Heads, Intake & Carb upgrade...

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KEVIN LANGFORD

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Location
Aurora, Colorado
Hi, I'm at altitude in Denver...
My current setup: 71 318la bored +.030, stock 318 heads, stock lifters, comp cam Thumper (20-600-4 279/296lift), 340 intake, 1/2" plenum w/ Holley 4150 600cfm carb. Hughes 3000stall conv., a904, 276gears.
I have a set of X heads and Weiand stealth intake (port matched) as well as a Proform 650 double pumper, and an AVScarter that needs a rebuild.
I'm planning on purchasing:
Mr. gasket head gaskets (.28compressed)
intake gasket set
I have exhaust gaskets & new hardware.
1-1/2" carb studs.

Can I reuse: head bolts, pushrods & rockers/shafts?
or Should I purchase these new?

What carb should I use? Is a 650 double pumper too much at altitude.

I'm going to replace the battery cables, the starter with a Dakota unit, and move the coil to the firewall as well.

Besides a 340 short block... Am I missing anything?
Thanks for the feedback!

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Welll, you didn't say what pistons you used putting together the +.030 shortblock, and that is going to determine a few things.
In the Mile High City, you need compression. Those X heads are open chamber and will drop the compression of a "stock" 318 down into the 7:1 range... not good, especially at altitude. Depending on your pistons, a later 302 head may be a better choice (or even a set of earlier 273/318 heads)- smaller chamber and flows reasonably well. You could then play with your cam specs a bit to get your Dynamic up into a reasonable range at your projected operating RPM, but that will also depend on your gearing and tire size...
 
Something else occurred to me:
If you're intent on using those X heads on a low comp. shortblock, with your compression not up to snuff you could consider boosting the engine and forcing more air in there; but that takes up valuable under hood space on an A body, and another cam revision... Chinese Ebay supercharger/turbocharger kits aren't outrageously expensive, but blower motors are way out of my wheelhouse so you'll have to do your own research there.
 
IMO, at 5000 ft ( you didn't say),
that combo has the smell of disappointment written all over it, no matter what carb or intake is on it. The 3000 stall will not be a 3000 with that super low cylinder pressure, and so the combo is doomed from the start.

Something has got to go.
If the 318 has to stay, then I vote to ditch the Thumper, and get the pressure way up.
If the Thumper has to stay, yur gonna need more cubes..... with more pressure.
At 5000 ft, with the 318, you will need more than 11/1Scr with closed chamber heads to use that Thumper with a 3000 stall, and the 2.76s will have to go no matter what.
A 340 is not the answer for you, you are gonna need a stronger bottom-end.
With the Thumper, you will need a hi-Compression 360. You won't need all of the 3000, but the 2.76s still have to go.

But since your 318 has already been fitted with .030 oversize pistons, your cheapest solution is a small tight LSA normal type cam, or even, a solid flat tappet.
If you can get it up to 10/1 Scr , then you can run a 360 2bbl size cam with a 52* Ica
By 10.5 you can get the cam up to 56/58 degrees Ica
by 10.8 could be 60*
But getting over 10.5 is gonna be tough. Yur looking at a total chamber volume of less than 69cc. If the pistons are .054 in the hole that is 10.7cc right there! and the .028 gasket is 6.8cc, so if the pistons are flat-tops with no eyebrows, then the heads have to be 51.5 or less ............ so that's not gonna happen.
If yur heads are 60cc, then the piston deck clearance has to be less than
69cc less (60+6.8)=2.2 so basically at zero-deck. But if you gotta cut eyebrows then the volume is 2.8cc too big again. So 10.5 is tough.

But hey, if you are willing to give up some hi-rpm power..... you can slam those small-port closed chamber heads on a 360 and and keep the 2.76s with the 3000 and have a killer bottom end.

Lessee.
KB107s fall in at about .012 from the deck so that is 2.5cc and the eyebrows are 5 and lets go with the .039 fellPros at 8.8cc, for a total so far of 16.3.. Add in say the 60cc heads and I get 76.3cc..
Ok with a 20 over 360 at a swept of 744.6; this makes an Scr of 10.76! Badaboom! These small heads will pull to close to 5000, so lets put that Thumper back in, which is a [email protected] so also about a 5000 rpm cam. And the Wallace says, with an Ica of 52* , the pressure is predicted to be 156psi and the VP is a reasonably strong 135.
This combination will NOT make a lot of high rpm power. But it don't matter because with 2.76s, 5000 rpm will be about 53 mph in First gear, lol. Therefore 32 mph will be about 3000, and this is where the 360 will kickazz.

So there are your options; 318 with a much smaller cam. or
360 with the Thumper and 60cc (or less) chambers. You could use the 318 closed chambers. Or you could buy some aftermarket 57 to 60 cc big-port heads and get the topend back.

But you know, if I already had pistons in my 318short, I would just install a much smaller cam; that Thumper is just IMO a poor choice for high elevation operation in a small engine. As for me, I would install a short-period solid lifter cam/kit. And with a 318, those 2.76s would be long gone. And besides, that Thumper is gonna suck gas big-time.

Now, recall that I assumed an elevation of 5000ft. If you are not at or near 5000, all my numbers are meaningless. And I'd be happy to run the numbers thru the wringer for any other elevation, cuz I have a lotta fun doing it.

Lest you think me crazy for suggesting to run 318 heads on a 360, well maybe I am, but I did run early 318 heads on an early 340 once, with a 318 cam; and that was almost my most funnest combo ever,lol.
 
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Welll, you didn't say what pistons you used putting together the +.030 shortblock, and that is going to determine a few things.
In the Mile High City, you need compression. Those X heads are open chamber and will drop the compression of a "stock" 318 down into the 7:1 range... not good, especially at altitude. Depending on your pistons, a later 302 head may be a better choice (or even a set of earlier 273/318 heads)- smaller chamber and flows reasonably well. You could then play with your cam specs a bit to get your Dynamic up into a reasonable range at your projected operating RPM, but that will also depend on your gearing and tire size...
Dang, unfortunately it doesn't say in the paperwork I have... Just a general master parts list. +030 pistons +030 rings, etc... I did scope the block through the spark plugs awhile back and the piston are flat top... I'll have to investigate more there. Thanks for your input!

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IMO, at 5000 ft ( you didn't say),
that combo has the smell of disappointment written all over it, no matter what carb or intake is on it. The 3000 stall will not be a 3000 with that super low cylinder pressure, and so the combo is doomed from the start.

Something has got to go.
If the 318 has to stay, then I vote to ditch the Thumper, and get the pressure way up.
If the Thumper has to stay, yur gonna need more cubes..... with more pressure.
At 5000 ft, with the 318, you will need more than 11/1Scr with closed chamber heads to use that Thumper with a 3000 stall, and the 2.76s will have to go no matter what.
A 340 is not the answer for you, you are gonna need a stronger bottom-end.
With the Thumper, you will need a hi-Compression 360. You won't need all of the 3000, but the 2.76s still have to go.

But since your 318 has already been fitted with .030 oversize pistons, your cheapest solution is a small tight LSA normal type cam, or even, a solid flat tappet.
If you can get it up to 10/1 Scr , then you can run a 360 2bbl size cam with a 52* Ica
By 10.5 you can get the cam up to 56/58 degrees Ica
by 10.8 could be 60*
But getting over 10.5 is gonna be tough. Yur looking at a total chamber volume of less than 69cc. If the pistons are .054 in the hole that is 10.7cc right there! and the .028 gasket is 6.8cc, so if the pistons are flat-tops with no eyebrows, then the heads have to be 51.5 or less ............ so that's not gonna happen.
If yur heads are 60cc, then the piston deck clearance has to be less than
69cc less (60+6.8)=2.2 so basically at zero-deck. But if you gotta cut eyebrows then the volume is 2.8cc too big again. So 10.5 is tough.

But hey, if you are willing to give up some hi-rpm power..... you can slam those small-port closed chamber heads on a 360 and and keep the 2.76s with the 3000 and have a killer bottom end.

Lessee.
KB107s fall in at about .012 from the deck so that is 2.5cc and the eyebrows are 5 and lets go with the .039 fellPros at 8.8cc, for a total so far of 16.3.. Add in say the 60cc heads and I get 76.3cc..
Ok with a 20 over 360 at a swept of 744.6; this makes an Scr of 10.76! Badaboom! These small heads will pull to close to 5000, so lets put that Thumper back in, which is a [email protected] so also about a 5000 rpm cam. And the Wallace says, with an Ica of 52* , the pressure is predicted to be 156psi and the VP is a reasonably strong 135.
This combination will NOT make a lot of high rpm power. But it don't matter because with 2.76s, 5000 rpm will be about 53 mph in First gear, lol. Therefore 32 mph will be about 3000, and this is where the 360 will kickazz.

So there are your options; 318 with a much smaller cam. or
360 with the Thumper and 60cc (or less) chambers. You could use the 318 closed chambers. Or you could buy some aftermarket 57 to 60 cc big-port heads and get the topend back.

But you know, if I already had pistons in my 318short, I would just install a much smaller cam; that Thumper is just IMO a poor choice for high elevation operation in a small engine. As for me, I would install a short-period solid lifter cam/kit. And with a 318, those 2.76s would be long gone. And besides, that Thumper is gonna suck gas big-time.

Now, recall that I assumed an elevation of 5000ft. If you are not at or near 5000, all my numbers are meaningless. And I'd be happy to run the numbers thru the wringer for any other elevation, cuz I have a lotta fun doing it.

Lest you think me crazy for suggesting to run 318 heads on a 360, well maybe I am, but I did run early 318 heads on an early 340 once, with a 318 cam; and that was almost my most funnest combo ever,lol.
Woah! Thanks for the ideas! Are you a wizard or something!? Cool combo ideas! I do have a line on a 360 magnum for $600... Hmmm!
 
Hey Kevin. I agree with about 90% of AJ’s post. The combo is all wrong and heading down a dim path.
Your head bolts, rockers are reusable. The pushrods maybe. A lot depends on if the deck was killed and how much and how much more lift the new cam has. I don’t subscribe to dumping the thumper though IMO there is a better cam out there.

If your pistons are far down in the hole, the compression ratio is going to hurt a lot. Can you measure this depth?
I don’t know about AJ’s 11-1 ratio. I don’t have the calculator out and I’m lacking information on the exact timing events of the cam.

As far as the carb goes, ether will do fine. I like the AVS over the DP in this particular case.
 
Hey Kevin. I agree with about 90% of AJ’s post. The combo is all wrong and heading down a dim path.
Your head bolts, rockers are reusable. The pushrods maybe. A lot depends on if the deck was killed and how much and how much more lift the new cam has. I don’t subscribe to dumping the thumper though IMO there is a better cam out there.

If your pistons are far down in the hole, the compression ratio is going to hurt a lot. Can you measure this depth?
I don’t know about AJ’s 11-1 ratio. I don’t have the calculator out and I’m lacking information on the exact timing events of the cam.

As far as the carb goes, ether will do fine. I like the AVS over the DP in this particular case.
I'll see about getting that measurement down a spark plug hole. May take a bit. But thank you for the feedback here.
 
Is it ok to reuse pushrods lifters and head bolts?
>yes on the headbolts
> yes on roller roller lifters
> yes on the pushrods, but they have to be length checked.
>no on flat-tappet lifters unless
..A) every lifter goes back on the same lobe it came off,or
..B) they have been re-surfaced, or
..C) they are a specialty with a limited-wear foot,

But as to headbolts, after a few torquings, I wouldn't trust them on a hi-po engine. But what's the worst that can happen? Yeah the head gasket lets go,lol. messy but not likely fatal.
 
I'll see about getting that measurement down a spark plug hole. May take a bit. But thank you for the feedback here.

The cylinder head has to be off the block and the use of a deck bridge and mic come into the picture. No other way.
>yes on the headbolts
> yes on roller roller lifters
> yes on the pushrods, but they have to be length checked.
>no on flat-tappet lifters unless
..A) every lifter goes back on the same lobe it came off,or
..B) they have been re-surfaced, or
..C) they are a specialty with a limited-wear foot,

But as to headbolts, after a few torquings, I wouldn't trust them on a hi-po engine. But what's the worst that can happen? Yeah the head gasket lets go,lol. messy but not likely fatal.

He has roller rockers? Where did he say that?
 
I do have a line on a 360 magnum for $600..
That will be the best money you can spend. She already has over 9/1 Scr, already has great heads for your combo,probably will not require an overbore, and already has a pretty good cam, for your application.
If it's in good shape, you won't be sorry.
If she's wore out, even better, cuz now you have the perfect excuse to bump the pressure up.
 
The cylinder head has to be off the block and the use of a deck bridge and mic come into the picture. No other way.


He has roller lifters? Where did he say that?
Edit! Roller lifters...

My bad!
 
It’s the altitude of where you live that’s killing you as far as performance goes. But I’m sure you have heard this before. I don’t know how much static compression ratio is a ballpark for the octane available to you. Depending on the time he events of the cam, you could get away with more compression. Or, build better pressure with a better cam inside the cylinder.
 
That will be the best money you can spend. She already has over 9/1 Scr, already has great heads for your combo,probably will not require an overbore, and already has a pretty good cam, for your application.
If it's in good shape, you won't be sorry.
If she's wore out, even better, cuz now you have the perfect excuse to bump the pressure up.
I'll look into it, lol
 
So I'm just looking at your 1st post. Really, your intake swap really isn't an upgrade on your engine. Going from a 600 to a 650 really isn't an upgrade. So what we are really talking about is a head swap. What head castings do you have now ?? I know all about trying to get a car to run in Colorado, it has a way of flattening them out.
  • So, with just a head swap and not knowing what heads you have now, my suggestion is to cut the 340 heads .040 and put them on.
 
So I'm just looking at your 1st post. Really, your intake swap really isn't an upgrade on your engine. Going from a 600 to a 650 really isn't an upgrade. So what we are really talking about is a head swap. What head castings do you have now ?? I know all about trying to get a car to run in Colorado, it has a way of flattening them out.
  • So, with just a head swap and not knowing what heads you have now, my suggestion is to cut the 340 heads .040 and put them on.
2843675 head castings on currently. This engine was assembled at sea level. I am just doing minor parts upgrade. Not shooting the moon and making sure I'm checking all my bases for an fun wrench'n weekend project soon. Thank you for your input!

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I grew up in the mountains of Colorado (just west of Denver). I also had a 318 in my Barracuda at one time with 3.23 gears. With a mild cam it ran 16.5 at Bandimere. With a little more cam and a swap to 360 heads I got it into the high 15's.

To answer 1 of your questions, the 650dp is just fine, that is what I ran on my 318. Switching to a 360 would help a lot, especially if you can get it to zero deck and get some compression. The last engine I ran in my car before I left Colorado was a 360 with OOTB Edelbrock heads, Mopar performance "509" cam (don't do that, that cam sucks), 4.10 gears, 727, 3500 stall and my little blue friend....NA the car ran 13.5-13.9, on the bottle it ran 11.1 @ 122mph. If you are at altitude and have no atmosphere, just bring your own...in a little blue bottle :)
 
2843675 head castings on currently. This engine was assembled at sea level. I am just doing minor parts upgrade. Not shooting the moon and making sure I'm checking all my bases for an fun wrench'n weekend project soon. Thank you for your input!

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I put 360 heads on a stock bore/stock piston 318 and the engine is in Loveland. I cut the heads .040, used a factory cast TQ intake with a 600 dp and a MP cam. Car beat late 90's vette, along with a few other things. Wasn't super fast and didn't own the street but was fun. Had 3.55 gears and a 1900 brake foot stall.
 
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