Gen 3 Hemi Swap time!!!

-
Well, it looks like I scored. I found a 6.1 in the state next to me. Getting it and a Arrington CC581 camshaft. This combo has made 497 HP at the Crank. I will also later be porting the intake manifold, will have GTP Racing do it and if I have the heads ported, Dave Webber at Modern Muscle is the guy with his CNC port. Plan is to stock rebuild the engine and run as is for awhile. Should be fun. I will also be opening a new Build Thread for the entire car. It's going from a straight-line car to a pro touring car and I want to show the mods that I am doing as I will have sponsors helping me out!
 
Way to go on the 6.1 It's the best engine for hot rodding in an old car. No VVT, MDS, variable intake, etc. Plenty good heads and aluminum intake for boost, etc. Personally, I'd go with D. Weber for the head and intake work, plus cam. He knows his stuff about these engines and can match it all up for you. Congrats on the score...
 
Cuda SRT8 said:
Way to go on the 6.1 It's the best engine for hot rodding in an old car. No VVT, MDS, variable intake, etc. Plenty good heads and aluminum intake for boost, etc. Personally, I'd go with D. Weber for the head and intake work, plus cam. He knows his stuff about these engines and can match it all up for you. Congrats on the score...
Click to expand...

Yes, Dave will be the guy I go to for the head port, but from everything I read, Mack from QTP is the THE guy for the intake porting. The cam is only 150 and coming with the engine. The cam works with stock springs too. I am putting my ego to the side, I believe I will be building a one purpose car. This purpose will be road race, SCCA type racing. Will make around 530 crank and possibly run a pro charger later, like next year. Will allow me to get TTI headers and be cheaper than twins. Trying to keep heat soak down and I think supercharger may be the best bet over turbos.
 
well glad i didnt have to add conflict to this thread. there is a lot to learn most dont know about pre09 and 09 and newer. things are interchangeable one way and not the other for cranks due to snout changes. apachie heads are horrible for boost.
eagles are the best flowing heads u ported until 2014 as the 6.4 hd truck and hellcat casting 2014 and up are a better material and strengthened decks. and the list goes on and on....

cool you found a 6.1 that should serve you very well. turbos wont fail like that blower will in a short amount of time. also the heat is managable and should never be an issue even road coursing it.
 
also hp efi will do everything you want and is price comparable to the efisource plug n play stuff for gen3 hemis.
 
turbofreek said:
also hp efi will do everything you want and is price comparable to the efisource plug n play stuff for gen3 hemis.
Click to expand...
Thank You. I learned as much as I could in a very short amount of time. I also noticed that the truck "Big Mouth" heads are better than the apaches for boost. I also know that Mopar is now selling the 6.2 short block. Also EFI Source was kind enough to assist in the build, so I will be getting a deal on their MegaSquirt Gold box.

The issue I am having is understanding what really limits the Gen 3 Hemi from making the power an LS(6) can. If you stroked a 6.1 to 426, which is the base LS6, why can't you per say, make the same NA power they can? Is it head flow? I called HHP and Modern Muscle and they say 500 Wheel is max on 91 octane, but I have a friend that runs 580-600 wheel on 91 in her LS6. This raised compression, ported heads, cam and the MSD intake. Amazing stuff really
 
Fst73_410 said:
Thank You. I learned as much as I could in a very short amount of time. I also noticed that the truck "Big Mouth" heads are better than the apaches for boost. I also know that Mopar is now selling the 6.2 short block. Also EFI Source was kind enough to assist in the build, so I will be getting a deal on their MegaSquirt Gold box.

The issue I am having is understanding what really limits the Gen 3 Hemi from making the power an LS(6) can. If you stroked a 6.1 to 426, which is the base LS6, why can't you per say, make the same NA power they can? Is it head flow? I called HHP and Modern Muscle and they say 500 Wheel is max on 91 octane, but I have a friend that runs 580-600 wheel on 91 in her LS6. This raised compression, ported heads, cam and the MSD intake. Amazing stuff really
Click to expand...
the gen3 is an interference engine and the ls is not. they can run extreme cam configurations without piston to valve issues. so the can puff the 91 fuel without much trouble. the gen3 has a far more efficent chamber and radical cams come at a radical cost. boost to boost the ls cant touch the gen3 design. its the block decks, open cylinder bottoms of the blocks and heads available that limits the gen3. apachies are worthless under pressure. the worst gen3 heads for boost there is after spike cylinder pressures. they dont have much deck thickness as the rest. eagles are the best bang for the buck. it is what i have going on my current 5.7 build for 1300+rwhp. have yet to decide if ill oring or copper head gasket the heads. seems to be lots of differing opinions on the matter.
but eagles flow around [email protected] lift stock unported. 6.1s are not that good but the exhaust is better on the 6.1. turbos dont care about that exhaust port as much as a blower or nitrous would.
6.4 hd truck heads would be great with the new mlx cometic gaskets just came out. but they cost more than thitek heads that would already come ported to about [email protected] lift. thiteks win cost wise to me. when i have the coin ill be buying a set of them myself. right now i just want to race my car this year finally. tired of waiting.
 
Yeah thitek are awesome for many reasons. The dual pattern for headers helps turbo guys who want to use stock logs too. I was told to be patient as trick flow and another company are working on heads for gen 3s
 
Gen III's blow LS's in the weeds N/A, they just need some better parts to handle ALOT of boost. Seen many a Gen III crest 750hp NA with ported factory heads, you dont see that with an LS without ALOT of aftermarket help.
 
Yeah I agree. I am trying to this on pump gas too, pump 91!!! haha so max 11.1-11.5 compression. I should be able to do 600 wheel easily.
 
Cuda SRT8 said:
Yeah, I know of one Gen3, 449ci (aluminum block / apache heads) NA at 811hp @ crank. I'm impressed!
Click to expand...

bes built 807hp out of a 5.7 with ported 5.7 heads more than 5 years ago on pumpgas. check out engine masters winners to check that out. it was a 407" i believe.
 
Fst73_410 said:
Yeah thitek are awesome for many reasons. The dual pattern for headers helps turbo guys who want to use stock logs too. I was told to be patient as trick flow and another company are working on heads for gen 3s
Click to expand...

we need a block in the worst way.
 
Fst73_410 said:
Block? Like the aftermarket aluminum ones? Or like a cheaper dart one?
Click to expand...

more stout aftermarket iron block. not the aluminum pos where the threads pull out of their holes. a solid iron block capable of handling 2000hp+. i dont like aluminum blocks to much expansion retraction based on temp for my liking. would prefer it to be made by anyone not mopar produced.
 
turbofreek said:
bes built 807hp out of a 5.7 with ported 5.7 heads more than 5 years ago on pumpgas. check out engine masters winners to check that out. it was a 407" i believe.
Click to expand...

This 449 was originally built by BES and initially produced 711 hp. It was run in the car for just a short while and then went back for a bigger cam and more head work for more hp, but I forget the number. It was put back in the car and the aftermarket rocker system failed. It was then re-built by another shop in NorCalif; heads tweaked even more and I believe the cam was changed again. Then it was sent to Ray Barton for final tweaking and tuning. I think it put out more like 820 hp. (I got the initial 711 mixed up with the 8__ number. Initial couple runs ran 9.56 (ran 9.53 back when it had 711 hp) with traction problems off the line and half way down the track. He was feathering the throttle toward the end of the track. The engine is built for 8 second zone and we're waiting for better weather to get there.

I remember a high horse 5.7, but don't remember it being quite that high. Consider though, that engine was built for a dyno competition. It wouldn't live long in a car on the track...
 
Cuda SRT8 said:
This 449 was originally built by BES and initially produced 711 hp. It was run in the car for just a short while and then went back for a bigger cam and more head work for more hp, but I forget the number. It was put back in the car and the aftermarket rocker system failed. It was then re-built by another shop in NorCalif; heads tweaked even more and I believe the cam was changed again. Then it was sent to Ray Barton for final tweaking and tuning. I think it put out more like 820 hp. (I got the initial 711 mixed up with the 8__ number. Initial couple runs ran 9.56 (ran 9.53 back when it had 711 hp) with traction problems off the line and half way down the track. He was feathering the throttle toward the end of the track. The engine is built for 8 second zone and we're waiting for better weather to get there.

I remember a high horse 5.7, but don't remember it being quite that high. Consider though, that engine was built for a dyno competition. It wouldn't live long in a car on the track...
Click to expand...

Agreed. I am just wanting a modest 600 wheel. There is a builder who worked for QTP Racing that had a 426 stroker on pump 10.1 compression and made 580-590 wheel, ported everything. So I look forward to by build, but this install will be of a stock rebuild engine and then I will save up and let the market grow!
 
Cuda SRT8 said:
This 449 was originally built by BES and initially produced 711 hp. It was run in the car for just a short while and then went back for a bigger cam and more head work for more hp, but I forget the number. It was put back in the car and the aftermarket rocker system failed. It was then re-built by another shop in NorCalif; heads tweaked even more and I believe the cam was changed again. Then it was sent to Ray Barton for final tweaking and tuning. I think it put out more like 820 hp. (I got the initial 711 mixed up with the 8__ number. Initial couple runs ran 9.56 (ran 9.53 back when it had 711 hp) with traction problems off the line and half way down the track. He was feathering the throttle toward the end of the track. The engine is built for 8 second zone and we're waiting for better weather to get there.

I remember a high horse 5.7, but don't remember it being quite that high. Consider though, that engine was built for a dyno competition. It wouldn't live long in a car on the track...
Click to expand...

lol i got the 7 and 8 mixed as well. it was 70xish hp at the engine masters. it was the first time the engine debuted at the challenge. still had a hydrolic roller in it, but had that fancy dual distributor setup with fast efi on it.
 
Their first one is the same as the "Bradley Built" 417 that is still competing. But yeah those things are so badass they just keep re-entering them. And the peak HP is at 6500 rpm or 7000 rpm depending on the year they were competed.
 
Wow so much mis information here on VVT is unbelievable. VVT and MDS is not an issue any longer, hasn't been for years. The 09+ Eagle 5.7 will blow the doors of of any 03-08 5.7. So many improvements over the previous version. Cam and heads on a stock 09+ 5.7L Give the factory 6.4 a run for the money. As for mod money yes cam's are about 300 dollars more but that is the only price increases for modding. Everything else is the same. If anybody needs more info instead of reading 5+ year old threads across the internet please shoot me a pm or give us a call, I will be glad to point you in the right direction and answer any questions you may have.
 
Modern Muscle said:
Wow so much mis information here on VVT is unbelievable. VVT and MDS is not an issue any longer, hasn't been for years. The 09+ Eagle 5.7 will blow the doors of of any 03-08 5.7. So many improvements over the previous version. Cam and heads on a stock 09+ 5.7L Give the factory 6.4 a run for the money. As for mod money yes cam's are about 300 dollars more but that is the only price increases for modding. Everything else is the same. If anybody needs more info instead of reading 5+ year old threads across the internet please shoot me a pm or give us a call, I will be glad to point you in the right direction and answer any questions you may have.
Click to expand...


Thank you! Is this Dave? The only reason of not wanting to run the eagle engine was having to deal with the VVT if using a standalone fuel system like Holley or MS3. I understand that you and I believe Hotwire, both make kits to use the VVT now. I do understand that the Eagle engine with even just a cam will make around 425-450 wheel, as seen with what HHP did with the Comp cam dyno in their challenger.

The plan was originally to run boost eventually or to progressively step up. Meaning if I did continue with the 6.1, I would throw a cam and port the intake. Then step up to a possible stroker kit, keeping the compression around 10.1, incase I wanted to eventually add boost on top of that. From what I have seen, the 6.1 with a cam alone will make around 425-450 wheel too, but that's for the added price of getting a 6.1. However, already comes with a forged crank.

But, I would love to hear your opinion on the decision for 09 Eagle and 6.1 Hemi, if the goal is 450hp starting goal, quickest and easiest. With of course, the potential to step up and make 600 wheel if stroker is wanted.

Biggest reason I looked for a 6.1 was the forged crank and hot rod capabilities without the VVT
 
What I like about the 6.1 for hot rodding in an old car is it's simplicity, more beefy block than the 5.7s, the forged crank, the aluminum intake, and the very capable heads. I hate to use the comparison, but it's the "small block chevy" of the Hemi hot rodding world. At least, IMO.
 
Cuda SRT8 said:
What I like about the 6.1 for hot rodding in an old car is it's simplicity, more beefy block than the 5.7s, the forged crank, the aluminum intake, and the very capable heads. I hate to use the comparison, but it's the "small block chevy" of the Hemi hot rodding world. At least, IMO.
Click to expand...

Who did you use for machine work of your block? I know of couple of places I have used, but always looking for more. Also looking for a place to dyno tune when done
 
Fst73_410 said:
Thank you! Is this Dave? The only reason of not wanting to run the eagle engine was having to deal with the VVT if using a standalone fuel system like Holley or MS3. I understand that you and I believe Hotwire, both make kits to use the VVT now. I do understand that the Eagle engine with even just a cam will make around 425-450 wheel, as seen with what HHP did with the Comp cam dyno in their challenger.

The plan was originally to run boost eventually or to progressively step up. Meaning if I did continue with the 6.1, I would throw a cam and port the intake. Then step up to a possible stroker kit, keeping the compression around 10.1, incase I wanted to eventually add boost on top of that. From what I have seen, the 6.1 with a cam alone will make around 425-450 wheel too, but that's for the added price of getting a 6.1. However, already comes with a forged crank.

But, I would love to hear your opinion on the decision for 09 Eagle and 6.1 Hemi, if the goal is 450hp starting goal, quickest and easiest. With of course, the potential to step up and make 600 wheel if stroker is wanted.

Biggest reason I looked for a 6.1 was the forged crank and hot rod capabilities without the VVT
Click to expand...

i have a 6.1 crank in my 5.7 block it drops right in. still prefer eagle heads over 6.1s and prefer 5.7 block over the 6.1 block for cylinder wall thickness. 6.1 intake etc is swapable to the 5.7. the non mds can be ran on the other vvt blocks i believe but dave would know for sure(?). newer blocks perhaps are stronger than the older blocks but one thing i have not scene to confirm myself either.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top