Help - Grease able Pivot Shafts

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I did call them again today and just sent them the pictures this afternoon.

I am going back to my parents place this weekend. The new shaft is still pressed into the bushing in the LCA. Ill try and get a picture of that shaft lined up with the OEM shaft at the flange.

But when I lined the two up, they were both the same length with the same amount of threads
 
So Hotchkis did send me new shafts last week. This time they are actually black. However they are still sticking to the 60 ft-lbs for the Pivot nut torque. So Ill get that a shot this weekend and report back
 
just remember the original vulcanized rubber bushing does provide some torsional
resistance to lower A arm deflection.This is all lost with hard plastic (read poly) or greaseable bushings.
..as most know, that is why you torque them at ride height or they will be permanently deformed and you'll tell everyone those cheap oem rubber bushings didn't last a year.
 
Listen you believe what you want. None of my parts are on wrong nor are they wore.. Think about this.

Why would you not tighten down the bushing bolts before it is at ride height?

Because! if they rip they will not hold the arm from moving on the pin. The bushing must hold the pin as one to the LCA. so it needs to stretch the same distance in each dirrectin

I am telling you if you back my car up and hit the brakes the arm slides back on the pin. The bushing is sliding back on the pin.

The strut rod is not at the end of the control arm and it acts as a pivot point using the spindle as a lever.

There is a reason that when they designed the bushing it has a inner and outer steel sleeve that were bonded together as one. and when they rip you replace them.

Go-pro/film a set working.

I have seen k-members on stands with both set ups. The standard suspension with stock bushings is stiff and can hardly be moved.

The standard suspension with poly bushings and with the adjustable struts that pivot, Was on a stand here. If you wanted to with force you could slide lowers half way off of the pins. With a swivel on the strut rod they are not going to stiff arm anything from moving.

I am only telling you what we have found on cars that went through the shop. My Duster started us looking for the cause of alignment change while backing up after a burnout. but as soon as you went forward it would straighten out. Its what we found.

If you install a quality factory style bushings the correct way with torsion bars they last a long time.

With coil overs I would go to a complete aftermarket K-member and suspension.

on a factory suspension I won't ever use poly again in the lowers or strut rods . Sorry we can't agrree but not everyone has to agree and I hold no grudge. Unless!! we end up at the same race track someday.. LOL






This. The appears the fractured pin ran out of threads. Whether that's a design flaw with the length of the pin or a problem with the K member I'm not sure, but based on where it fractured that's what happened.

As far as the torque specs go, I know that Firm Feel greaseable pivot pins get torqued to 100 ft/lbs. I have greaseable pivot pins on all of my cars, with tens of thousands of miles on them between them, and no issues whatsoever.

I would call Hotchkis. They ARE a reputable company. I have some of their parts on my Challenger, and all are well made. I did have an issue with the heim joints on my Hotchkis UCA's failing after about 7k miles, and after talking with Hotchkis they replaced all of them at no cost to me. I would definitely talk to Hotchkis. The manufacturing process is not 100% perfect, it could be that there was a metallurgic issue with the pin as well. And that could mean that there's a "batch" of pins with issues. If that's the case, Hotchkis needs to know about it.



You're wrong. About all of it. This isn't the first time you've posted this, nor is it the first time I've responded.

The bonded rubber of the OE pivot pin bushings DOES NOT secure the LCA. No engineer worth his salt would create a design that required rubber bonding to keep a lower control arm from moving fore/aft. It's simply not designed for those kinds of loads, and is not capable of supporting those kinds of loads, period.

The torsion bar does keep the LCA from moving, but only within a range. The torsion bar can slide back and forth a bit in the socket, but even with the torsion bar all the way back the LCA can't come off of the pin. When the rubber bonding of the rubber LCA bushings fail, as it often does, it is in fact the torsion bar that keeps the LCA from falling off the car. I know this for a fact because I have seen LCA's fall off the pins after the torsion bar and strut rods are removed, because the stock LCA bushings were shot.

It is in fact the job of the strut rod to locate the LCA fore/aft. That is in fact it's only purpose, and the reason that they were included in the design of the suspension. They serve no other purpose. If the LCA was positively located by the LCA bushings, you wouldn't need the strut rod.

In the stock system, the strut rods are a generic length, and have a bit of play from the thick rubber bushings they use at the K frame. If installed properly, the rubber LCA bushings maintain their rubber bonding to the steel inserts, and between that bonding and the additional give in all of the rubber bushings the LCA is located within a range small enough for a decent alignment. It's not perfect, and if you think there's no play in the LCA fore/aft you're mistaken. If you removed the strut rod from the system, the rubber bonding would fail in short order and your LCA would travel fore/aft with the torsion bar, as much as the torsion bar can move in the socket.

When using a poly LCA bushing there are several changes. The poly insert isn't bonded to anything, although it should fit snugly to the pivot shaft and into the steel insert in the LCA, to the point that it should actually require a light press to install. If it doesn't, the stock shell is worn out or too large in its tolerances, or the bushing is undersize. This is actually the issue with the poly bushings. The stock steel inserts are not all the same size, and can be damaged when the rubber wears out and the pin starts moving around in the bushing. Because the fit of the poly bushing can vary, so does the ease with which the pin can move in and out of the K and LCA. The poly bushings also have less give in the material, which means when using them the LCA must be more accurately located. Since the stock strut rods were generic they are NOT a good choice when using poly bushings. Adjustable strut rods should be used to more accurately locate the LCA. This also solve the issue of the fore/aft movement on the poly bushings. Even with a light press, the LCA can move more easily against the poly bushing than with the rubber bonding of the originals. Using an adjustable strut rods solves this issue, as it eliminates the additional play of the rubber strut rod bushings and allows you to more accurately locate the LCA where it needs to be.

There is nothing really wrong the design of the poly bushings. They do depend on the tolerances of the steel bushing shells in the LCA, so they aren't the best solution out there anymore (BAC's Delrin bushings are much better). But that doesn't mean they won't work if you take the time to install them properly. And there is nothing wrong with the greaseable pins either (at least in general). I have had poly bushings, greaseable pins, and adjustable strut rods on my street driven cars for 10's of thousands of miles. I've had adjustable strut rods on my cars for over 80 thousand miles combined now. When properly installed, the LCA does not move fore/aft on the pivot pin or poly bushing. Given that I have less than a 1/2", and in some places less than a 1/4" of clearance between my tires and the hard parts on my cars (frame, fenders, braces, etc) I would know immediately if my LCA's moved much in any direction, as my tires would start rubbing on the body/frame of my car. That's true on my Challenger and my Duster.

Your LCA's move around on your car because your installation was incorrect in some way. The bushings might be too loose in the shells, or the strut rods are the wrong length, or the K frame mounts are worn out, but something isn't right. Poly bushings do not function the exact same way as the OE bushings did, and you can't expect them to. Other considerations have to be taken into account, and while they aren't mandatory adjustable strut rods should really be used with poly LCA bushings. Also, because the shape of the poly bushing is different, the shoulder on the LCA pivot pin should be different as well. It is different on most of the greaseable pivot pins because they were designed for use with the poly bushings. If you re-use the stock pivots, the shoulder on the pivot isn't quite right for the poly bushings. You wouldn't install a high lift cam in your engine without the proper valve springs or rocker gear, and by the same token you shouldn't expect the poly bushings to work as intended if you don't make some additional suspension upgrades.
 
This isn't really a "agree to disagree" situation. If your LCA walks around on your pivot pin something is wrong. And it's not just because you have poly LCA bushings.

Want to know how I know? This is one of my cars. It has poly LCA bushings, greaseable LCA pivots, and adjustable strut rods (as all of my cars do). The LCA bushing is right up against the shoulder on the pivot, and it doesn't move fore/aft on the pivot shaft regardless of how you turn the wheel, back up, brake, etc. This is what it should look like, and that's how it's supposed to work.

IMG_2790_zpsj1t3mbyg.jpg


If that's not how your poly LCA bushings look at all times, well, something is wrong. And if they slide around on the pivot shaft, something is wrong. All 3 of my cars are the same, it's not a fluke, it's the way it's supposed to be.

Personally, I wouldn't drive a car if the LCA's were sliding around on the pivot pins under any conditions. If you want to rip out the poly bushings and replace them with rubber ones be my guest, but you shouldn't leave it the way it is now.
 
I don't have a side in the argument, but if you don't mind, what keeps the LCA in your picture from sliding forward when backing up and applying the brakes? There is what appears to be 1/2" to 3/4" of bushing protruding from the LCA shell. What is there to stop the LCA from sliding shell and all over the bushing going toward the K frame?

Again, I am not arguing here. I am merely asking a question, because I cannot see how the arm could possibly stay in the same position with that much force being exerted. The strut rod cannot be in play there, since it is on the opposite end of the control arm. Help me understand.


This isn't really a "agree to disagree" situation. If your LCA walks around on your pivot pin something is wrong. And it's not just because you have poly LCA bushings.

Want to know how I know? This is one of my cars. It has poly LCA bushings, greaseable LCA pivots, and adjustable strut rods (as all of my cars do). The LCA bushing is right up against the shoulder on the pivot, and it doesn't move fore/aft on the pivot shaft regardless of how you turn the wheel, back up, brake, etc. This is what it should look like, and that's how it's supposed to work.

IMG_2790_zpsj1t3mbyg.jpg


If that's not how your poly LCA bushings look at all times, well, something is wrong. And if they slide around on the pivot shaft, something is wrong. All 3 of my cars are the same, it's not a fluke, it's the way it's supposed to be.

Personally, I wouldn't drive a car if the LCA's were sliding around on the pivot pins under any conditions. If you want to rip out the poly bushings and replace them with rubber ones be my guest, but you shouldn't leave it the way it is now.
 
The strut rod IS in play, that's what its there for. I have exact set up as blue on my ride and have had nothing but trouble free service for what now is about 7-8 years.
 
The strut rod IS in play, that's what its there for. I have exact set up as blue on my ride and have had nothing but trouble free service for what now is about 7-8 years.

Like I said. I am not arguing. But I cannot see the strut rod holding the opposite end of the control arm stable.
 
It looks like the shaft is too long - if you look at where the threaded section starts on the new shaft versus the original shaft, it is off by quite a bit. Like others have said, you ran out of threads and the shaft broke.

I'm guessing that you got the B/E shafts by accident. It's possible that they were mis-labeled. This would explain the difference in length.

What's the overall length of the shaft that broke? Or, since it may have elongated - the shaft on the other side that didn't break? Can you post a side-by-side of the unbroken shaft and the original shaft, with the two of them lined up at the flange?

I noticed that too, those two shafts are quite different.
 
Because of the way the strut rod is bolted to the lower arm, and the angle of the strut rod, it will keep lower arm stable horizontally. even the strut rod bushings will keep arms in place, but not like you might think. It works because it keeps the strut rod from moving left to right or up and down, not just in and out. It is because of the angle.
 
Because of the way the strut rod is bolted to the lower arm, and the angle of the strut rod, it will keep lower arm stable horizontally. even the strut rod bushings will keep arms in place, but not like you might think. It works because it keeps the strut rod from moving left to right or up and down, not just in and out. It is because of the angle.

What he said.

In addition, I use adjustable strut rods, which have a single pivot at the k frame and NO bushings. They're incompressible, unlike the stock strut rods which have bushings at the K frame that can compress.

The other part of that is the visible part of the bushing is polyurethane. It's not incompressible, but it resists compression MUCH better than a rubber bushing. There isn't much flex there, even if the strut rod wasn't preventing the LCA from moving. The bushing is wedged between the LCA and the shoulder on the pivot pin, and the pivot pin is against the K on the other side. It's not a rubber bushing you're going to compress a 1/4". But that's moot because the strut rod keeps it from moving.

I've said it before, I don't run enough tire clearance to have my LCA's move about. If my LCA's moved when backing or turning, my tires would hit my fenders somewhere. I've had to modify my fenders, fender braces, corners of the wheel openings, and tune with a set of 3mm spacers just to keep the tires from rubbing when nothing out of the ordinary moves. There's no room for that much slop at the LCA. They don't move.
 
as the lower control arm does its job of traveling up and down vertically, the strut rod end at the control arm swings up and down in an arc, moving the control arm slightly front and back
 
as the lower control arm does its job of traveling up and down vertically, the strut rod end at the control arm swings up and down in an arc, moving the control arm slightly front and back

Yeah but it's a TINY amount. The strut rod is longer than the LCA so the arc is larger, and the arc it travels in is at an angle to the LCA which minimizes the effect of the LCA's vertical travel.

And, if you install larger torsion bars you reduce the amount of suspension travel, reducing the distance both the LCA and strut rod travel along the arc. That's why the adjustable strut rods have to be carefully tuned for their length, and why they're superior to the non-adjustable kind. If the length of the strut rod isn't matched properly, it causes binding in the LCA as it travels. Which is true even in the stock system with the rubber bushing, the LCA doesn't like to flex very far in either direction, hence the binding. But it's more important with the poly bushings because they flex even less.
 
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