heating up a little more

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famous bob

famous bob

mopar misfit
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I just put one heat range hotter plugs in my 505 , have only driven it once , due to having two bone spurs cut of my right foot .
But it ran a hair hotter even in 70 degree weather , Which doesn`t surprise me , but I have done about everything a guy can think of to get it to run cool enough in summer heat here last summer, and about everything everybody suggested .
2 row/1 1/4'' tubes, alum. rad. , 7 blade clutch fan , overdriven the water pump a hair, milodon water pump , fan shroud .
I experimented w/ a solid mech. fan versus the clutch fan , and found it to help about 6-8 degrees before this currant set up .
I would like to keep the clutch set up , and have thot about a wider rad. , any suggestions ? The rad . is a 27 1/2 x 19'' griffin crossflow , could only go
IMG_0474 (1).JPG
IMG_0469 (3).JPG
to a 29 x19 at most , if anybody makes one .
The core fits the orig. rad. hole perfect , but the tanks are still behind the cradle , as I didnt cut it out for them .------All suggestions appreciated -------------Bob
 
I would run as cold as plug as I could till you start have fouling problems.
What temp are you running ? 200*
 
That rad looks fairly big. What is timing? Cruise timing? What "IS" temp? And do you "know" the gauge is accurate? You can always suspect the 'stat itself
 
One other thing, it's hard to tell if you have a passenger side exit on your water pump that is made for the A Bodies.

440source has made these in the past, some of the first ones that came out had restrictions in the exit port at the lower hose. Think they have their design fixed now. But if you have a flow problem there that can make it overheat.

20210331_174130.jpg


Think some folks even machined out the restricted aluminum lower hose opening.

Headers dump a lot of heat into the engine bays, and big horse power makes a lot of heat too.

That Special Dessert Cooler Radiator might be just the ticket for your application. Then you can sell your aluminum rad to someone with a small block, get some money back, and everyone is happy.
 
Can ask @340mike how his '72 Dart with a 440, factory air, stock exhaust manifolds and power steering, is set up for cooling.

If he can keep that one cool running the AC, same setup should work for you. Think it is close to a stock cooling system on that one.

Screenshot_20210331-180432_Chrome.jpg
 
George Jets said:
Can ask @340mike how his '72 Dart with a 440, factory air, stock exhaust manifolds and power steering, is set up for cooling.

If he can keep that one cool running the AC, same setup should work for you. Think it is close to a stock cooling system on that one.

View attachment 1715716772
Click to expand...

It's funny you used the word "stock". It seems the further away you get from the stock layout, the more you're chasing over heating. Stock with the possible exception of a radiator large enough to handle "whatever" you have under the hood should be good enough to cool just about anything.
 
Ignition timing at cruising speed is a really big deal.
At 2800 rpm my lil 11:1/367 likes over 60degrees. At 65=2240 in overdrive, (manual trans) she still likes ~56 degrees.
My hooked to the sparkport Vcan, is set up with 22 degrees in it, which it adds to whatever the D is doing, whenever the vacuum is enough to pull it in, beginning at about 1600 rpm.

You may know the following; but I think it bears repeating.
The optimum point for the completion of burning and transfer of energy to the crank, of the expanding gasses in the chamber, occurs at about 25 to 28 degrees AFTER TDC, irrespective of load or rpm. It is the job of the distributor, at the prompting of the tuner, to make that happen.
If the crank at WOT receives maximum pressure too soon, the usual result is a loss of power, and detonation.
If the crank at WOT receives the pressure too late, the result is a loss of power, and overheating, as the expanding gasses chase the piston down and send the heat into the coolant via the rapidly growing surface area of the cylinder walls. The still burning gasses are then mostly pumped/ partially pulled out of the chamber, heating up the ports on their way out.
This last scenario only gets worse at Part Throttle and Cruising.

You can figure out your optimum cruise timing pretty easy; here's how I do it;
First you gotta know your cruise rpm. Lets say it's 2400, just for easy of explaining. And second, you must have an operational Vacuum Advance System.
So, in Neutral, rev it up to ~2200, and set the throttle on the nearest fast-idle step. Then just grab the D and advance the timing until the rpm no longer increases. Next, set the idle speed to 2400, and again zero in on the fastest rpm by increasing the timing. Then, with the engine at cruise rpm, read the timing, and subtract three degrees for load, and write the number down. Finally, put the timing back to where you started and return the engine to idle.
What you have just done is find the magic ADVANCE (BTDC) point to achieve the 25 to 28 degrees AFTER TDC max pressure point, at 2400rpm with no load; and with 3 degrees subtracted for safety, which you can hunt down later.
You can find the same point for any no-load cruising rpm you want to hone in on. And you can make a graph, connecting the data points together; thus giving you a target line to aim for.
You can mod your factory Vcan out to about 22/24 degrees, by cutting off a portion of the stops, on the arm.
The degree of difficulty to achieve this cruise timing will be directly related to the shape of your PowerTiming Curve.

With a non-programmable timing system, some sacrifices will be required. I solved some of those with a dash-mounted, dial-back, ignition retard box. Mine is adjusted to give 6* retard and 9* advance.
I use the retard to slow my idle to drive more slowly in first gear.(manual trans)
I use the advance at hiway speed, to zero in on the optimum cruise timing. And
I use 2 or 3 degrees, to flesh out the power-timing from time to time, which is set to just ~32* at 3200 rpm. (alloy heads @11/1 Scr/278psi minimum cranking pressure).
Just trying to help.

Btw
My cooling system, running the same parts that you have but with an ancient 26" A/C rad out of a 1973 Dart 318, ( yes coming 48 years old ) runs a solid 205 to 207 degrees (by IR gun) irrespective of the ambient temp, or how badly it is being abused, with a rated 195* Milodon Hi-flo stat.
I realize my engine is just a 367, but by it's trapspeed of 93 in the Eighth, it is pretty peppy.
Oh, yeah, fresh cold air from somewhere/anywhere is your friend. I cut a hole in my hood, aimed it straight down into the airhorn, and sealed the underside of the hood to it. Much like you did.
 
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Busted lol. thanks for reading the whole post.
I occasionally put typos in on purpose to see who reads my stuff, but that was for sure an accident. Yes 178 is correct.
She has run at up to 188psi with a smaller cam, same results. And
she has run the 292/108 cam at 11.3Scr, also a tic under 190 psi. But that combo ran hot. Scary for me hot. And that is when I went down the same road that you are now working.
I traced my overheat to having fitted the ring gaps too tight. I opened them up from a ring-factor of .0065 to .0080 and honed a half a thou out of the cylinders and that solved it. No other changes.
BTW
the temp is so reliable, I am down to a 7 psi cap, and the top hose is a 1973,lol.
 
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famous bob said:
I just put one heat range hotter plugs in my 505 , have only driven it once , due to having two bone spurs cut of my right foot .
But it ran a hair hotter even in 70 degree weather , Which doesn`t surprise me , but I have done about everything a guy can think of to get it to run cool enough in summer heat here last summer, and about everything everybody suggested .
2 row/1 1/4'' tubes, alum. rad. , 7 blade clutch fan , overdriven the water pump a hair, milodon water pump , fan shroud .
I experimented w/ a solid mech. fan versus the clutch fan , and found it to help about 6-8 degrees before this currant set up .
I would like to keep the clutch set up , and have thot about a wider rad. , any suggestions ? The rad . is a 27 1/2 x 19'' griffin crossflow , could only goView attachment 1715716738 View attachment 1715716740 to a 29 x19 at most , if anybody makes one .
The core fits the orig. rad. hole perfect , but the tanks are still behind the cradle , as I didnt cut it out for them .------All suggestions appreciated -------------Bob
Click to expand...
Bob seeing that you are running the injection system you could richen it up a little and see it that helps ,mine with the sniper runs a little warmer. Try checking what your afr readings are and lower them a few points and see if that helps. As I found what what my afr reads and how my plugs were after checking them I ran a bit more fuel through the system.
 
Unless the engine is used for racing, the correct heat range plug is a '5' in NGK [ the best in my opinion ] or 12 in Champion.
A colder plug could actually cause o'heating because it could foul/misfire at lower rpms, making the engine work harder. Any time the engine has to work harder or inefficiently, it runs hotter.

If the engine has a decent size cam, it will need a LOT more timing at idle than the stock ~12* BTDC [ can be over 40* on occasion ]. Best done by connecting vac adv to manifold vacuum source, using an adjustable VA unit. Waste of time trying to get a non-adj VA unit to work.
More timing at idle will cool the engine because it burns the fuel more efficiently & reduces engine load. Happy engine.

Lean mixture can also cause hot running.

More on vac adv, scroll down to post #6.
www.hotrodders.com/forum/vacuum-advance-hooked-up-directly-manifold-bad-47495.html
 
Professor Fate said:
What kind of temps are you running at?
Click to expand...

With the colder plugs , (ngk 6`s) it ran about 198 - 205, last summer , cooled down to 195-198 on hi way . Never could get the right plug color , was even worse w/ the ngk 7`s I started with , which was recommended as a starting point by hughs engines .
Going to stay with the , 5`s .
 
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George Jets said:
Can ask @340mike how his '72 Dart with a 440, factory air, stock exhaust manifolds and power steering, is set up for cooling.

If he can keep that one cool running the AC, same setup should work for you. Think it is close to a stock cooling system on that one.

View attachment 1715716772
Click to expand...

Engine is way hotter than a 440.
Never on a dyno , but 2 diff. engine computer program say about 761 h.p. , but I dont quite believe it .
 
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brian6pac said:
I would run as cold as plug as I could till you start have fouling problems.
What temp are you running ? 200*
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dont like black plugs - a lot of engine bay heat , even melting hood vents on pass. side
 
67 gt said:
Bob seeing that you are running the injection system you could richen it up a little and see it that helps ,mine with the sniper runs a little warmer. Try checking what your afr readings are and lower them a few points and see if that helps. As I found what what my afr reads and how my plugs were after checking them I ran a bit more fuel through the system.
Click to expand...

Dam guy , you think I haven`t been thru all that ?------thanks anyway tho.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Based on what? He didn't include enough information for a plug recommendation. You would need static and really dynamic compression numbers for that.

Bob, you didn't include how hot it's running now and when it runs as hot as it does. Idling? Driving down the road? Throw us some bones here.
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Did you read what Bob already did? It doesn’t really matter what his engine specs are. The car is running hot. The fact Bobs already spent more then enough money chasing ghosts due to advice its time to do something else.
 
fklskv said:
Did you read what Bob already did? It doesn’t really matter what his engine specs are. The car is running hot. The fact Bobs already spent more then enough money chasing ghosts due to advice its time to do something else.
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Think I`m gonna open up the rd. cradle so the side tanks are exposed to the air , instead of behind the cradle , go to a hair bigger fan , if that doesn`t work , I`ll try the mech. belt driven fan and abandon the clutch set up ,, if that doesnt work call desert radiator ----------???
 
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