hello from New Zealand, 18 spline head ache a833.

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chrisskates2004

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just a guy trying to figure out this mopar stuff

weve got valiants, small blocks and slant 6s down here

trying to figure out how to use the 18 spline a833 ive bought to put behind a small block v8 318

but i cant load the link to the google drive

it does have liberty gears

yours truly, new zealand

mopar 18 spline - Google Drive

30E0527D-70BD-496E-BDBF-CFDA23B9730F.jpg


19CADA48-8093-448F-90AC-DCBBC7241EE2.jpg


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What is the issue? Use an 18 spline Clutch and flywheel, small block bellhousing that fits the retainer size. Clutch assy etc
 
Yup. Way WAY back in about '73 I swapped a 340 into my 70 440-6 RR. Had to have the hole in the bell turned out larger for the retainer, and just got a 10 1/2" 18 spline disk.

YOU MAY HAVE A SMALL BLOCK whereby the crank pilot hole is not finished, and I had a 5.9 Magnum that was not bored at ALL. Automatic, it only had the converter bore bored

You need 1 of 2 ways:

Whatever 3 ways you need the crank hole deep enough to clear the shaft end, obviously

1...You do NOT need to run a pilot in the original "stick" part of the crank. You can run the newer large pilot that fits in the converter bore In this case the very end of the pilot bore does not need to be "finished," but just large enough to for sure clear the crank

2....You could have the crank bored to fit the original type pilot, IE duplicate an LA factory stick crank

Years ago there were small diameter pilots made to fit the undersize diameter automatic cranks

Everybody recommends "Brewers Performance." I've not dealt with them, but they seem to have a good reputation.


 
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Yup. Way WAY back in about '73 I swapped a 340 into my 70 440-6 RR. Had to have the hole in the bell turned out larger for the retainer, and just got a 10 1/2" 18 spline disk.

YOU MAY HAVE A SMALL BLOCK whereby the crank pilot hole is not finished, and I had a 5.9 Magnum that was not bored at ALL. Automatic, it only had the converter bore bored

You need 1 of 2 ways:

Whatever 3 ways you need the crank hole deep enough to clear the shaft end, obviously

1...You do NOT need to run a pilot in the original "stick" part of the crank. You can run the newer large pilot that fits in the converter bore In this case the very end of the pilot bore does not need to be "finished," but just large enough to for sure clear the crank

2....You could have the crank bored to fit the original type pilot, IE duplicate an LA factory stick crank

Years ago there were small diameter pilots made to fit the undersize diameter automatic cranks

Everybody recommends "Brewers Performance." I've not dealt with them, but they seem to have a good reputation.


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hi 67dart,

I was worried about the 2 different sizes of spigot bush size here

appreciate the explanation

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IDK what that short fat input fits but I've never seen anything like that come out of any SBM or slanty.
It looks like a Chevy to me..... but Chevy's are 10spl usually.......
 
AJ IS CORRECT. We need a photo of the complete gearbox. GM used several different combinations of A833, including a stock looking case with an adapter plate, a special case with GM bolt pattern, and some even had Chev 10? spline shafts. All GM 833's except the 4x4 ones (that I've heard of) used special tail housings.

What you need to measure for length is all the way from the transmission/ bell housing face to the end of the shaft All Mopar shafts from the 60;s that are in this "old" group (not talking about Cummins or Dakotas, etc) all of them are same length. from factory.
 
as said above, Liberty gears for a 833 used behind GM engine. adapter plate usually made up the difference for the longer length. maybe no adapter and just a redrilled scattershield? if needed, I'll dig my set out and measure. but don't hold your breathe, it's in the garage...somewhere!
 
IDK what that short fat input fits but I've never seen anything like that come out of any SBM or slanty.
It looks like a Chevy to me..... but Chevy's are 10spl usually.......
i was thinking chevy, buts its 18 like you said with the same size retainer

but with different side for bearing carrier

IMG_5406.jpg


IMG_5407.jpg


IMG_5405.jpg


IMG_5408.jpg
 
AJ IS CORRECT. We need a photo of the complete gearbox. GM used several different combinations of A833, including a stock looking case with an adapter plate, a special case with GM bolt pattern, and some even had Chev 10? spline shafts. All GM 833's except the 4x4 ones (that I've heard of) used special tail housings.

What you need to measure for length is all the way from the transmission/ bell housing face to the end of the shaft All Mopar shafts from the 60;s that are in this "old" group (not talking about Cummins or Dakotas, etc) all of them are same length. from factory.
Hi 67

ill fish out a few more of the complete box,

i never knew chev used the a833 i thought it was mopar only

i was told it ran behind a 426,

IMG_5415.jpg


input new (4).jpg


input new (2).jpg
 
as said above, Liberty gears for a 833 used behind GM engine. adapter plate usually made up the difference for the longer length. maybe no adapter and just a redrilled scattershield? if needed, I'll dig my set out and measure. but don't hold your breathe, it's in the garage...somewhere!
hey abdywgn

no worries any help is good help,

it is shorter than the cuda a833 i have next to it

the rear housing is the same tho, just has a blank over the speedo drive

input new (6).jpg


input old (3).jpg
 
I believe either that was GM or some other adaptation. YOU NEED TO MAKE CERTAIN this is not an overdrive box. To do that all you need to do is to determine if 3rd gear is underdriven or overdriven. Take a wrench and rotate the front shifter shaft clockwise which will put the gearbox in 3rd gear. Now rotate the front shaft exactly 1 turn while watching the output shaft. If it goes less than 1 turn it's a conventional 4 speed. If the output goes more than 1 turn it's an overdrive box.

This thread has a couple of good dimension charts
 
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I believe either that was GM or some other adaptation. YOU NEED TO MAKE CERTAIN this is not an overdrive box. To do that all you need to do is to determine if 3rd gear is underdriven or overdriven. Take a wrench and rotate the front shifter shaft clockwise which will put the gearbox in 3rd gear. Now rotate the front shaft exactly 1 turn while watching the output shaft. If it goes less than 1 turn it's a conventional 4 speed. If the output goes more than 1 turn it's an overdrive box.
Extremely useful information

I’ll test tonight, and check that page out

And measure the shaft precisely.

So if it’s a gm, how do we work it to a small block mopar, purchase a new input shaft ? Or bell housing and clutch custom job ?

Again, many thanks.
 
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I believe either that was GM or some other adaptation. YOU NEED TO MAKE CERTAIN this is not an overdrive box. To do that all you need to do is to determine if 3rd gear is underdriven or overdriven. Take a wrench and rotate the front shifter shaft clockwise which will put the gearbox in 3rd gear. Now rotate the front shaft exactly 1 turn while watching the output shaft. If it goes less than 1 turn it's a conventional 4 speed. If the output goes more than 1 turn it's an overdrive box.
What would it mean if it was an overdrive gearbox? Less robust or less in value ?
 
I believe either that was GM or some other adaptation. YOU NEED TO MAKE CERTAIN this is not an overdrive box. To do that all you need to do is to determine if 3rd gear is underdriven or overdriven. Take a wrench and rotate the front shifter shaft clockwise which will put the gearbox in 3rd gear. Now rotate the front shaft exactly 1 turn while watching the output shaft. If it goes less than 1 turn it's a conventional 4 speed. If the output goes more than 1 turn it's an overdrive box.

This thread has a couple of good dimension charts
[/URL][/URL]
1 turn of the input shaft in third gear, gave me 3/4 turn at the out put shaft end
 
1/.75=1.33 ratio = the close ratio T/A gear set of
2.47-1.77-1.34-1.00
To use a Chevy trans behind a Mopar, you install an adapter Bellhouse, a GM clutch-disc, and matching TO bearing and fork.
But before you get too excited, you still have to deal with the GM Speed-O drive gearing. and IDK about the yoke or the shifter-pad location.

By ratio; There were four 1x23 input A833-boxes for Mopars.
3.09-1.92-1.40-1.00; the "Commando", deep-low
2.66-1.92-1.40-1.00; the "standard" from 66>69 and beyond
2.47-1.77-1.34-1.00; the "T/A close ratio", beginning in 1970
3.09-1.67-1.00-.73od; the ultra-wide ratio, "od-box"
and there was a version with a .71od box

Which ratio you choose, will depend a lot on your combination and intended usage. See Note-1

By physical dimensions, in the Mopar Camp,
there were several variations, that I know of;
3 main boxes,
3 retainer sizes, with matching BH's
2 lengths of tailhousings,
2 cover-types with different interlock systems and forks,
3 shifter pad locations,
two types of speed-o drive gear systems,
and iron or alloy constructions.
Also found are several different BellHousings, not all of which fit properly into every Mopar body.

So the selection process for installing a Mopar A833trans into a Mopar, begins with the BH that best fits the body . Then;
Any of the boxes will bolt to almost any factory bellhouse, but the retainer has to be matched to it,to best center the trans, which will then dictate which box to use.
AFAIK any tail will bolt to any box, but the shifter-pad may end up in awkward places depending on which body-style you install it into. Where the shifter-pad ends up, dictates the shifter rods to be chosen; long of short, and the reverse rod can be an adventure. The one thing that seems to never change among the Mopars, is the trans mounting location.

I know as good as nothing about the Chevy stuff, except, AFAIK the only part in that GM box that will interchange with a Mopar is the Low gear.

Note-1
As for me, I like second gear to top out around 7000@65 mph. this takes a Roadgear (trans gear times rear gear) of around 8.70
With the Commando/Standard box, this will require a rear gear of 8.70/1.92=4.56s But with
a 1.77 T/A box, needs 4.88s, and with
the 1.67 od box requires 5.28s
Thus with all of these, still in Second gear, 32.5mph will be half-rpm= 3500rpm which is a great place to to launch from, with almost any Mopar engine.
The problems start with what happens in First gear, and again with the cruising rpm.
About the lowest First gear ratio I would entertain for my hot-rod 367, is 11/1 Roadgear. None of these boxes will marry a 65=7000 in Second, with an 11/1 starter gear; so right away, I have to make a compromise. And for street use, the 11/1 starter-gear ceiling trumps, where it tops out at in Second gear. And the cruse rpm trumps them all. This makes choosing the rear gear easy, and then matching the other gears to the application, and then fine-tuning the power-delivery with engine torque.
For example;
3.23s will cruise at around 65=2600 in Direct Fourth. Thus you have Starter-gear choices of 3.23 times one of; 3.09/2.66/2.47 equals 9.98/8.59/7.98 and; Unless you got a BB engine, your only choice is likely to be the 9.98, and so your only trans choice is the 3.09 low, which comes in two flavors, namely; the Commando or the OverDrive.
Which one you chose will depend on your engines ability to pull the ultra-wide ratios in the od-box ..... or not.
But if you have a hi-torque engine then, the 8.59 Starter gear could also be on your radar. But be advised, that 1.77 Second gear, with the 3.23s, will get you 84mph@6000, which is waaaaaay up there for a streeter and you may only rarely be able to go there. Whereas 65mph in 1.77 Second is only 4630rpm, so if your looking for Rapid Transit, anything less than a BB, is not gonna be competative. But the T/A box is a great fun-choice for a stout 318 with a Short-period cam in it , and more than 3.23s out back, loke maybe 3.73s, which will get you a Starter of 3.73 x 2.47= 9.21, and 65=5340rpm which will like a cam that power-peaks around 5000/5100.
If you want more Power off-the-line, you go with a 360 engine/3.55s and a new cam that power-peaks a lil lower.
In either case, you would pump the pressure up as high as you have anti-knock gas for, to maintain the low-rpm energy.
But if you just want low-ET in the zero to 60 arena, then, that takes you back to gearing the car to run out of power just before 60 mph, in Second gear, at as high an rpm that you dare to spin, and with the supporting cam and heads ........ but be advised, you cannot harness all that power on the street anyway, so now you are building a different car.......
Just so you know, my favorite combo is the A833 Commando with 3.55s, and a cam no bigger than [email protected] cam. To marry that, I used a 360 engine @ 11/1Scr that produced near 195psi. This produced a killer bottom end that takes off at any rpm, yet with 3.23s cruises at 2600 with 27" tires. The 360 is way more engine than the chassis can handle and I believe, a 318 would have sufficed. But you know, I had at least one example of every LA SBM ever built, so the 360 was a natural choice. I did not know that alloy heads would support 195 psi until I built one, so was not expecting as powerful a 360 as I got. Knowing this now, after the fact, a 340 would have been plenty. and a 318 would have just spun the tires not as badly as her bigger brothers.
But you know, the 360 falls together at 10.7 Dcr, cheap and easy at 335hp with the alloy heads, so it was kindof a "no-Brainer" for me. Plus with a 224 cam, it made fabulous fuel-mileage, in overdrive.
 
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What would it mean if it was an overdrive gearbox? Less robust or less in value ?
Depends on if you want an overdrive final gear, and yeh, they were some weaker. What Mopar (and others including Ford) did was to essentially turn the 3/4 shift lever upside down, so that the shifter treated the old 3rd gear in the gearbox as 4th gear, AKA the OD box shifted the actual gearbox 1-2-4-3 as you moved the lever 1-2-3-4

Sound like it is a conventional "straight through" 4 speed. That input shaft is weird.
 
With the look of the input, and 18 spline, and has Liberty modified gears and no synchros, it's probably an old box from someone's MP Chevy race car or something similar. I bought a couple used years ago from a Chevy guy; they even used them in Chevy Pro Stock for a short time until Lencos. Tossed the input shafts they came with and put Chrysler ones back in them to use in my Dodge.
 
the shaft on the left is 6-3/4" from the thin machined flange right above where the snap ring goes. it is a homemade slick-shift with every other tooth ground off.
the other one is a Liberty prepped shaft with their ring welded on and it is 7" long. the end appears to be 3/4". best I can do with a tape measure. there are also
12 weld beads holding the ring on.

S1051627.JPG
 
In my opinion someone installed that transmission on a motor that wasn’t drilled for a 4-speed so they had to shorten the shaft. If it were my car I would change the crank and change the input shaft.
 
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1/.75=1.33 ratio = the close ratio T/A gear set of
2.47-1.77-1.34-1.00
To use a Chevy trans behind a Mopar, you install an adapter Bellhouse, a GM clutch-disc, and matching TO bearing and fork.
But before you get too excited, you still have to deal with the GM Speed-O drive gearing. and IDK about the yoke or the shifter-pad location.

By ratio; There were four 1x23 input A833-boxes for Mopars.
3.09-1.92-1.40-1.00; the "Commando", deep-low
2.66-1.92-1.40-1.00; the "standard" from 66>69 and beyond
2.47-1.77-1.34-1.00; the "T/A close ratio", beginning in 1970
3.09-1.67-1.00-.73od; the ultra-wide ratio, "od-box"
and there was a version with a .71od box

Which ratio you choose, will depend a lot on your combination and intended usage. See Note-1

By physical dimensions, in the Mopar Camp,
there were several variations, that I know of;
3 main boxes,
3 retainer sizes, with matching BH's
2 lengths of tailhousings,
2 cover-types with different interlock systems and forks,
3 shifter pad locations,
two types of speed-o drive gear systems,
and iron or alloy constructions.
Also found are several different BellHousings, not all of which fit properly into every Mopar body.

So the selection process for installing a Mopar A833trans into a Mopar, begins with the BH that best fits the body . Then;
Any of the boxes will bolt to almost any factory bellhouse, but the retainer has to be matched to it,to best center the trans, which will then dictate which box to use.
AFAIK any tail will bolt to any box, but the shifter-pad may end up in awkward places depending on which body-style you install it into. Where the shifter-pad ends up, dictates the shifter rods to be chosen; long of short, and the reverse rod can be an adventure. The one thing that seems to never change among the Mopars, is the trans mounting location.

I know as good as nothing about the Chevy stuff, except, AFAIK the only part in that GM box that will interchange with a Mopar is the Low gear.

Note-1
As for me, I like second gear to top out around 7000@65 mph. this takes a Roadgear (trans gear times rear gear) of around 8.70
With the Commando/Standard box, this will require a rear gear of 8.70/1.92=4.56s But with
a 1.77 T/A box, needs 4.88s, and with
the 1.67 od box requires 5.28s
Thus with all of these, still in Second gear, 32.5mph will be half-rpm= 3500rpm which is a great place to to launch from, with almost any Mopar engine.
The problems start with what happens in First gear, and again with the cruising rpm.
About the lowest First gear ratio I would entertain for my hot-rod 367, is 11/1 Roadgear. None of these boxes will marry a 65=7000 in Second, with an 11/1 starter gear; so right away, I have to make a compromise. And for street use, the 11/1 starter-gear ceiling trumps, where it tops out at in Second gear. And the cruse rpm trumps them all. This makes choosing the rear gear easy, and then matching the other gears to the application, and then fine-tuning the power-delivery with engine torque.
For example;
3.23s will cruise at around 65=2600 in Direct Fourth. Thus you have Starter-gear choices of 3.23 times one of; 3.09/2.66/2.47 equals 9.98/8.59/7.98 and; Unless you got a BB engine, your only choice is likely to be the 9.98, and so your only trans choice is the 3.09 low, which comes in two flavors, namely; the Commando or the OverDrive.
Which one you chose will depend on your engines ability to pull the ultra-wide ratios in the od-box ..... or not.
But if you have a hi-torque engine then, the 8.59 Starter gear could also be on your radar. But be advised, that 1.77 Second gear, with the 3.23s, will get you 84mph@6000, which is waaaaaay up there for a streeter and you may only rarely be able to go there. Whereas 65mph in 1.77 Second is only 4630rpm, so if your looking for Rapid Transit, anything less than a BB, is not gonna be competative. But the T/A box is a great fun-choice for a stout 318 with a Short-period cam in it , and more than 3.23s out back, loke maybe 3.73s, which will get you a Starter of 3.73 x 2.47= 9.21, and 65=5340rpm which will like a cam that power-peaks around 5000/5100.
If you want more Power off-the-line, you go with a 360 engine/3.55s and a new cam that power-peaks a lil lower.
In either case, you would pump the pressure up as high as you have anti-knock gas for, to maintain the low-rpm energy.
But if you just want low-ET in the zero to 60 arena, then, that takes you back to gearing the car to run out of power just before 60 mph, in Second gear, at as high an rpm that you dare to spin, and with the supporting cam and heads ........ but be advised, you cannot harness all that power on the street anyway, so now you are building a different car.......
Just so you know, my favorite combo is the A833 Commando with 3.55s, and a cam no bigger than [email protected] cam. To marry that, I used a 360 engine @ 11/1Scr that produced near 195psi. This produced a killer bottom end that takes off at any rpm, yet with 3.23s cruises at 2600 with 27" tires. The 360 is way more engine than the chassis can handle and I believe, a 318 would have sufficed. But you know, I had at least one example of every LA SBM ever built, so the 360 was a natural choice. I did not know that alloy heads would support 195 psi until I built one, so was not expecting as powerful a 360 as I got. Knowing this now, after the fact, a 340 would have been plenty. and a 318 would have just spun the tires not as badly as her bigger brothers.
But you know, the 360 falls together at 10.7 Dcr, cheap and easy at 335hp with the alloy heads, so it was kindof a "no-Brainer" for me. Plus with a 224 cam, it made fabulous fuel-mileage, in overdrive.
extremely helpful and informative write up thanks,

i do have a 360 thats in a car but id say that will keep the 727

it seems like this input shaft is too short but about 1 1/2" just at the pilot/spigot bearing end, i was thinking to prep and full pen weld and extension to the end and pop it in the lathe and machine it true, is this not advisable?

the TO bearing surface and clutch spline is the same length as my other a833, is just the pilot/spigot bearing end that a touch too short

are these adapter bellhousing a little bit more shallower that the normal mopar bellhousings of 7 3/8?

i can make a dog leg shifter so its not too big a issue but good to know

it seems like the tail housing is pretty close to a A body also

the pilot/spigot bearing end is smaller in diameter so ill have to machine up a custom id od bearing

IMG_5661.jpg


IMG_5663.jpg
 
Depends on if you want an overdrive final gear, and yeh, they were some weaker. What Mopar (and others including Ford) did was to essentially turn the 3/4 shift lever upside down, so that the shifter treated the old 3rd gear in the gearbox as 4th gear, AKA the OD box shifted the actual gearbox 1-2-4-3 as you moved the lever 1-2-3-4

Sound like it is a conventional "straight through" 4 speed. That input shaft is weird.
ok so its not a total lemon, i understand what you mean about the 1243 and 1234

the tail housings are pretty much the same also

If i could make the snub an inch longer I would be sorted ! have you heard of people full prep the end and welding a extension to the end ?

IMG_5634.jpg


IMG_5635.jpg


IMG_5636.jpg


IMG_5637.jpg
 
With the look of the input, and 18 spline, and has Liberty modified gears and no synchros, it's probably an old box from someone's MP Chevy race car or something similar. I bought a couple used years ago from a Chevy guy; they even used them in Chevy Pro Stock for a short time until Lencos. Tossed the input shafts they came with and put Chrysler ones back in them to use in my Dodge.
that does make sense,

i spoke to brewers and its a 1000-1500$ job to get it sorted

whats MP chevy ?

im 99% sure it has a red stripe liberty gear set in it

where did you get the chrysler input shafts from ?

liberty gears (2).jpg


liberty gears (3).jpg


liberty gears (4).jpg


liberty gears (5).jpg
 
the shaft on the left is 6-3/4" from the thin machined flange right above where the snap ring goes. it is a homemade slick-shift with every other tooth ground off.
the other one is a Liberty prepped shaft with their ring welded on and it is 7" long. the end appears to be 3/4". best I can do with a tape measure. there are also
12 weld beads holding the ring on.

View attachment 1716100569
any photos are welcome and appreciated

perfect perfect, very similar to mine, my end just need an extra inch and id would be sorted

input new (5).jpg


input old (5).jpg
 
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