Head gasket getting oval?

-
Moparornocar51

Moparornocar51

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
238
Reaction score
1
Location
Austria
Hi guys i have a stroked 426 from hughes engine and now its the 3rd time that i have really problems with my head gaskets, i use felpros 1008

What i have to change is my cheap radiator from procool that is just crap, my engine dont cool down, i just use the car with this engine for 1/4 mile races the first 2 passes i didnt have any problems on the next day, when i did a burnout my watertemp goes to 230, but my Question is why my head gaskets looks like that, just one cylinder is round the others are oval like you can see (the last time i put the heads on i make the heads machine flat by a shop and i used the old arp bolts with the arp lupe and torqued them to 100ft lbs, i have eddy heads)
http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/4feb2008smallblock426strokerdynotest.php

driver side:





passenger side:




 
By the pictures it looks like that gaskets are warping because of compression. Looks like you're using the pistons from Hughes for the 426 kit. With that kit you shouldn't have more than 11.0 to one compression, and that's pushing it. However with that said these pistons are unusually shaped with the big dome at the top, which is where the gaskets are bowing out. How bout you try the Cometic MLS (multi layer steel) gaskets and see how they do. Small block Mopar's have a problem with head gaskets and high compression due to only having 4 bolts per cylinder instead of everyone else's 5 bolts per cylinder. I'm using Cometic's at the present and I'm pushing 13.1 compression with no problems (yet, I hope). Anybody else got any ideas?
 
TimT has very good suggestion and reasoning.
Also, I suggest when was the last time your torque wrench was calibrated? I just went thru this with one of my Twrenches....the bugger was off over 20 % too lite!!! That was why the engine job I just finished pushed out the head gasket. Had to go back in and retorque everything.
 
are these the fel pro 1008? they are the bare minimum... I agree use the MLS gaskets, with studs and the problems should go away...unless detonation is lurking... timing should be no more the 34 total.
 
Very good point by femtnmax and the torque wrench. I'd still try the Cometic's though. They are superior sealing gaskets. They aren't cheap, but replacing the Felpro's multiple times isn't economical either.
 
Isnt 100 lbs with arp lube too much. Over torquing the bolts fatigues them.Whats the recommended torque value?Also the aluminum heads nead a different finish than steel heads to give the gasket bite. Also check insite the head chambers for any signs of contact. Maybe contact is unloading the head causing the gasket to move.
 
Copper gaskets. Jes sayin.
 
send these pics to Fel-Pro, I bet they will tell you whats up.
 
It's cheap *** head gaskets on a high end motor. That's what's up. You don't put 30 dollar head gaskets on a 6K plus engine.
 
Here's another idea: You have head lift, the result of the intake pulling up on the head. It looks like every cylinder is bulging out towards the valley and not in any other direction, I read this as head lift.

What/how do you seal the front and rear of your intake? If you use a bead of silicone, how much gets squeezed out?

Like I said, it's an idea, think about it.

Good luck!
 
daredevil said:
Isnt 100 lbs with arp lube too much. Over torquing the bolts fatigues them.Whats the recommended torque value?Also the aluminum heads nead a different finish than steel heads to give the gasket bite. Also check insite the head chambers for any signs of contact. Maybe contact is unloading the head causing the gasket to move.
Click to expand...

The figures that I got from ARP for use with their studs is 100 lbs. So no, I don't think that's over torqueing, especially with studs as they don't stretch the way bolts do. It is interesting that the cylinder head manufacturer tells you to use one spec, the gasket company another, the fastener company something else. Whom do you listen too? In this case I say the fastener company. If I remember correctly Cometic's spec's are the same or close to the 100 lbs. I still say; go Cometic!
 
daredevil said:
Isnt 100 lbs with arp lube too much. Over torquing the bolts fatigues them.Whats the recommended torque value?Also the aluminum heads nead a different finish than steel heads to give the gasket bite. Also check insite the head chambers for any signs of contact. Maybe contact is unloading the head causing the gasket to move.
Click to expand...

JBurch said:
Here's another idea: You have head lift, the result of the intake pulling up on the head. It looks like every cylinder is bulging out towards the valley and not in any other direction, I read this as head lift.

What/how do you seal the front and rear of your intake? If you use a bead of silicone, how much gets squeezed out?

Like I said, it's an idea, think about it.

Good luck!
Click to expand...


Head lift; interesting concept and certainly possible. I would still try a superior gasket like Cometic or a copper product. I still feel Cometic is better. I believe Felpro is also offering a MLS product. If that doesn't work than I would check the interface values of the intake to the head and explore the head lift theory. The values shouldn't be off unless you have milled the head excessively, which I don't think is the case here. What do you think Mr. Burch?
 
Yea, Cometic's might do the trick, but I think that after 3 times of of throwing head gaskets at it, granted it was the same gasket, maybe it's time to look at other possibilities. You're saying cheep Fel-Pro gaskets are at fault; I don't know that for certain; I do know that if I threw $150.00's worth of gaskets at it and it still did the same thing, I'd be more than just a little pi$$ed.

I don't think 100 ft-lb is excessive for head bolts; back in 08 was the last time I torqued a set of heads down, don't remember what value I torqued them to, they were though, a set of Eddies using ARP bolts.
 
Hi guys i used the black rtv silicone for the intake, that cost about 30$ a tube an its not cheap, i really dont understand wt u mean with head lift?

How can i check that, however first i really will run away from those felpro head gaskets, pissed me off, the engine will also go to an engine builder, just for getting sure, this thime everything is installed right.

I have arp bolts and no studs like some guys said, i was asking for torque another time here
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=239424

Maybe with head lift, you guys think that the intake was sitting to high?

i found another site from eddy [ame]http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/misc/tech-center/install/6000/6007.pdf[/ame] at site 3 you can read about the torquing
And can i reuse the Arp bolts? Or do i have to buy new ones

thx Peter
 
IMO - it's detonation and that's lifting the head. I'd reommend you figure out why there's all that oil contamination in the chambers and on the pistons. If that engine was dyno'd then the rings should be fully seated. So you have an engine with 2 burnouts, 2 runs, and a 3rd burnout and the tops look like that? What do the chambers look like? Something is wrong and it ain't the gaskets. Fix the cause - not the symptom.

Edit: clean off the pistons and look very closely at the tops of the pistons, and using a magnifying glass and light look at the spark plug ceramic for signs of metal transfer and detonation.
 
@moper the engine had around 2000miles on it when i bought it from a member here.... since i installed the engine i have several problems with my head gasket, but on thurdsday i will go to an engine builder in the morning, he will tell me more whats going on, i talked with him on the phone and he said that the fel pro 1008 cant be the problem he use those gaskets on many race engines and never have problems with them

Peter
 
Head lift is when some thing, often the intake though there can be other causes, literally lifts the head. Doesn't have to be much, just enough to release some clamping force on the gasket. I proposed that idea as the gaskets are ovaling out towards the valley, indicating that some amount of clamping force is being taken off the gasket in that area. Moper did speculate on detonation being the cause, and it's a good idea, though I don't think pressure rise from detonation would not act in a singular repetitive direction, it would go any where there was a weak point.

Reasons the intake can lift the head:

the angle of the manifold face is different than the angle of the head.

the intake bottoms out on the front and/or rear china wall of the block before the intake draws up snug to the head. That is why I asked how you seal the intake to the front and rear china walls, and how much of the bead gets squished out. If when you removed the intake, there was nothing left of the bead on the top of the wall, your intake is bottoming out.

The attached pic's are my experience, aluminum intake, iron heads. They were done 3 seconds into an 8 second 1/8 mile run.

Let us know what you find. Good luck!!
 

Attachments

  • 2006_0815Image0059.jpg
    63.6 KB · Views: 321
  • 2006_0815Image0060.jpg
    56.4 KB · Views: 333
  • 2006_0815Image0061.jpg
    65.2 KB · Views: 352
  • 2006_0815Image0062.jpg
    66 KB · Views: 345
  • 2006_0815Image0063.jpg
    65.5 KB · Views: 335
are you using racing fuel ,that looks like pre-ign, also check the top of the pistons for clearance between piston and head. looks like there very close .the last one
i did I had to take .015 off the top of each piston ,they were too close.but sold as ready to go rotating assy. and the block was never decked.
 
Head lift is really bolt failure. Are yiu using the washers under the bolt heads? Are the bolts bottoming out of threading into grungy threads in the block? Are the dowel pins bottoming out on the heads? Are there ant signs of detonation or pimg? What is the static compression? What fuel and timing? What do the intake ports look like? Oily or carboned?
 
I drive 98 to 100 octane no race fuel, yes using washer under the head bolts, the threads in the block are clean, there is no dirty or something like that, i run 34 degree timing, the intake ports looks oily on one head and carboned at the other one, but as i told to my friend that i open the bolts from the heads was not really hard with my torque wrench he meaned that my torque wrench maybe is the problem but i will check that with another one tomorrow with my friend, and guys really thx for your help, but i dont knew much about the inside of the engine, that why i will go to an engine builder on thurdsday i will let you knew what we find out!!

thx Peter
 
Oily and carboned isn't a good thing. Check the intake fitment like Jburch mentioned. I've never heard of the intake bolts pulling a head up because the bolts are so much smaller but if it didn't fit well it could leak.
Those gaskets will hold a lot more power than you're making.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top