Hard to start when cold

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Mikes68charger

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So I have a 1968 dodge charger this car has a new 4bbl intake and the edlebrock factory design carb that is like the old Carter system. I have virtually all new components to this engine like new plugs,plug wires,coil,battery,distributor. The timing is retarded right now I am not entierly clear what the timing degree is however its set right now and it runs really well. I am curious because I do run normal premium unleaded and the heads do not have harden valve seats could this be the fuel evaporating from the carb over night? I do not have a choke set on it its electric however my father who is helping me work on this says that it still should be fine to run without a choke for the time being right now. Any feedback or tips would be appreciated thank you.
 
So I have a 1968 dodge charger this car has a new 4bbl intake and the edlebrock factory design carb that is like the old Carter system. I have virtually all new components to this engine like new plugs,plug wires,coil,battery,distributor. The timing is retarded right now I am not entierly clear what the timing degree is however its set right now and it runs really well. I am curious because I do run normal premium unleaded and the heads do not have harden valve seats could this be the fuel evaporating from the carb over night? I do not have a choke set on it its electric however my father who is helping me work on this says that it still should be fine to run without a choke for the time being right now. Any feedback or tips would be appreciated thank you.
No choke doesn't help.. for my cars with no choke usually 2 pumps then crank and they fired right up.. BUT.. retarded timing makes a car a lot harder to start depending on how retarded. I would move it up just bit for testing and i would bet it fires up instantly...

Gas won't evaporate overnight btw... if you want to know for sure take off the air cleaner and pump the carb.. does it squirt? then it has gas in the carb..
 
You have to power the electric choke unless you can loosen it and rotate the pod to keep it open all the time otherwise I think it will run rich. Yes, fuel bowl evaporation is an issue, do you have an insulated spacer under the carburetor? This helps mitigate some of that but is not a 100% cure.

Get a timing light and get that sorted. What engine are we dealing with here? Is it stock or other?
 
You have to power the electric choke unless you can loosen it and rotate the pod to keep it open all the time otherwise I think it will run rich. Yes, fuel bowl evaporation is an issue, do you have an insulated spacer under the carburetor? This helps mitigate some of that but is not a 100% cure.

Get a timing light and get that sorted. What engine are we dealing with here? Is it stock or other?
Yep electric choke my father and I are working together on this its just fully open right now Its a 383 was a standard 2bbl now has a 4bbl engine is bone stock we did have it running on VP but we are planning on running just Premium Unleaded for now I might look into lead additives I know that would help eventually this engine will be rebuilt however it doesn't smoke and it runs good and have good pressure and doesn't knock so for now I will just run it but it has a hard time starting.
 
No choke doesn't help.. for my cars with no choke usually 2 pumps then crank and they fired right up.. BUT.. retarded timing makes a car a lot harder to start depending on how retarded. I would move it up just bit for testing and i would bet it fires up instantly...

Gas won't evaporate overnight btw... if you want to know for sure take off the air cleaner and pump the carb.. does it squirt? then it has gas in the carb..
its an electric choke on my 383 we don't have it set up I believe it just sits open right now. We tried to time it to 5 degree BTDC and it ran like crap and was sputtering when it was running so we retarded the timing a bit and it started okay but there was some hesitation when driving and putting my foot down to the floor the car hesitated. When we did have the timing advanced and less retarded the engine would Cough and Spit and it actually died when on a main road it seems to run better being retarded but for some reason its just harder to start.
 
@Mikes68charger

Do you have a vacuum gauge? If so hook it up to full vacuum and see what you get at idle, should be around 18-21in/hg. This will tell you if you have a vacuum leak somewhere because it sounds like you swapped intakes going from 2bbl to 4bbl. I don't think this unless your compensating for a high idle.

Assuming stock distributor, is the vacuum advance hooked up? Is it to ported or full vacuum? If its on Full vacuum (i.e. the port has vacuum at idle) move it to the ported (i.e. no vacuum at idle) Reason being is the vacuum advance at idle might be giving you too much advance and that's why you need to retard it and why it runs crappy if advanced.

What carburetor part number do you have?
 
So, you don't have the timing set and you don't have the choke set, but you want us to help diagnose a hard to start when cold issue. Those two things right there could be HUGE issues why it is hard to start. Get the choke set correctly and then get it running and up to temp and set the timing. Don't just set it so "it runs good", set it correctly for how the engine is built. Since we don't know that, it's gonna be a tough one to guess. Maybe you can give us some details on the build?
 
Next time you go to start it when cold: remove air cleaner. While looking at the primary throttle bores, activate the throttle. You should see two streams of fuel from the acc pump, one stream into each primary throttle bore. No fuel stream means the float bowl are empty [ fuel has evaporated ].....or acc pump itself is defective. Edel use a rubber type acc pump plunger that can fold up, doesn't pump fuel.

If you do get the pump squirt, give it another couple of pumps & engine should start.
 
So, you don't have the timing set and you don't have the choke set, but you want us to help diagnose a hard to start when cold issue. Those two things right there could be HUGE issues why it is hard to start. Get the choke set correctly and then get it running and up to temp and set the timing. Don't just set it so "it runs good", set it correctly for how the engine is built. Since we don't know that, it's gonna be a tough one to guess. Maybe you can give us some details on the build?

Thank you for saying it.

Having just returned from cocktails with the neighbors, I couldn't trust myself to say the same thing with an even tone.

– Eric
 
Trying to time anything by ear is tricky unless you are "really" experienced at it, which it sounds as if you aren't. I get whatever I'm working on running, time it until it's running well. And I still go back and check it with a timing light and vacuum gauge. Start with the basics per the tune up specs. Get your choke wired up and get it adjusted. You will never be happy with the car if it doesn't run correctly. Listen to the "old farts" here, we have all been down the road you are on and had to learn from experience and/or the "old farts" from our generation.
 
Get your idle-tune worked out first, and then the cold-running on the choke will be a whole bunch easier.
Before you start:
If you have installed a Single-plain intake with a large plenum, swap it out for a hi-velocity DUAL-plain. You can make the engine idle on that hi-rpm intake, with a good tune; but that tune will only be good for idling.
Make sure the gas is fresh, and pours out clear as water.
Make sure the secondaries are closed up tight but not sticking.
Make absolutely sure that ALL the air that the engine is getting, is coming in past the throttles and, from the PCV.
During the tuning, if you have powerbrakes, pinch off the booster supply-line. Later, after the tune is in, make sure it runs exactly the same after the booster is back on line, especially as the pedal is applied.
Make certain the VA is on the sparkport, and that the unit works.
if you have a 1406 AFB style carb, they are tuned pretty lean, yur very likely gonna have to get a strip-kit.
If you have moved the A-pump rod between the three holes, you may have lifted it too high; the fuel MUST exit the nozzles, immediately upon throttle-opening.
Do not set the WET fuel-level too low, as the engine will struggle to get the transfers to wake up

Ok this is a good time to mention;
Your engine has several timing requirements. In order of importance they are;
Power-timing at WOT
Timing at stall-rpm
Part-throttle Timing with the VA doing it's thing
Cruise-timing with the VA maxed out
Idle-timing, with the T-slot synced to the Idle screws.
You CANNOT optimize the Idle timing and still drive the beast without detonation, with the factory systems, so don't even try. AT BEST, with a single-pattern timing curve, the idle-timing will have to be, whatever you get after connecting the markers of Power timing and stall-timing. If you need a different Idle-timing from the fall-out, the you will need a kink in your timing curve, which will require two different from eachother, springs. Therefore, where I'm gonna take you, is gonna make your Idle-Timing as perfect as it can ever be, with the parts that you have; BUT, subsequent changes will muck with it, and you may not get perfection back, without modifying the distributor parts.

Ok, to get you started,
Yank the carb off, flip it upside down, make sure the choke is NOT on any fast-idle step. Then;
set the transfer slot exposure under the primary throttle-blades to no less than square. Both of them equal. Probably a little taller than square will be better, then set the mixture screws to 2.5 turns out. After this, DO NOT RESET THE SPEED SCREW.
If it was me, at this point I would verify the Float level is correct. Then;
Warm the engine up. Put the engine up on the fast idle cam, at or near 1800, then twiddle the mixture screws for smoothest rpm. If your mixture screws have to be more than 1/2 turn from 2.5 out, or the engine runs rough no matter where you set them and the secondaries are known to be closed; then the engine is struggling with the transfers. Get that sorted with needles, jets, or IABs. When it likes 2.5, drop the idle back off the fast idle cam, but do not muck with the previously set speed screw. To change the idle-speed, reset the Idle-timing....... by ear, to say 700 on the tach, in N/P.. say 600 in gear. When this is done, verify that the engine still likes 2.5 turns out, at idle.

After you have this slow-speed system dialed-in, check your hi-rpm Timing, without the VA, say around 3600rpm. Keep it to below 35 degrees, maybe a little less, but DO NOT change the idle-timing! from the previously dialed in Idle-tune. This may require modifying the Distributor guts. Until that is done, it may not be safe to open the secondaries.
After this is done, NOW you can tune the choke. But before you do, have a quick peak at the VA. find out how much vacuum it takes to get her started . Then, when on the choke, keep your eye on what the the VA is/or is not doing, as regards to a stable timing. You can't tune the choke if the timing is jumping around.
The combination of fast-idle after the kick-down, and the Choke Pull-off adjustment, will be critical, but the on-choke timing has to be stable.
As for how much choke-timing she gets, the more the better but, don't go crazy looking for more; she'll run on anything that she is, by now, getting.
The electric part of the choke should rotate the choke to "OFF" by about the three minute mark; depending on how close the idle tune is. This is adjustable by rotating the outer housing to change the preload. You only get one shot at this, during every warm-up.
Ok that gets you the Idle-tune, and a safe 35* of Power-timing.
Generally,
your idle-timing will fall into the window of 5 to 15 degrees. This will depend on how the rest of your timings work out, and how perfect you want things to be. Idle timing almost always gets the chit end of the stick, that's just the way it goes.
Oh, I almost forgot
You're batter needs to be top notch and your starter needs to get up to at least 300 rpm. The Dakota mini-starter can do this,
That ancient reduction-gear starter can too, but it sucks the battery down pretty hard.
 
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So, you don't have the timing set and you don't have the choke set, but you want us to help diagnose a hard to start when cold issue. Those two things right there could be HUGE issues why it is hard to start. Get the choke set correctly and then get it running and up to temp and set the timing. Don't just set it so "it runs good", set it correctly for how the engine is built. Since we don't know that, it's gonna be a tough one to guess. Maybe you can give us some details on the build?
Well again as I mentioned in a previous message we had it “set” at what the correct specifications are but when we did the car would cough and spit and wouldn’t even fire
 
Well again as I mentioned in a previous message we had it “set” at what the correct specifications are but when we did the car would cough and spit and wouldn’t even fire
Ok. I don't know what that means, but it sounds like yall got it all under control. Carry on.
 
Get your idle-tune worked out first, and then the cold-running on the choke will be a whole bunch easier.
Before you start:
If you have installed a Single-plain intake with a large plenum, swap it out for a hi-velocity DUAL-plain. You can make the engine idle on that hi-rpm intake, with a good tune; but that tune will only be good for idling.
Make sure the gas is fresh, and pours out clear as water.
Make sure the secondaries are closed up tight but not sticking.
Make absolutely sure that ALL the air that the engine is getting, is coming in past the throttles and, from the PCV.
During the tuning, if you have powerbrakes, pinch off the booster supply-line. Later, after the tune is in, make sure it runs exactly the same after the booster is back on line, especially as the pedal is applied.
Make certain the VA is on the sparkport, and that the unit works.
if you have a 1406 AFB style carb, they are tuned pretty lean, yur very likely gonna have to get a strip-kit.
If you have moved the A-pump rod between the three holes, you may have lifted it too high; the fuel MUST exit the nozzles, immediately upon throttle-opening.
Do not set the WET fuel-level too low, as the engine will struggle to get the transfers to wake up

Ok this is a good time to mention;
Your engine has several timing requirements. In order of importance they are;
Power-timing at WOT
Timing at stall-rpm
Part-throttle Timing with the VA doing it's thing
Cruise-timing with the VA maxed out
Idle-timing, with the T-slot synced to the Idle screws.
You CANNOT optimize the Idle timing and still drive the beast without detonation, with the factory systems, so don't even try. AT BEST, with a single-pattern timing curve, the idle-timing will have to be, whatever you get after connecting the markers of Power timing and stall-timing. If you need a different Idle-timing from the fall-out, the you will need a kink in your timing curve, which will require two different from eachother, springs. Therefore, where I'm gonna take you, is gonna make your Idle-Timing as perfect as it can ever be, with the parts that you have; BUT, subsequent changes will muck with it, and you may not get perfection back, without modifying the distributor parts.

Ok, to get you started,
Yank the carb off, flip it upside down, make sure the choke is NOT on any fast-idle step. Then;
set the transfer slot exposure under the primary throttle-blades to no less than square. Both of them equal. Probably a little taller than square will be better, then set the mixture screws to 2.5 turns out. After this, DO NOT RESET THE SPEED SCREW.
If it was me, at this point I would verify the Float level is correct. Then;
Warm the engine up. Put the engine up on the fast idle cam, at or near 1800, then twiddle the mixture screws for smoothest rpm. If your mixture screws have to be more than 1/2 turn from 2.5 out, or the engine runs rough no matter where you set them and the secondaries are known to be closed; then the engine is struggling with the transfers. Get that sorted with needles, jets, or IABs. When it likes 2.5, drop the idle back off the fast idle cam, but do not muck with the previously set speed screw. To change the idle-speed, reset the Idle-timing....... by ear, to say 700 on the tach, in N/P.. say 600 in gear. When this is done, verify that the engine still likes 2.5 turns out, at idle.

After you have this slow-speed system dialed-in, check your hi-rpm Timing, without the VA, say around 3600rpm. Keep it to below 35 degrees, maybe a little less, but DO NOT change the idle-timing! from the previously dialed in Idle-tune. This may require modifying the Distributor guts. Until that is done, it may not be safe to open the secondaries.
After this is done, NOW you can tune the choke. But before you do, have a quick peak at the VA. find out how much vacuum it takes to get her started . Then, when on the choke, keep your eye on what the the VA is/or is not doing, as regards to a stable timing. You can't tune the choke if the timing is jumping around.
The combination of fast-idle after the kick-down, and the Choke Pull-off adjustment, will be critical, but the on-choke timing has to be stable.
As for how much choke-timing she gets, the more the better but, don't go crazy looking for more; she'll run on anything that she is, by now, getting.
The electric part of the choke should rotate the choke to "OFF" by about the three minute mark; depending on how close the idle tune is. This is adjustable by rotating the outer housing to change the preload. You only get one shot at this, during every warm-up.
Ok that gets you the Idle-tune, and a safe 35* of Power-timing.
Generally,
your idle-timing will fall into the window of 5 to 15 degrees. This will depend on how the rest of your timings work out, and how perfect you want things to be. Idle timing almost always gets the chit end of the stick, that's just the way it goes.
Oh, I almost forgot
You're batter needs to be top notch and your starter needs to get up to at least 300 rpm. The Dakota mini-starter can do this,
That ancient reduction-gear starter can too, but it sucks the battery down pretty hard.
Thank you for the information I will try and get my dad to see this again I’m working with someone who’s not well versed even in forms like these
 

Assuming stock distributor, is the vacuum advance hooked up? Is it to ported or full vacuum? If its on Full vacuum (i.e. the port has vacuum at idle) move it to the ported (i.e. no vacuum at idle) Reason being is the vacuum advance at idle might be giving you too much advance and that's why you need to retard it and why it runs crappy if advanced.
 
Ok. I don't know what that means, but it sounds like yall got it all under control. Carry on.

You also could have a sloppy timing chain. 5-10*BTDC timing at idle should work all the time. Maybe harmonic balancer has slipped around?
We actually replaced the timing chaing and have a double thick chain with all new sprockets for it but that was somthing we thought at first!
 
Assuming stock distributor, is the vacuum advance hooked up? Is it to ported or full vacuum? If its on Full vacuum (i.e. the port has vacuum at idle) move it to the ported (i.e. no vacuum at idle) Reason being is the vacuum advance at idle might be giving you too much advance and that's why you need to retard it and why it runs crappy if advanced.
Yep stock distributor and yeah vacuum advance is hooked up it is full vacuum even at idle. I will double check and see what I come up with on that but thats not a bad idea!
 
Trying to time anything by ear is tricky unless you are "really" experienced at it, which it sounds as if you aren't. I get whatever I'm working on running, time it until it's running well. And I still go back and check it with a timing light and vacuum gauge. Start with the basics per the tune up specs. Get your choke wired up and get it adjusted. You will never be happy with the car if it doesn't run correctly. Listen to the "old farts" here, we have all been down the road you are on and had to learn from experience and/or the "old farts" from our generation.
Haha yes I agree my dad being 64 I am trying to learn from him however he's stuborn and doesnt like relying on other information or forms like these so I try to use every resourse I have so that I can possibly help out but somtimes its a losing battle but I will let everyone know! Thank you.
 
Next time you go to start it when cold: remove air cleaner. While looking at the primary throttle bores, activate the throttle. You should see two streams of fuel from the acc pump, one stream into each primary throttle bore. No fuel stream means the float bowl are empty [ fuel has evaporated ].....or acc pump itself is defective. Edel use a rubber type acc pump plunger that can fold up, doesn't pump fuel.

If you do get the pump squirt, give it another couple of pumps & engine should start.
If this does happen what should I do? Sounds like it just evaportates? Is this common on all mopars and carbureted cars?
 
So I have a 1968 dodge charger this car has a new 4bbl intake and the edlebrock factory design carb that is like the old Carter system. I have virtually all new components to this engine like new plugs,plug wires,coil,battery,distributor. The timing is retarded right now I am not entierly clear what the timing degree is however its set right now and it runs really well. I am curious because I do run normal premium unleaded and the heads do not have harden valve seats could this be the fuel evaporating from the carb over night? I do not have a choke set on it its electric however my father who is helping me work on this says that it still should be fine to run without a choke for the time being right now. Any feedback or tips would be appreciated thank you.
Your startup should sound like this.. you pump the pedal twice, then turn the key and start it. If it doesn't fire right up ..let off the key and pump it four times. Go to restart it after that and if it doesn't start within a few revolutions.. push the pedal to the floor and keep turning it over till it fires. You'll want to pull the air cleaner the following morning so that you have the same kind of circumstances and looking into the carburetor, open the throttle and see if you have fuel squirting in. If you do... that means you probably need to reconsider your initial timing and or look at your ignition system for weak points like weak spark
 
IMHO
>a cold-start issue is almost never an Idle-Timing issue. Getting it to continue running after it starts, well, that could be, lol.
>I say almost, cuz if the cam-timing is simultaneously very retarded, yur gunna have to start the fire very early, and open the throttle very far, to make enough compression-heat and compression-pressure, to be able to light it off, with modern EFI formulated fuels.
>an engine with high cylinder pressure, say 185psi, will snap to life, because the Heat of compression is exceptionally generous. Whereas, as the pressure goes down, say to 155psi, the heat is less, and it will begin to be more fussy with throttle-opening. By the time it is down to say 130psi, the carb is struggling to give the engine what it needs.
This is especially true of all modern fuels which are now formulated for EFI, in the which atomization by the injectors, is so much better than is a cold carb/intake.
 
Yep stock distributor and yeah vacuum advance is hooked up it is full vacuum even at idle. I will double check and see what I come up with on that but thats not a bad idea!
It should be hooked up to ported vacuum. Some use full vacuum but that is for far more built engines.
 
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