Hei conversion Intermittent start?

[magnumdust]

Just finished wiring my 4pin hei and now I can't get the car to start most of the time.

I think I have the wiring right. I run a wire from the neg post to the correct pin(b I think) then I have the switched wire/ pos wire from coil connected together on one side of a wire connector and the other side goes to it's correct pin.

Then the other side of the hei box goes to the dist per instructions.

The module is mounted where my old mopar box was with a piece of scrap metal i found in my garage. I "think" it's either a polished alum or stainless steel.

Car gas started twice, once while checking spark with the #1 wire and a screwdriver across the valvecover. And a second time after trying to reseat the pin Connectors.

Any ideas?

 

[tekslk]

Check with trailbeast he knows it all, When I put mine on it worked great and still does I highly recommend it but I dont no why yours doesnt work something must be wrong. wires crossed or something, bad ground.

 

[TrailBeast]

Check with trailbeast he knows it all, When I put mine on it worked great and still does I highly recommend it but I dont no why yours doesnt work something must be wrong. wires crossed or something, bad ground.

All? No pressure right?

The only ground on the module should be it's case and one pin goes to coil ground.
Like this.
Other than the module having a good ground and a good positive source for the coil I can't really think of anything alse it could be except may be if you didn't bypass the ballast resistor it could act like that.
Those modules don't like low voltage.

Hope this helps.

 

[magnumdust]

All? No pressure right?

The only ground on the module should be it's case and one pin goes to coil ground.
Like this.
Other than the module having a good ground and a good positive source for the coil I can't really think of anything alse it could be except may be if you didn't bypass the ballast resistor it could act like that.
Those modules don't like low voltage.

Hope this helps.

hmm okay, i'll have to double check everything. I was fairly sure that i correctly bypassed the ballast resister. Bypassing the ballast resister leaves 1 12v switched wire right? The other wires go between the two sides of the balast resister or to the ecu if i remember right.

My wiring is just as it should be on that diagram, but the 12v switched wire doesnt go directly to the coil. Maybe i'll change that and see if that makes a difference.

Other than that it would have to be a ground issue i think?

 

[67Dart273]

Yup. need to have both sides of the original ballast wiring connected in order to have the bypass circuit active.

Must have the module grounded through the mounting screws,

Must have the distributor connector connected as shown, IE the exposed pin on the module connector hooked to the pin as shown.

. I was fairly sure that i correctly bypassed the ballast resister. Bypassing the ballast resister leaves 1 12v switched wire right? The other wires go between the two sides of the balast resister or to the ecu if i remember right.?

Sounds to me like you do not have the bypass wire (traditionally brown) hooked up. Here's the deal. The switched 12V or "ignition run" or IGN1 is ONLY HOT in "run" NOT in "start." So to get ignition voltage in "start," you must also have the traditionally brown, bypass, or "IGN2" hooked up. This used to go to the same side of the ballast as the coil+ is hooked to.

There are only two wires that end up back at the bulkhead connector --- IGN1 and IGN2 in that harness.

It's probably starting some of the time because during start, with no ignition, it won't fire. You are probably "sometimes" releasing the key back to run with the engine still moving some from the starter, and it fires.

Try turning the key to "run," go out under the hood, and see if it fires by jumpering the start relay. I bet it fires right up

 

[magnumdust]

Yup. need to have both sides of the original ballast wiring connected in order to have the bypass circuit active.

Must have the module grounded through the mounting screws,

Must have the distributor connector connected as shown, IE the exposed pin on the module connector hooked to the pin as shown.



Sounds to me like you do not have the bypass wire (traditionally brown) hooked up. Here's the deal. The switched 12V or "ignition run" or IGN1 is ONLY HOT in "run" NOT in "start." So to get ignition voltage in "start," you must also have the traditionally brown, bypass, or "IGN2" hooked up. This used to go to the same side of the ballast as the coil+ is hooked to.

There are only two wires that end up back at the bulkhead connector --- IGN1 and IGN2 in that harness.

It's probably starting some of the time because during start, with no ignition, it won't fire. You are probably "sometimes" releasing the key back to run with the engine still moving some from the starter, and it fires.

Try turning the key to "run," go out under the hood, and see if it fires by jumpering the start relay. I bet it fires right up

hmm okay, i'll report back tomorrow. I just don't remember missing a wire in the harness.

 

[Desertpunk13]

start from the beginning of the power distribution and begin with the fusible links sometimes they can burn up and have an intermittent connection this can affect other things like the voltage regulator and blow out batteries. The move forward with more in depth diagnostics

 

[TrailBeast]

That's a good call on the ballast connections Del. Thank you

What I did with my own system is use both "run" and "start" wires of the ballast connected together for my ignition power source to the coil.

Magnumdust, did you have a four wire ballast?

One really easy test would be to run the coil positive wire direct to the battery.
It should fire right up this way also.

 

[magnumdust]

Yup. need to have both sides of the original ballast wiring connected in order to have the bypass circuit active.

Must have the module grounded through the mounting screws,

Must have the distributor connector connected as shown, IE the exposed pin on the module connector hooked to the pin as shown.



Sounds to me like you do not have the bypass wire (traditionally brown) hooked up. Here's the deal. The switched 12V or "ignition run" or IGN1 is ONLY HOT in "run" NOT in "start." So to get ignition voltage in "start," you must also have the traditionally brown, bypass, or "IGN2" hooked up. This used to go to the same side of the ballast as the coil+ is hooked to.

There are only two wires that end up back at the bulkhead connector --- IGN1 and IGN2 in that harness.

It's probably starting some of the time because during start, with no ignition, it won't fire. You are probably "sometimes" releasing the key back to run with the engine still moving some from the starter, and it fires.

Try turning the key to "run," go out under the hood, and see if it fires by jumpering the start relay. I bet it fires right up

Okay so here is what i found this morning:

The brown/blue wire are connected to B. I traced the brown wire and found that it's not solely the positive wire. It has a splice in it where one end goes to the positive and the other end goes to the bulkhead. So in theory wouldnt that mean i have the bypass wire connected?

Trailbeast, yes it has a 4-pin balast resistor that looks like this:

 

[BillGrissom]

You need a few more tools. A multimeter - free at Harbor Freight w/ coupon and an in-line spark tester - $4 at HF. Insure you get 12 V or higher from coil+ to the mounting screw of the HEI module, with the ignition on. I run a dedicated ground wire from the screw of mine to a good chassis ground. I would never rely on a sheet-metal screw. If you don't measure 12 V, run a jumper wire from a 12 V source (big stud on alternator or starter relay) and another jumper from your iffy mounting screw to a good ground. Don't leave permanently, or you will drain the battery. I don't know if you can damage the HEI module with 12 V on and the engine not running. I think that is OK, unlike the older Mopar module. If none of this makes sense, call in a high school kid who knows basic electrical theory (the difference between current and voltage).

 

[67Dart273]

.......The brown/blue wire are connected to B. I traced the brown wire and found that it's not solely the positive wire. It has a splice in it where one end goes to the positive and the other end goes to the bulkhead. So in theory wouldnt that mean i have the bypass wire connected?

It SOUNDS like it but I don't understand your terminology. What do you mean by "connected at B?"

You really need to check this with a meter, or at least a test light. Clip your meter to the coil positive, measure the voltage with key in "run" and then check again while holding the key in "start." In "start," you should get no less than 10.5V, more is better.

 

[magnumdust]

It SOUNDS like it but I don't understand your terminology. What do you mean by "connected at B?"

You really need to check this with a meter, or at least a test light. Clip your meter to the coil positive, measure the voltage with key in "run" and then check again while holding the key in "start." In "start," you should get no less than 10.5V, more is better.

by "B" i'm refering to the letter designation that is printed by the hei spades:

Anyhow, here is where i'm at as of this morning. I was about to run out and go buy a multimeter(previously could not find mine) when it hit me that the meter's been sitting my former DD truck that i havent driven in a month.

I used the volts function, was able to confirm that i have voltage at Run and when attempting to Crank(9 when i tried to crank, but thats due to having wore the battery down the other day trying to get the car running. The engine wouldnt actually turn over during this test., battery is charging now @ the parts store)

Used the ohm's function to check for continuity and ground. My hei mount is getting a solid ground. i have good cont. from the positive term on the coil. all the way to the hei spade. As does the bypass wire that splices into that positive wire. The same with the negative wire to the hei spade. And same with the distributor plug to the hei terminals. The small spade is connected to the "male" side of the plug.

And had the new hei unit tested at the parts store just in case. And it passed

So i'm stuck. :banghead:

 

[BillGrissom]

A few possible problems:

1. The 2 wires from the coil pickup may be reversed. TrailBeast gave a wiring diagram, but I don't know what all is out there in wiring. I have heard it will run with the wrong polarity, but the timing will be very erratic and it will be firing when the rotor is not aligned well with the proper post. If easy, try reversing the pickup wires.

2. You may have the wrong "double bullet" connector in your distributor wiring. If you used a general purpose one, meant for appliances, it won't make a good connection. The Mopar ones have a longer male terminal. I found this when hooking up my HEI, with a new distributor pickup (from rockauto, bought 2) and found it erratic, then saw that 1 of the 2 pickups had a regular, non-Mopar connector (Chinese factory goof? if so, how many bad ones got out!).

3. The gap on the distributor pickup is touchy. Spec is 8 mils, using a brass feeler gage. The smallest you can make the gap without crashing into the teeth (as vacuum advance moves things) is best.

4. If you totally give up, and have a small block, a new "ready-to-run" HEI distributor is only $45 on ebay. The pickups look better to me, with multiple gaps for averaging if the rotor wobbles.

 

[magnumdust]

A few possible problems:

1. The 2 wires from the coil pickup may be reversed. TrailBeast gave a wiring diagram, but I don't know what all is out there in wiring. I have heard it will run with the wrong polarity, but the timing will be very erratic and it will be firing when the rotor is not aligned well with the proper post. If easy, try reversing the pickup wires.

2. You may have the wrong "double bullet" connector in your distributor wiring. If you used a general purpose one, meant for appliances, it won't make a good connection. The Mopar ones have a longer male terminal. I found this when hooking up my HEI, with a new distributor pickup (from rockauto, bought 2) and found it erratic, then saw that 1 of the 2 pickups had a regular, non-Mopar connector (Chinese factory goof? if so, how many bad ones got out!).

3. The gap on the distributor pickup is touchy. Spec is 8 mils, using a brass feeler gage. The smallest you can make the gap without crashing into the teeth (as vacuum advance moves things) is best.

4. If you totally give up, and have a small block, a new "ready-to-run" HEI distributor is only $45 on ebay. The pickups look better to me, with multiple gaps for averaging if the rotor wobbles.

I used that diagram and a few threads and they all said to connect the small spade to the male connector. Plus, the one time it started, it ran very very good.

Its not the dist. connector. I used the one from the electronic ignition i pulled out.


So, i *may* have found the issue, hopefully someone can school me in basic electronics(i suck at this stuff, obviously)

Working on the issue 20min ago and my dad brought up the idea that maybe my ignition was grounding out. So w/ the ohms setting i put one needle on the 12v switch/12v cranking wire and the other needle on the neg. terminal. It showed resistance. Which would indicate grounding out right?

Chasing the wires some more i got a central plug in the harness that has 8 connections, two of which are the positive & negative wires to the coil. if i put a needle on the positive coil wire spade and the other needle on the negative coil wire, it gives a resistance of about 1.1-1.5. Same thing happens if i put a needle on the positive wire spade and the other on the negative wire spade. So, that would be grounding out at that plug right? Doing it on other spades on that connector, there is no resistance between two differing wires. And yes the plug(female and male ends) look old & melty

Lastly, if that is the case, anyone know where i can get a good 8-pin plug like that?

 

[67Dart273]

Your ohm test is inconclusive. The coil will show continuity to ground because of the other circuitry, UNLESS you made this test with the coil wiring disconnected.

You might suspect a break internally in the distributor wiring (connectors.) Unhook the dist. from the HEI module so that you have ALL the dist. wiring from the HEI to the dist. Now check resistance across the pickup coil, and wiggle the dist connector to see if it's erratic. I don't remember the exact figure, 200-400? ohms. Also check each connection to the dist. ground. Should be "open" or infinity. Don't forget that contact with your fingers can display false readings

9V in crank is pretty low. You may have a voltage drop problem in the harness. Easy way to check that is to put one meter probe on the coil POS, the other probe on battery PLUS, and crank the engine. If you have more than about .5V reading, you have a harness problem, and a bad connection in the bulkhead connector is no1 on the list.

It SOUNDS like you have it wired correctly. I would hook a clip lead to the coil + terminal to be sure you have voltage to the coil/ HEI, and crank the engine, test for spark.

If none, put your meter on low AC volts and hook to the distributor connector after unhooking the two connectors. The dist should generate about 1V AC when cranked.

On a properly working system, it should not take much movement of the distributor to generate a spark. With everything hooked up, dist. cap off, wrench the engine around until the dist is in such a position that you can "spring" the rotor against the mechanical advance and cause the reluctor wheel to cross the center of the pickup coil. Then with key in "run" you should be able to "spring" the rotor back/ forth against the advance springs and cause sparks.

You don't have any used parts in your junk box, spare coil, extra distributor, etc?

 

[BillGrissom]

273 gives excellent details. I didn't read that you tried my 1st suggestion of running a jumper from BATT+ direct to coil+. That would take your bulkhead, wiring, and key switch out of the equation.

One more little thing. When I was testing the 8-pin HEI in my slant, spinning the distributor by hand, I found that it could "self-excite" itself - the pickup wires saw the plug wire current, causing a positive feedback loop so it would spark fast continuously with the distributor not turning. This was when using long jumper wires from pickup to HEI module. If you use short pickup wires and twist them, should avoid such false pickup. In the GM system, the pickup wires are only ~2" long to the module. Some, (TrailBeast's photos) put the module way over on the firewall. Mopar did that too, so maybe no issue, but its design is different too.

 

[magnumdust]

273 gives excellent details. I didn't read that you tried my 1st suggestion of running a jumper from BATT+ direct to coil+. That would take your bulkhead, wiring, and key switch out of the equation.

One more little thing. When I was testing the 8-pin HEI in my slant, spinning the distributor by hand, I found that it could "self-excite" itself - the pickup wires saw the plug wire current, causing a positive feedback loop so it would spark fast continuously with the distributor not turning. This was when using long jumper wires from pickup to HEI module. If you use short pickup wires and twist them, should avoid such false pickup. In the GM system, the pickup wires are only ~2" long to the module. Some, (TrailBeast's photos) put the module way over on the firewall. Mopar did that too, so maybe no issue, but its design is different too.

Did the jumper suggestion yesterday, no change.

 

[67Dart273]

SO difficult to second guess from hundreds of miles away. How certain are you the module is grounded?

Any local friends you can borrow a distributor? Even a Chivvy/ GM friend with a spare GM distributor, you can "rig" the module in for testing?

Spare coil?

 

[magnumdust]

SO difficult to second guess from hundreds of miles away. How certain are you the module is grounded?

Any local friends you can borrow a distributor? Even a Chivvy/ GM friend with a spare GM distributor, you can "rig" the module in for testing?

Spare coil?

At this point i'm positive the module is grounded. I ran some continuity tests yesterday which showed it had ground and even today just to be sure, i ran a jumper from the module to the neg. terminal.

Tried shorter wires as Bill suggested just for the heck of it. No luck.

I only have two coils, the one it had with the original electric ignition and the E-core coil i bought for the system. Tried both, no luck with either. Tried the jumper with both, and again no luck.

And nope, no friends with spare hei dist. My friends either work on newer stuff or the awful pre-muscle car era crap.

At this point, i'm just about ready to scrap it all and pick up an ebay hei distributor.

 

[67Dart273]

Well, there just isn't that much there You've eliminated the coil, so what's left?

Wiring problem

Distributor problem

Bad module.

Frankly if it were me, I'd do as I was thinking earlier---do what it takes to get a distributor, either junkyard, craigslist, or borrow one, whatever's cheap. You can use that out of the engine.

Even if you have a friend with a spare GM dist you can use it out of a car to test the module.

 

[tekslk]

Go to advance auto buy a reman than take it back and get a refund when your finshed.

 

[Joe Dokes]

CHECK THE AIR GAP as suggested above.

On mopar Electronic Ignition it is set at .004, the above poster recommends .008. VERY IMPORTANT USE A BRASS FEELER GAUGE, a steel feeler gauge will be attracted to the magnet and make it SEEM like the gap is correct when it is not.

If the gap is not correct the car will not start or run. If it does start it will stay running but as the motor heats up and the distributor gets warm the air gap will open, so when you stop the car it will not start.

Finally, make sure your battery is in excellent shape. If you don't spin the motor sufficiently fast enough you won't get the hall effect device to trip, thus no spark.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Joe Dokes

 

[magnumdust]

CHECK THE AIR GAP as suggested above.

On mopar Electronic Ignition it is set at .004, the above poster recommends .008. VERY IMPORTANT USE A BRASS FEELER GAUGE, a steel feeler gauge will be attracted to the magnet and make it SEEM like the gap is correct when it is not.

If the gap is not correct the car will not start or run. If it does start it will stay running but as the motor heats up and the distributor gets warm the air gap will open, so when you stop the car it will not start.

Finally, make sure your battery is in excellent shape. If you don't spin the motor sufficiently fast enough you won't get the hall effect device to trip, thus no spark.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Joe Dokes

The only reason i havent checked these things is that the dist worked fine prior to the hei change. So why would it suddenly fail with a better ignition system?

 

[67Dart273]

CHECK THE AIR GAP
On mopar Electronic Ignition it is set at .004, the above poster recommends .008.

Don't know where you got .004". Every book I've ever seen says .008". That is inches, not mm.

 

[Joe Dokes]

Don't know where you got .004". Every book I've ever seen says .008". That is inches, not mm.

Hmmm, interesting. Was that .008 Hot? I know that the gap will open up when hot, that is why a car might start fine cold but not start hot.

Back in the late 80s I converted my car to a Stinger Electronic Ignition kit, but I used a stock Chrysler distributor with their electronics box. The guy at Stinger handed me a .004 brass feeler gauge and told me to use that, never had a problem. Just assumed .004 was the correct size.

I've been wrong before.

Regards,

Joe Dokes