Help Please! Sagging Front end, can't adjust Ride Height at all.

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SGaringer

SGaringer

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Hello! I am a new member, but have read this site for years. I have a 1972 Dart drag car, it has a 505 BB with a motorplate. QA1 suspension up front and ladder bar in the back with (currently) a 727, but am going glide with it. I just ordered 1.03 torsion bars from PST to hopefully correct this issue, but am really interested in learning what else I can look at? I also just changed the springs on the coil over shocks for the ladder bar , but made no difference. The right front is 1.5 inches lower the the left, and when I launch the car it definitely goes to the right. also, when I jack the front up the left front tire leaves the ground and is 3 inches in the air before the right leaves. Everything looks like it should, I don't see any damage or anything amiss. The QA1 setup is about a year old with limited racing on it. I currently have it sanded getting ready to paint.

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Inspect the torsion bar cross member VERY closely where the torsion bars anchor into it. Sometimes you get rust there and sometimes the anchors crack and break from stress.
 
SGaringer said:
I plan on getting it in the air tonight and will inspect!
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That's the best way! You can see it all good then. Hopefully, all that's wrong is the torsion bars are just shot.
 
How did you install the torsion bars and where were the adjuster bolts set when installed?
 
I will have to confirm where I have the line. The adjuster in the stock K frame were about half way adjusted up. I tried that with the QA1 k member and that's where I really had to adjust it up on the right side, it was nearly maxed out, but the left side was about half.
 
When installing the bars, the adjusters should be about as equal as you can get them by eye. Be sure the lower arms are as far down as possible when installing the bars. With the BBM in it I would run the adjusters as far down as I could, this would allow more adjustment once installed. I forget which bars I had in my big block A body, but I had them in and out multiple times to finally get the ride height I wanted. Also, don't forget if the bars have been out a considerable amount of time there will be some drooping as they have memory and return to the original state.
 
There is a left and a right to torsion bars, make sure you don't have them swapped in side for side.

Also check to see that the torsion bars are not the same part numbers. 2 left torsion bars can defiantly create the low ride height on the passenger side as the torsion spring twist would be azz-backwards for the passenger side.

* * * * *
 
T bars are numbered, odd/ even. Odd no. goes on driver's side. Does not matter which end is which.
 
Just had a valiant here with the same problem. The cage was installed with the car un an unlevel surface and the down tubes were holding the chassis crooked. That is on thing to check.


One other thing to check easily done is, Jack the car up in the center of the rear and level the front with the adjustment bolts. the bolts are very seldom the same when leveling the front of the car.

look how far this car was when arriving to be fixed. With no engine in the car and sitting on a level floor you could spin the right front wheel while the left was on the ground. This was done at a chassis race shop in Easton Pa. MCR. They do all there work on the lift or floor. They don't have chassis table.

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All mentioned above is right on, one other question. What are your plans for this car? If drag racing you are going the wrong way in Torsion bars. 1.03 will not transfer the weight well. Most use /6 bars or lighter.
 
To add, I seem to remember there being an aftermarket torsion bar that was manufactured with the wrong “clock” that would cause this for some people.
 
71GSSDemon said:
All mentioned above is right on, one other question. What are your plans for this car? If drag racing you are going the wrong way in Torsion bars. 1.03 will not transfer the weight well. Most use /6 bars or lighter.
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I have read this, but is this just what was done in the past to get the cars to hook? I have no issue there hooking between 1.29 and 1.32 60'. It also does a decent wheelie, so I don't want to smash an oil pan on the way down?
 
SGaringer said:
I have read this, but is this just what was done in the past to get the cars to hook? I have no issue there hooking between 1.29 and 1.32 60'. It also does a decent wheelie, so I don't want to smash an oil pan on the way down?
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It seems the car is set up and hooking well. Was this with the 1.03 or the 0.980? I am curious to see if those times slow down if you had the smaller bars during this time.
 
Demonracer said:
When installing the bars, the adjusters should be about as equal as you can get them by eye. Be sure the lower arms are as far down as possible when installing the bars.
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Nope nope nope.

If you have stock LCA's and a stock K frame then you can let them hang down all the way for install, the LCA hits the K frame and you install the bars at that point or close to it. That's absolutely the wrong way to install the QA1 tubular LCA's, regardless of the K frame. And with a QA1 K even the stock LCA install can't be letting the arms hang down all the way.

The problem is with the QA1 LCA's they won't hit the K frame at any point. They will literally hang straight down, and if you install the torsion bars at that point you will have clocked the torsion bars incorrectly. So you have to choose the right angle for the LCA based on the torsion bar size. For bars that are around 1" the LCA should probably be at about a 45° down angle from the frame rail. For larger bars the angle will have to be shallower (closer to the angle at final ride height). For smaller bars the angle will have to be a little steeper.

For the 1.03" bars the OP is going to install, I'd start at about a 45° angle and see which hex flat was closest to that LCA angle. If you want the car to sit higher, use the flat that produces a steeper angle, if you want the car to sit lower, choose the shallower angle.
 
72bluNblu said:
Nope nope nope.

If you have stock LCA's and a stock K frame then you can let them hang down all the way for install, the LCA hits the K frame and you install the bars at that point or close to it. That's absolutely the wrong way to install the QA1 tubular LCA's, regardless of the K frame. And with a QA1 K even the stock LCA install can't be letting the arms hang down all the way.

The problem is with the QA1 LCA's they won't hit the K frame at any point. They will literally hang straight down, and if you install the torsion bars at that point you will have clocked the torsion bars incorrectly. So you have to choose the right angle for the LCA based on the torsion bar size. For bars that are around 1" the LCA should probably be at about a 45° down angle from the frame rail. For larger bars the angle will have to be shallower (closer to the angle at final ride height). For smaller bars the angle will have to be a little steeper.

For the 1.03" bars the OP is going to install, I'd start at about a 45° angle and see which hex flat was closest to that LCA angle. If you want the car to sit higher, use the flat that produces a steeper angle, if you want the car to sit lower, choose the shallower angle.
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Awesome notes! I most likely had the hanging when I put it together! I will disassemble and try it this way! Thanks!
 
Why would you install the t bar into the LCA without the spindle/UCA installed? That is what limits the travel upon install. And as Demonracer said, I let them hang down as far as the suspension will travel. I also clearance the frame to the tubular UCA can travel further. That is what hangs up the suspension on my GTS. UCA to frame rail interference, then ball joint operating angle gets maxed out.


I would guess you simply have a faulty torsion bar. Other worn parts may be discovered as the suspension is disassembled. FWIW the GTS has the original torsion bars that is was born with (.890?). I tried a used set of small block bars and has similar results to what you are describing. I have tossed several bad bars over the years for this reason.
 
Oldmanmopar said:
The cage was installed with the car un an unlevel surface and the down tubes were holding the chassis crooked
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The pretzel effect, seen a few cars turned into a pretzel before the frame was tied and cage welded in.
 
fishmens67 said:
The pretzel effect, seen a few cars turned into a pretzel before the frame was tied and cage welded in.
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I has to fix my red 66 Charger after racing it for a few years after I removed the 6pt bar and did not get around to doing the new cage. It went out of square when I removed the frame ties lol. Major bummer!
 
Jeremiah said:
Why would you install the t bar into the LCA without the spindle/UCA installed? That is what limits the travel upon install. And as Demonracer said, I let them hang down as far as the suspension will travel. I also clearance the frame to the tubular UCA can travel further. That is what hangs up the suspension on my GTS. UCA to frame rail interference, then ball joint operating angle gets maxed out.


I would guess you simply have a faulty torsion bar. Other worn parts may be discovered as the suspension is disassembled. FWIW the GTS has the original torsion bars that is was born with (.890?). I tried a used set of small block bars and has similar results to what you are describing. I have tossed several bad bars over the years for this reason.
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Oh lets count the ways

1. If you try to install the torsion bar with the UCA and spindle attached, the LCA will not hang down far enough to easily get the torsion bar into the LCA socket. If you leave those attached, you have to remove the upper bump stop, otherwise the LCA won't hang low enough, even with all stock parts. It's literally in the FSM.

2. If you're not using a stock torsion bar, the hex offset on the bar may be different than stock. Which again means that with the UCA and spindle attached, you might not be able to get the LCA socket into the correct position.

3. It's a zillion times easier to manipulate the position of the LCA without the rest of the suspension already attached

4. Depending on how long your UCA bump stops have been installed, and their quality, you may spin the stud in the bump stop, and therefore ruin the UCA bump stop trying to remove it.

With the stock K and LCA, the LCA hits the K frame before it hangs down all that far. With tubular UCA's, it's pretty much required that you clearance the UCA mounts so full travel is necessary. This is required, not a trick to get the suspension to hang lower. You shouldn't have to clearance anything to get a tubular LCA to have more range of motion than it will have when everything else is installed.

I've installed stock torsion bars and aftermarket torsion bars, with stock UCA's and LCA's and aftermarket UCA's and LCA's. By far the easiest way to install (and remove!) torsion bars is with the LCA unhooked from the spindle and UCA. By far. So that's why I do it that way.
 
72bluNblu said:
Oh lets count the ways

1. If you try to install the torsion bar with the UCA and spindle attached, the LCA will not hang down far enough to easily get the torsion bar into the LCA socket. If you leave those attached, you have to remove the upper bump stop, otherwise the LCA won't hang low enough, even with all stock parts. It's literally in the FSM.

2. If you're not using a stock torsion bar, the hex offset on the bar may be different than stock. Which again means that with the UCA and spindle attached, you might not be able to get the LCA socket into the correct position.

3. It's a zillion times easier to manipulate the position of the LCA without the rest of the suspension already attached

4. Depending on how long your UCA bump stops have been installed, and their quality, you may spin the stud in the bump stop, and therefore ruin the UCA bump stop trying to remove it.

With the stock K and LCA, the LCA hits the K frame before it hangs down all that far. With tubular UCA's, it's pretty much required that you clearance the UCA mounts so full travel is necessary. This is required, not a trick to get the suspension to hang lower. You shouldn't have to clearance anything to get a tubular LCA to have more range of motion than it will have when everything else is installed.

I've installed stock torsion bars and aftermarket torsion bars, with stock UCA's and LCA's and aftermarket UCA's and LCA's. By far the easiest way to install (and remove!) torsion bars is with the LCA unhooked from the spindle and UCA. By far. So that's why I do it that way.
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Oaaaaaky lol

That is a whole lot of talking points.

By assembling the steering knuckle with no bump stop the maximum downward working angle of the LCA can be eatablished.

From there you can figure out if the bars slide in at maximum suspension travel. It's a drag car so upward suspension travel is of importance.

Five of our cars are set up this way. Same old combo - Tubular UCA, adjustable strut rod, poly LCA bushings + greasable pins, good shocks.

Interesting to hear other perspectives on something like this.
 
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Also, excessive preload on a ladder bar can cause the front end not to be level. There is preload on the ladder bar and the rear coil springs that could affect your front height. Just because the rear springs were changed, doesn’t mean they are correct.
 
SGaringer said:
Hello! I am a new member, but have read this site for years. I have a 1972 Dart drag car, it has a 505 BB with a motorplate. QA1 suspension up front and ladder bar in the back with (currently) a 727, but am going glide with it. I just ordered 1.03 torsion bars from PST to hopefully correct this issue, but am really interested in learning what else I can look at? I also just changed the springs on the coil over shocks for the ladder bar , but made no difference. The right front is 1.5 inches lower the the left, and when I launch the car it definitely goes to the right. also, when I jack the front up the left front tire leaves the ground and is 3 inches in the air before the right leaves. Everything looks like it should, I don't see any damage or anything amiss. The QA1 setup is about a year old with limited racing on it. I currently have it sanded getting ready to paint.

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Do you have any pictures of the rear suspension?
 
TT5.9mag said:
To add, I seem to remember there being an aftermarket torsion bar that was manufactured with the wrong “clock” that would cause this for some people.
Click to expand...

That was PST’s 1.03 bars and was fixed years ago.
I remember because I was waiting for the fixed bars before I ordered mine.
 
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