run poly or Delrin LCA bushings.
Your gimmick with the screw driver doesn’t show what happens on a fully assembled suspension that’s been properly adjusted. Again, someone that understands even basics about suspension geometry would that amount and kind of movement under load would be catastrophic.
This was for ride comfort, not because of chassis strength. Stupid 70’s “cloud like” ride quality BS. Not a performance deal in the least.
More BS. I told you how to install them correctly, step by step and with pictures. And you know you didn’t do any of those things when you slapped yours in. You don’t even understand what I’m talking about. A mechanic, and certainly a machinist, should understand fit classes and tolerances.
Thinking that you need to shim the torsion bars just proves you don’t understand even the very basics of how the suspension on these cars works. Not only is it unnecessary, it’s useless.
Well just more bullshit quotes. The torsion bar does not stay loaded when driving the car . And I proved that the strut rod does not hold the inside of the LCA buy having the tightest strut and TB in place and moving the arm on and off the pin. And that is with no swivel on an adjustable strut.
If you are so right about the strut on the outside holding the inside of the control arm. Then what you are saying is is we could all just take the torsion bars off and run coil overs and the lower control arm would just stay on that grease up pin. I met some pretty stupid people in my time. But you my friend take the cake.
If you welded up your k-member due to it being cracked before you installed it where are the welds on the rusted up piece of crap in the prior pictures. Even the dumbest person would have painted the fresh welds before reinstalling it. You just lie through your teeth to never admit your bullshit is wrong.
This is proof the strut rod doesn't hold anything. I know the first picture is not tight against. but these are while it twas already moved front to back completely assembled. The unloaded bar means nothing because the stiffer the bar the quicker it is in the neutral position on acceleration. Only weak /6 bars stay loaded through their travel. Why most use them for drag cars for lift to transfer weight. You are clueless. Your work is shoddy. and your car is a piece of crap you don't take care of.
Bushing on left a two piece style was used for the pictures. Can't get stiffer then those and they didn't hold **** to stop this movement. With the t-bar out I can slide it off the end of the pin. The strut rod does not hold nothing at the control bushing. and if you use and adjustable strut with a swivels its worse.
If you are so right about the strut on the outside holding the inside of the control arm. Then what you are saying is is we could all just take the torsion bars off and run coil overs and the lower control arm would just stay on that grease up pin. I met some pretty stupid people in my time. But you my friend take the cake.
If you welded up your k-member due to it being cracked before you installed it where are the welds on the rusted up piece of crap in the prior pictures. Even the dumbest person would have painted the fresh welds before reinstalling it. You just lie through your teeth to never admit your bullshit is wrong.
This is proof the strut rod doesn't hold anything. I know the first picture is not tight against. but these are while it twas already moved front to back completely assembled. The unloaded bar means nothing because the stiffer the bar the quicker it is in the neutral position on acceleration. Only weak /6 bars stay loaded through their travel. Why most use them for drag cars for lift to transfer weight. You are clueless. Your work is shoddy. and your car is a piece of crap you don't take care of.
Bushing on left a two piece style was used for the pictures. Can't get stiffer then those and they didn't hold **** to stop this movement. With the t-bar out I can slide it off the end of the pin. The strut rod does not hold nothing at the control bushing. and if you use and adjustable strut with a swivels its worse.
double
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Never use nylocks on suspension parts. Always try and use a castle nut with a cotter pin or a Top lock.
Dave999
Well-Known Member
regardless of equipment on or off the car suspension loaded or not
forces applied to the stub axle that then pivot around the lower arm end of the strut rod will attempt to move the inner end of the lower control arm forward into the K frame or backwards into the torsion bar. dependent on if you are going forward or going backwards.
The action will cause a shear force on the bush and the pivot pin because the end of the lower arm will try to scribe a short arc rather than move in linear fashion.
that has to be a given.... "its basic geometry"
How much movement shows in the real world. i don't know, potentially more than with bonded rubber. i'm sure it can pull the bonded centre of the bonded rubber bush forwards and backwards a small amount
i don't know this definitely happens, and can't back it up because i'm an idiot who also doesn't understand basic geometry or how the suspension on my car works......
but it seems to make sense if you look at it as a triangle with some forces applied and one part of that triangle not physically constrained.
This chap in the UK has come up with a different solution, he posts here in the early A body section from time to time
and i think he may be correct when he states "not aware of anyone else who has done this"
1966 Barracuda. Converting to RHD - Page 12 - Mopar Muscle Association UK
Dave
forces applied to the stub axle that then pivot around the lower arm end of the strut rod will attempt to move the inner end of the lower control arm forward into the K frame or backwards into the torsion bar. dependent on if you are going forward or going backwards.
The action will cause a shear force on the bush and the pivot pin because the end of the lower arm will try to scribe a short arc rather than move in linear fashion.
that has to be a given.... "its basic geometry"
How much movement shows in the real world. i don't know, potentially more than with bonded rubber. i'm sure it can pull the bonded centre of the bonded rubber bush forwards and backwards a small amount
i don't know this definitely happens, and can't back it up because i'm an idiot who also doesn't understand basic geometry or how the suspension on my car works......
but it seems to make sense if you look at it as a triangle with some forces applied and one part of that triangle not physically constrained.
This chap in the UK has come up with a different solution, he posts here in the early A body section from time to time
and i think he may be correct when he states "not aware of anyone else who has done this"
1966 Barracuda. Converting to RHD - Page 12 - Mopar Muscle Association UK
Dave
Exactly what Steve did to the pin he use a bolt from the back c-clipped the outer shell in the front. But he found bearings that fit. Not for street use though . You'll feel everything from the road. Steve was doing this for a drag car. not road racing. We wanted to eliminate the movement front and back to run coil overs with factory control arms with no fear of the arm coming off at the pin.
We all physically saw the arm coming on and off the pin on our car at the track, several pit members that were there saw it. Should have took videos then but never thought anyone would deny this happening. Your talking leverage from the end of the spindle off the strut rod . not just from the short distance of the arm itself. So refigure your geometry
We all physically saw the arm coming on and off the pin on our car at the track, several pit members that were there saw it. Should have took videos then but never thought anyone would deny this happening. Your talking leverage from the end of the spindle off the strut rod . not just from the short distance of the arm itself. So refigure your geometry
The second sentence shows you are just running your mouth out of ignorance.
In the car the torsion bar always has load on it dummy. ALWAYS.
Otherwise it would be sitting on the stops.
I didn’t read after that. No point in it.
Potentially not while pulling a wheelie? You hang the suspension to remove the torsion bars, right, so would that not be a similar situation?
Not trying to be a smart *** at all, because I'm not tracking OMM at all here, but I have wondered about that scenario. (add-on edit; not that I'm thinking they're going to slide out and fall on the track)
@Captainkirk , I'd also agree with Post 33 from @junkyardhero for your stated objectives
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Go back and read what I said.
OMM said what? “The torsion bar doesn’t stay loaded when DRIVING THE CAR”. His words, not mine. You can read it any way you want but CLEARLY OMM is talking out of his ***. Again.
Are you familiar with spring rate and preload? Even when you have the tires off the ground there is LOAD ON THE SPRING.
This is so rudimentary it’s a damn shame he’s posting garbage like he does.
There is always load on the spring, whether it’s a torsion bar or a coil spring.
Dave999
Well-Known Member
id say that depends on the relationship between bump stops and upper arm
on a thinner torsion bar it will potentially be loaded when the suspension has drooped to the point where its travel is stopped by a bump stop. you'd need to adjust the adjuster to unload it to get it out.
i have not got 1 inch+ torsion bars to check with but a stronger spring flexes less to suspend the same mass, so at full droop you may have a torsion bar that is not loaded in the normal direction and could be not loaded at all.
or you may have a torsion bar that is resisting full droop and is loaded in the other direction by the mass of the wheels brakes and spindle.I believe this would lift the adjuster off the end of the adjuster bolt...
dunno if it happens
potentially could with a torsion bar of a specific thickness that doesn't then need the adjusters wound out to remove them at full droop.
doesn't happen. potentially true for all standard kit
for aftermarket stuff well.. light weight motor in a light weight car with big fat torsion bars?????
same concept as running rock hard lowering springs or cut down standard springs on a McPherson strut. lift the front and the short spring pops out of the top cup. because it is no longer loaded
bendy crap originals under tension all the time' just not much at full droop
on a thinner torsion bar it will potentially be loaded when the suspension has drooped to the point where its travel is stopped by a bump stop. you'd need to adjust the adjuster to unload it to get it out.
i have not got 1 inch+ torsion bars to check with but a stronger spring flexes less to suspend the same mass, so at full droop you may have a torsion bar that is not loaded in the normal direction and could be not loaded at all.
or you may have a torsion bar that is resisting full droop and is loaded in the other direction by the mass of the wheels brakes and spindle.I believe this would lift the adjuster off the end of the adjuster bolt...
dunno if it happens
potentially could with a torsion bar of a specific thickness that doesn't then need the adjusters wound out to remove them at full droop.
doesn't happen. potentially true for all standard kit
for aftermarket stuff well.. light weight motor in a light weight car with big fat torsion bars?????
same concept as running rock hard lowering springs or cut down standard springs on a McPherson strut. lift the front and the short spring pops out of the top cup. because it is no longer loaded
bendy crap originals under tension all the time' just not much at full droop
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The main reason everyone uses the /6 bars on a drag car is they have continuous lift even when it reaches the upper bump stop. The stronger the bar the less it is tensioned to have the car at ride height. So before it reaches the upper bump stop it runs out of tension. this is when the bar has no load. Same as when you crest a hill at higher speeds. when you lose the body weight you lose the tension.
I see this is way over your head Turk Turk. If I were you I would just admit you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Look another *** with a human head
I see this is way over your head Turk Turk. If I were you I would just admit you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Look another *** with a human head
NC Engine Builder
Grumpy Old Man
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The utter ignorance on display here is staggering. The torsion bar does NOT completely unload at ANYTIME when its installed in the car and adjusted, even at full droop there is still tension on it. And it will not move foward or backward while it is loaded, period. You must completely remove the adjuster bolt AND the threaded block before it will unwind enough to remove it.
The main reason everyone uses the /6 bars on a drag car is they have continuous lift even when it reaches the upper bump stop.
The stronger the bar the less it is tensioned to have the car at ride height. So before it reaches the upper bump stop it runs out of tension. this is when the bar has no load. Same as when you crest a hill at higher speeds. when you lose the body weight you lose the tension.
I see this is way over your head Turk Turk. If I were you I would just admit you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
The stronger the bar the less it is tensioned to have the car at ride height. So before it reaches the upper bump stop it runs out of tension. this is when the bar has no load. Same as when you crest a hill at higher speeds. when you lose the body weight you lose the tension.
I see this is way over your head Turk Turk. If I were you I would just admit you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
I love it. Keep going you thief. You are exposing your ignorance. Again. And you are ******* people up with your bad advice. AGAIN.
That’s absolutely NOT the reason /6 bars are used. **** me running.
You use a LOWER SPRING RATE to get preload on the spring so it has some stored energy to help get the front of the car moving up.
You control that motion and its speed with the shocks.
You have no concept of spring rates, preload or chassis.
Moron
Stored energy means continuous pressure lifting to is max height. Shocks used are usually 90-10's and don't slow the lift rate . A stiffer bar has less lift travel. You are really making a fool of yourself. Do I need to send you the page out of the DC chassis manual? What does thievory have to do with anything I said ? I would quit while your behind. Turk Turk
Don't worry , God says I still have to love my neighbor. No matter how dumb you are. You are floating in the clouds like your location says.
and i'll add to it, a lot of the 1/8th mile guys i know have since switched to running heavier bars to better control and tune the chassis. granted they're not dedicated race cars, but they're still damn fast cars that are street driven.
for those of you still following along (i'm sorry).
but a point of reference: spring rate (t-bar size) and shocks will have more bearing and affect on ride quality than poly/delrin vs a rubber bushing.
shitty shocks give a shitty ride regardless of what the composition of the bushings happens to be.
but a point of reference: spring rate (t-bar size) and shocks will have more bearing and affect on ride quality than poly/delrin vs a rubber bushing.
shitty shocks give a shitty ride regardless of what the composition of the bushings happens to be.
We also tied our car down with extended bump stops and stiff bars . But the reason this conversation came up was it was mentioned that the bars never go into unloaded states when driving. the stiffer the bar the the shorter the distance it needs too travel to unload. Or did you miss that. You guys are ridiculous. If I would say the sky is blue you would say no its pink.
We were talking about the bars being unloaded while I was moving the control arm off the pin and I said with a stiff bar they run out af travel and unload in a shorter distance when the front comes up on a launch or a hill in the road. Now you are admitting I was right. They have less stored energy.
But you are all so stupid you forget the conversation and put your own foot in your mouth. Now your saying the heavier bars run out of stored energy and unload the tension. That is the reason the torsion bar tension which is not consistent with heavy bars allow the control arm to move . Especially when unloading when hitting the brakes going backwards. Like I said you can't fix stupid . Hey I just looked out and my sky is blue. LMFAO
We were talking about the bars being unloaded while I was moving the control arm off the pin and I said with a stiff bar they run out af travel and unload in a shorter distance when the front comes up on a launch or a hill in the road. Now you are admitting I was right. They have less stored energy.
But you are all so stupid you forget the conversation and put your own foot in your mouth. Now your saying the heavier bars run out of stored energy and unload the tension. That is the reason the torsion bar tension which is not consistent with heavy bars allow the control arm to move . Especially when unloading when hitting the brakes going backwards. Like I said you can't fix stupid . Hey I just looked out and my sky is blue. LMFAO
Dave999
Well-Known Member
Unless you are doing a custom job just stick with standard stuff, how to use it is detailed in the manual and the results will be perfectly adequate
torsion bars have spring clips bushes are bonded 10s of cents to do this spent on every car produced. thats adds up to a lot of cents...
Noise and vibration is kept to a minimum
torsion bars have spring clips bushes are bonded 10s of cents to do this spent on every car produced. thats adds up to a lot of cents...
Noise and vibration is kept to a minimum
And what the hell does this have to do with the original mention you said the bars alway have tension and never unload. That is letting the arms move on the pin. I always thought you were smarter then this. But you always chime in for BJ blue and turk turk, without thinking it through. I forgot you all have the same Governor.
Speechless? all you have to say is Moron. hurts to be wrong doesn't it .. You all never thought i would get those pictures. Can't wait to see your reply on the video. We have an old running cuda here I will through one of those arms in and attach a go pro when we get time and one of the lifts is open. Wait until you see the movement of that pin and I won't add the special lube. I'll save it for you so it doesn't hurt so much
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