Hei conversion Intermittent start?

Electrical and Ignition

  1. magnumdust

    magnumdust Well-Known Member

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    Ran a multimeter to my coil and hei in the run position. It was giving me roughly 11.50v at each side.

    Got a few pics. and a question with a multimeter, what voltage should i read out of the coil wire while cranking? I did that just now and got 9-10volts cranking.

    Pics, mind the short pickup wires there. I ran out of connectors and just looped in the wires for testing purposes. It has fired like this so it does get connectivity. And yes, its not firewall mounted here. Hence the red jumper wire on the mount going to the neg. terminal.
     

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  2. jimmyray

    jimmyray Well-Known Member

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    How did it run when it was 'hotwired'?
     
  3. TrailBeast

    TrailBeast AKA Mopars4us on Youtube

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    Is it just me or is that module connected up backwards? (Distr on the wrong end)
     

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  4. TrailBeast

    TrailBeast AKA Mopars4us on Youtube

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    How about this.
     

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  5. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    No, it appears correct. I think you are just looking at it upside down. Use Trail Beasts diagram, that's the cleanest I've seen yet. Clean up your wiring and check tightness of crimps.

    9V IS TOO LOW at start. Hook a nice big jumper from coil+ to battery and try again.

    Side note: Do not energize and crank with the coil wire loose as pictured. That can "kill" a module

    [​IMG]

    I'm getting lost, here. This should not be all that complicated. Your wiring is pretty sloppy and you may have some bad connection we are not seeing or thinking of.

    In comparison, here's my "emergency" system, which I threw together to fire used engines, and to carry as a spare/ emergency ignition. You just clip it up, and it WORKS Green is ground, Yellow batt, and of course dist. and coil wire

    [​IMG]

    My crappy had drawn diagram is same as Trail Beast. Notice which connection goes to the EXPOSED MALE distributor connector terminal

    [​IMG]
     
  6. TrailBeast

    TrailBeast AKA Mopars4us on Youtube

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    Yea, youre right, it's good.

    I would disconnect all the wires going to the positive on the coil, and jump that terminal to battery +
    It should fire.

    Oops, you said that
     
  7. jimmyray

    jimmyray Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the pics, a couple of observations:

    1. The wires from the distributor are threaded through the HEI spades. The signal from the distributor is very weak, and could be missed by the HEI if not securely connected. (not an issue in the first pics you had)

    2. The wires from the Distributor could have a stray strand that could ground the signal to the mounting strap, losing the signal. (not an issue in the first pics you had)

    3. The Coil is not plugged in. :)

    4. Disconnect the blue and brown wire from the coil, making sure they don't ground out on the car body! Wire a hot wire from the battery directly to the coil in their place.

    5, What is the voltage to the blue/brown wire when the ignition is in the run position? What about when the engine is cranking?

    6. What is the battery voltage when everything is off? What about when the engine is cranking?

    If the connections are all secure (not as in the picture) and the HEI is good, it should fire.

    BTW, HEI's are VERY easy to fry with loose or backwards connections. No need to ask me how I know...

    The HEI like a lot of voltage, minimum 11+
     
  8. jimmyray

    jimmyray Well-Known Member

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    Just read you notes at top of page. 11.5 is really low, either your losing a lit through the bulkhead, or your battery is low, or both. 9-10 volts will not fire the HEI, thats the problem! Cranking is bringing the voltage too low. What is voltage of battery, and battery when cranking? Charge the battery, and recheck the voltages. I put a relay on mine to get max voltage.
     
  9. magnumdust

    magnumdust Well-Known Member

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    Yeah it's sloppy there, the first wiring looked a hell of a lot cleaner, but it didn't work and I started trying different suggestions
     
  10. magnumdust

    magnumdust Well-Known Member

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    It's not purely the battery as an issue. I've had the battery recharged twice now. It's probably low from the tests I did yesterday
     
  11. magnumdust

    magnumdust Well-Known Member

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    It ran smooth.
     
  12. jimmyray

    jimmyray Well-Known Member

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    Low voltage is most likely culprit. Put in a relay that is triggered by the 2 wires you have hooked to coil now, and pull power direct from the stater relay.
     
  13. magnumdust

    magnumdust Well-Known Member

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    Something occurred to me and I'm wondering if it has to do with my voltage dip.
    http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=214567&highlight=Painless+wiring

    If u scroll to post14 it shows the wiring diagram for a charging system. Mine is set this way except, there is a wire connected to a stud on the big heavy brick alternator and then grounded to the block. Now I wonder of that stud shouldn't be connected to the pos terminal?

    Bare with me, on my crappy iPod touch 60 miles from the car.
     
  14. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    If you are running a Mopar alternator, it's grounded through the frame of the alternator, IE the mount and tensioner, to the engine block.

    But IF the battery is "up," and IF the HEI / other ignition is getting full battery voltage, it should run for hours without a working alternator.

    Below 10V when cranking is too low, and is likely at least part of the problem.
     
  15. jimmyray

    jimmyray Well-Known Member

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    From the pic above, it appears the battery is grounded directly to the block, which is OK for the Altenator. However, I did not see a ground strap to the frame, but it may be at the rear of the engine. Depending on your motor mounts, you may not be getting a very good ground to the frame, and this could be a contributing factor. It's not the altenator per se, but rather the battery grounding to the frame.
     

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  16. magnumdust

    magnumdust Well-Known Member

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    Is there a specific type of relay I should look for?


    I'll have some explanatory pics when I get off work. Regarding the alt. and general grounding.
     
  17. jimmyray

    jimmyray Well-Known Member

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    An automotive style 4 prong, with a pigtail. The HEI is worth all of this hassle!
     
  18. jimmyray

    jimmyray Well-Known Member

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    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0073W8BTA"]12 Volt 4 Pin SPDT Automotive Relay 30A/40A NO 12V (40-AMP) (Pack of 2):Amazon:Automotive[/ame]


    See link above.
     
  19. BillGrissom

    BillGrissom Well-Known Member

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    Easiest to remove the distributor so you can spin it by hand, instead of cranking the engine and running down your battery. I would ground the body of the distributor while doing this, just in case it matters (would w/ points). You need a good way to view the spark when testing. Trying to fire the whole engine is too "whole hog". Chew on an ear first, i.e. getting reliable spark. If you don't have the $4 Harbor Freight in-line lamp, arrange a spark plug with a grounded jumper wire to the electrode or body. You could do the old trick of "place plug tip near engine metal". HEI should throw a 1" spark in air, but your plug end could slip, cause over-voltage and maybe fry the module. I recall from the earliest days of HEI, warnings to never run it with a plug wire off (like doing the old trick "pull each plug to see which cylinder isn't contributing"). Be careful because it can shock the bejesus out of you.

    Things I see:

    1. Run a dedicated ground wire under a mounting screw (as others say) and insure it touches the clean metal rivet on the HEI module. Run it direct to BATT- first, until it sparks reliably.

    2. I don't see twisted wires for your 2 distributor pickup wires. Indeed, yours appear far apart, making a big loop, known in EE world as "an antenna". You don't want pickup from anything but the VR sensor inside the distributor.

    3. Your HEI module looks like the $12 Chinese one. I prefer factory parts from the junkyard and keep a new ebay cheapie as a spare.

    4. That coil will probably work. Check that it isn't getting too hot. I hot-wired 12 V direct to a factory coil to drive my 64 Valiant home after purchase and after 5 minutes it started missing bad above 40 mph, with points. The coil was almost smoking. Jumpered in the ballast and ran fine then. The HEI better controls dwell to not waste energy in the coil, but works best with an E-core coil, which you show in later photos, though the wiring is suspect there.

    5. If starting from scratch, I would suggest a junkyard 8-pin HEI module and matching "external coil" (85-95 GM trucks, 93- cars) since one also grabs the cable that links the two for a very simple hookup. I probably paid $15 both times I grabbed a set (plus slipped in the knock sensor and module). TrailBeast sells those parts new for $99. Hard to beat the new $45 HEI distributor on ebay, especially if one doesn't have an electronic distributor. Did you read the reviews here (search "ready-to-run" or "HEI")?
     
  20. magnumdust

    magnumdust Well-Known Member

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  21. magnumdust

    magnumdust Well-Known Member

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    I'm not opposed to the ebay dist., just not sure its a "cure" to my situation.

    I will take those things into consideration when i try this again on wednesday. Tomorrow i'm swamped with too much HW in the morning to have any meaningful time on the car.
     
  22. HotLines

    HotLines Realist - Free Thinker

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    I run one of those Chinese GM HEI with coil on top. Been in my Signet for two years without a single problem, yet I did change to a factory GM module from an HEI I had.

    I learned years ago to use one system and not mix and match. The only wires practically seen in my 64 Signet's engine compartment are its plug wires.

    My Chinese HEI with the coil on top cost me seventy bucks and it works :)

    This is what it looked like when I first stuck it in, no ballast, remote coil, , no box, no BS and all those wires you see wire tied are history...
    [​IMG]
     
  23. peelo57

    peelo57 Well-Known Member

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    REMEMBER to twist wires from dist to hei module that fixed all my broblems on hei ignition.

    I didnt get car even start with untwisted wires, HEI module must be really picky about dist signal.

    i dont have relay for ignition but i have made bulkhead bypass and removed amp meter so i get full voltage to ignition without relay
     
  24. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    You are correct. You have the big frame high output 105-120?? whatever amp alternator, and they do indeed have a separate ground stud. That one appears to have been hot? Might want to mentally note to replace later.

    About relays: You can buy what has become known as a "Bosch" style relay at any parts store, but they may not KNOW that's what they have.

    But I would not get sidetracked until you get this cleaned up some. I would do following: Get the module mounted, and get the distributor pickup wire cleaned up, shortened if possible, and TWISTED. DRESS the distributor wire along the firewall which adds some SHIELDING affect, rather than dangling it out into thin air

    Get the battery charged up, and power the thing with a nice big clip lead direct from coil+ to the starter relay stud.

    THEN deal with low voltage, which is probably a bulkhead connector/ ignition switch problem.

    Google "Bosch relay wiring"

    https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...17.3j11j1.15.0...0.0...1c.1.4.img.OQST9g3NRvs

    and you'll soon find that many (most?) of the aftermarket accessory relays AS WELL AS the ones found in modern underhood relay boxes are in fact "Bosch" relays

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    AND NAPA/ O'Reallys also should have a mounting socket/ pigtail to fit them to

    Here's one with a mounting ear on the relay and the socket/ pigtail:

    [​IMG]
     
  25. magnumdust

    magnumdust Well-Known Member

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    I'll look into this wednesday.
     
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