GM HEI conversion questions

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jordanz03

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Ok ive done my reasearch i understand the premise behind going this route and i am choosing to do so. Now i have a question that i havent really gotten answered everyones kind of beat around the bush about it so hopefully you guys can help me. I have a 318 that has the electronic spark control computer. i want to toss it and get rid of it all. But my questions are, will my stock coil work with the conversion? and will my stock distributor work? Its a single pickup with no vaccuum or mechanical advance. The reason i ask is because i have an 86 f150 that has a 73 f100 dizzy in it that still has points and i dont have the advance hooked up and she runs likke a top.

Thanks guys any help is greatly appreciated
 
sounds like a lean burn set up..


your better off with a mechanical dizzy. and yes your coil will work as long as you keep the ballast i believe.. best bet in my opinion is to get a the E-coil and eliminate the ballast all together..
 
its some sort of lean burn....ive been on all the diplomat forums i could and no once could help so i stumbled on this forum and seen all the threads about the switch and figured yall would know the best even though i have a diplomat not an A body. Just so if this help its an 87 diplomat with a 318 2bbl electronic feedback carb. but now my question still remains can i use my stock dizzy without destroying anything?
 
NO. You need to scare up a non lean burn dist. The problem with buying a "stocker" is that just about all of em have a long slow advance curve for smog engines. If you can afford it, you are better off getting a performance dist. or having a stocker recurved. For example, I use an Accel "Mopar look alike" which has the old Mallory style adjustable advance, as well as vacuum if you want to use it.

You don't really need a ballast, I've found, even with a stock coil. You CAN pump these up with better coils, but frankly unless you are running a 500hp monster you don't need to.

Either break the "tit" off the bottom of the HEI module so that it will lie flat, or drill a clearance hole for it. Mount it on a heat sink or at least flat metal. Mine is mounted on a flat on the firewall below the wiper motor. No ballast, stock coil. Use the thermal grease supplied Make sure module is grounded through the mounting screws. Pay attention to the diagram and don't reverse the dist. pickup wires as shown, or timing and rotor phasing will be incorrect.

Buy a good quality module like a Blue Streak or Echlin

Wiring:

zu5qn8.jpg
 
ok thats what i needed to know. i have all the wiring diagrams and everything i need i do appreciate another one though thanks man. i picked up a gm(actually stamped gm) hei module for now just to make sure its working alright once i find out if its all working im going with an msd module. and yes its just going to be a stock car daily driver im leaving all the emissions crap on there just because i need to put more money into my truck once thats running good again im going to start putting money into the dippy. (possibly 383 swap) but anyway will just a stock distributor work alright since im just working with a stock setup?
 
jordanz03 said:
its some sort of lean burn....ive been on all the diplomat forums i could and no once could help so i stumbled on this forum and seen all the threads about the switch and figured yall would know the best even though i have a diplomat not an A body. Just so if this help its an 87 diplomat with a 318 2bbl electronic feedback carb. but now my question still remains can i use my stock dizzy without destroying anything?
Click to expand...

you should visit dippy.org

main thing is its more then the distributor that has to be changed, you would have to change coil as well unless you want to run a ballast resistor with the HEI (coil needs it) also you need to change your carburator as it won't work with electronic ignition

your carburator has solenoids and a fuel mixture solenoid, without the lean burn/ESC computer your car won't run with it
 
There is no gain just using the GM module unless you use an ecoil or similar setup with it.
There may be some gain if you use a hotter coil, but you can do that with the stock distributor.
If you bypass the ballast resistor without changing to a coil made for straight 12 volts your coil will puke it's guts out all over your intake and die.
Either go MSD or HEI, not somewhere in between.

You can read this about the whole idea if you have not seen it already.
http://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15779

If you don't have to have the lean burn for smog chk then the list would be,
GM ECU
Ecoil
Stock electronic distributor
HEI capable cap and wires
Different carb


If you have to have the lean burn then just put a hotter coil that takes a full 12 volts, bypass the ballast resistor and leave the rest alone.
 
TrailBeast said:
There is no gain just using the GM module unless you use an ecoil or similar setup with it.

If you bypass the ballast resistor without changing to a coil made for straight 12 volts your coil will puke it's guts out all over your intake and die.
.
Click to expand...

Why do you need "gain" and what IS this "gain?"

The Mopar system has no "gain" except the ECU is somewhat better than "points."

The GAIN is a simple, reliable, and inexpensive system that's easy to hook up, easy to troubleshoot, and easy to get parts for, and easy to store a spare in the glove box

You don't need "gain" for even fairly "hot" engines, the stock coil is perfectly fine

While I do not disagree with you that E core coils an such will give better performance if the engine is built to such a level, for most of us, is not needed.

So far as burning up coils, this is nonsense. I've been running two of these systems, one on the Dart with stock Mopar coil, and NO ballast, and one on my little Toyota / Cletrac powered dozer. It has a nearly identical coil which normally requires a resistor. Neither coil runs particularly hot, no more so than ambient engine bay temp.

Neither one has "puked their guts" or even failed in any way.

Unfortunately, my Uncle in this photo is no longer with us

14d1p9j.jpg
 
We aren't dealing with points here are we?

"The GAIN is a simple, reliable, and inexpensive system that's easy to hook up, easy to troubleshoot, and easy to get parts for, and easy to store a spare in the glove box"

Just like the original Mopar electronic ignition.
So I don't see any point in putting part of an HEI system in it.
Either do it all, or don't bother unless you just want to play with things for the fun of it.

Now, if you are saying that using a GM ECU makes it where you can bypass the ballast and not overheat the stock coil, then I could see your point.
I didn't get that from what I read though.

Is this what you meant?
That using a GM ECU allows one to eliminate the ballast resistor?





67Dart273 said:
Why do you need "gain" and what IS this "gain?"

The Mopar system has no "gain" except the ECU is somewhat better than "points."

The GAIN is a simple, reliable, and inexpensive system that's easy to hook up, easy to troubleshoot, and easy to get parts for, and easy to store a spare in the glove box

You don't need "gain" for even fairly "hot" engines, the stock coil is perfectly fine

While I do not disagree with you that E core coils an such will give better performance if the engine is built to such a level, for most of us, is not needed.

So far as burning up coils, this is nonsense. I've been running two of these systems, one on the Dart with stock Mopar coil, and NO ballast, and one on my little Toyota / Cletrac powered dozer. It has a nearly identical coil which normally requires a resistor. Neither coil runs particularly hot, no more so than ambient engine bay temp.

Neither one has "puked their guts" or even failed in any way.

Unfortunately, my Uncle in this photo is no longer with us

14d1p9j.jpg
Click to expand...
 
Hey 67dart is there any particular reason you are not running a constant hot thru a relay. I ask cause I seen the diagram dan made on .org site and he has one .
 
If you mean switching power to the ignition system, "it depends."

Many of these cars are now suffering the effects of damage to connectors, switches, and the bulkhead connector, AND with added stuff on the car, the ignition switch was never designed to carry some of those extra loads -- fuel pumps, example.

So IF your bulkhead connector/ ignition switch is in good shape and IF you are not suffering voltage drop through that circuit, there is no real reason to run a relay.

I did, though for several reasons, and also am no longer using factory wiring in my car. I found a "junker" underhood box out of a Voyager which has relays and fuses enough for expansion. What's in there now is relays for:

ignition/ charging
fuel pump
high and low beam relays
antitheft

like this one:

image.php


It mounts handily on the fender to the rear of the battery, and power from the starter relay stud goes to the two studs at bottom right.

Also, Bussman makes similar relay / fuse boxes which you can configure in all sorts of ways
 
TrailBeast said:
Just like the original Mopar electronic ignition.
So I don't see any point in putting part of an HEI system in it.................. a GM ECU makes it where you can bypass the ballast and not overheat the stock coil, then I could see your point.
Click to expand...

At O'Reallys a GM module is 25-50 bucks depending on source, up through Accel, and Mallory is 57 dollars

A Mopar ECU is 22--50 bucks but they are UN branded until you pay 60 or 66 for an AC Delco

And at NAPA a Mopar ECU is 52 bucks

NOBODY around her sells Blue Streak anymore, I'd have to have one shipped from Summit or somewhere, so over 50 bucks by the time I get it in hand.

With all the stuff I've read about Mopar ECU's puking potting material out the case, uh, thank you very much.

And yeah. eliminating the ballast is just "one more thing."

Sorry, I just don't agree with your "all or nothing approach." There are more than one ways to skin a cat, or so I've been told. For me, this was economical, easy to deploy, and has been reliable. While temps here rarely get over 100F, we do have summer days into the 90's and high 90's, and I've been on several long afternoon outings
 
Ok got it, I think.
The GM ECU is cheaper, and probably actually easier to get.

And you are saying that if you use a GM ECU that you can put a full 12 volts to the stock coil without it overheating?
If so, this is the part I did not know.
Just trying to be really clear on that point.

67Dart273 said:
At O'Reallys a GM module is 25-50 bucks depending on source, up through Accel, and Mallory is 57 dollars

A Mopar ECU is 22--50 bucks but they are UN branded until you pay 60 or 66 for an AC Delco

And at NAPA a Mopar ECU is 52 bucks

NOBODY around her sells Blue Streak anymore, I'd have to have one shipped from Summit or somewhere, so over 50 bucks by the time I get it in hand.

With all the stuff I've read about Mopar ECU's puking potting material out the case, uh, thank you very much.

And yeah. eliminating the ballast is just "one more thing."

Sorry, I just don't agree with your "all or nothing approach." There are more than one ways to skin a cat, or so I've been told. For me, this was economical, easy to deploy, and has been reliable. While temps here rarely get over 100F, we do have summer days into the 90's and high 90's, and I've been on several long afternoon outings
Click to expand...
 
So then you are not running HEI at all.
Just a GM ECU?
Correct?
 
TrailBeast said:
Ok got it, I think.
The GM ECU is cheaper, and probably actually easier to get.

And you are saying that if you use a GM ECU that you can put a full 12 volts to the stock coil without it overheating?
If so, this is the part I did not know.
Just trying to be really clear on that point.
Click to expand...

Pretty much. My engine doesn't need huge high voltage wires (yet) nor a real hot coil, although I'm thinking that the lack of a ballast and the improvement the GM module gives in switching adds some. I no longer have access to equipment that can truely measure spark ENERGY. Voltage does not tell the "whole story."

There seems to be disagreement on the www about whether you can run a stock coil with one of these. I actually have three systems -- the Cletrac, the Dart, and the "emergency" system I built which I ran on the Dart for over an hour mostly to test reliability of the unknown condition of the coil, and coil heating.

This thing has already come in "pretty damn handy" for test firing two used engines

hwlcfa.jpg
 
67Dart273 said:
Pretty much. My engine doesn't need huge high voltage wires (yet) nor a real hot coil, although I'm thinking that the lack of a ballast and the improvement the GM module gives in switching adds some. I no longer have access to equipment that can truely measure spark ENERGY. Voltage does not tell the "whole story."

There seems to be disagreement on the www about whether you can run a stock coil with one of these. I actually have three systems -- the Cletrac, the Dart, and the "emergency" system I built which I ran on the Dart for over an hour mostly to test reliability of the unknown condition of the coil, and coil heating.

This thing has already come in "pretty damn handy" for test firing two used engines

hwlcfa.jpg
Click to expand...

do you have a link to where you bought the box you used to house the HEI module in?
 
67Dart273 said:
Pretty much. My engine doesn't need huge high voltage wires (yet) nor a real hot coil, although I'm thinking that the lack of a ballast and the improvement the GM module gives in switching adds some. I no longer have access to equipment that can truely measure spark ENERGY. Voltage does not tell the "whole story."

There seems to be disagreement on the www about whether you can run a stock coil with one of these. I actually have three systems -- the Cletrac, the Dart, and the "emergency" system I built which I ran on the Dart for over an hour mostly to test reliability of the unknown condition of the coil, and coil heating.

This thing has already come in "pretty damn handy" for test firing two used engines

hwlcfa.jpg
Click to expand...
The part that I am interested most in is the fuel ignition and burn efficiency.
The true HEI has a hotter longer duration spark, and everyone that uses it say's that thier car starts quicker, idles smoother and get a mile or two better gas mileage.
The "All or nothing" approach is the way I want to go.
Ecoil
module
wires
distr cap
long rotor
colder plugs
wider plug gap
It seems the best way to take full advantage of the system.

Anyhow, thanks for the input about the coils and ECU.
Nice to know.


66plyValiant said:
do you have a link to where you bought the box you used to house the HEI module in?
Click to expand...

Do a Google search for "aluminum electronics container" and you can find a bunch of different ones.
That's what I did because I was thinking, and actually already asked if there would be any interest in them pre built and ready to install.
 
I mean no offense to anyone that is a die hard hei or mopar ignition fan, but i will never understand why people can't get away from the garbage factory ignitions that chrysler and GM used in the 70's and 80's. The chrysler ballast resistor ignition setup was flawed since the get go, the lean burn system was up there with the GM 4,6,8 engines as the laughing stock of an era, and the GM hei setup isn't AS bad, but still has a weak spot in the 4 pin module, and pickup coils if voltage drops.

do you really want an ignition system you have to keep spare parts in the glove box for to consider reliable?

do yourself a favor and replace all that garbage with an electronic distributor and an ignition box.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-850003-1/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-850610/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G5217/
or find a used distributor, put the $18 mag pickup in it, and save yourself some money.
 
I agree with you on the four pin module but the 8 pin module is an expensive little beasty.:D
One of the things I don't care for about the stock Mopar ign is the low spark power when there is a decent load on the electrical system already.

johnnymac2k6 said:
I mean no offense to anyone that is a die hard hei or mopar ignition fan, but i will never understand why people can't get away from the garbage factory ignitions that chrysler and GM used in the 70's and 80's. The chrysler ballast resistor ignition setup was flawed since the get go, the lean burn system was up there with the GM 4,6,8 engines as the laughing stock of an era, and the GM hei setup isn't AS bad, but still has a weak spot in the 4 pin module, and pickup coils if voltage drops.

do you really want an ignition system you have to keep spare parts in the glove box for to consider reliable?

do yourself a favor and replace all that garbage with an electronic distributor and an ignition box.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-850003-1/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-850610/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G5217/
or find a used distributor, put the $18 mag pickup in it, and save yourself some money.
Click to expand...
 
yeah buddy, i'm completely for the performance ignition conversion, independent of any of that factory garbage (gm or chrysler) that belongs in the trash can. you could buy that summit box (which is an MSD 6al) with a starter assist, rev limiter, voltage indicator, a used electronic distributor, and a MSD coil for 200 bucks total. money well spent
 
johnnymac2k6 said:
I mean no offense to anyone that is a die hard hei or mopar ignition fan, but i will never understand why people can't get away from the garbage factory ignitions that chrysler and GM used in the 70's and 80's. The chrysler ballast resistor ignition setup was flawed since the get go, the lean burn system was up there with the GM 4,6,8 engines as the laughing stock of an era, and the GM hei setup isn't AS bad, but still has a weak spot in the 4 pin module, and pickup coils if voltage drops.

do you really want an ignition system you have to keep spare parts in the glove box for to consider reliable?

do yourself a favor and replace all that garbage with an electronic distributor and an ignition box.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-850003-1/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-850610/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G5217/
or find a used distributor, put the $18 mag pickup in it, and save yourself some money.
Click to expand...


well I have ran mopars for awhile now and so has my father; out of all those years between the two of us we have had one ballast resistor go bad and no ECU's
 
66plyValiant said:
well I have ran mopars for awhile now and so has my father; out of all those years between the two of us we have had one ballast resistor go bad and no ECU's
Click to expand...

out of the last 20-25 daily driven mopars i have owned, i have had ZERO ballast resistors go bad and ONE ECU.
 
johnnymac2k6 said:
a MSD coil for 200 bucks total. money well spent
Click to expand...

So it's not OK to use the hated smelly GM components but it IS OK to use MSD? By the way, I have nowhere NEAR 200 bucks into my ignition

But if that's what you want to do, fine. Just don't try and convince me that it's "better" when I don't need "better."
 
67Dart273 said:
So it's not OK to use the hated smelly GM components but it IS OK to use MSD?
Click to expand...
#-o

:D

i ran a Jacobs for years on one of my 69' 340 swingers and loved it. of course one day it died and stupid me didn't have a spare in the tool box in the trunk. or at home... :eek:ops:

oh well, went back to the orange box. i will be doing the GM convert to my current 74' swinger. it's cheep and easy to fix at 8pm on a sunday.

and if we're taking a poll... 1 failed ballast and 2 failed ECU's in over 30 years with around 25 60's > 70's mopars
 
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